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Post by Orly on Feb 1, 2013 9:56:23 GMT -5
Well, as someone with no dog in the hunt, I think Bart made some very valid points but took things a bit personally and went off the deep end.
Cowboy's take on things are spot on. At the end, for those of you offered a position, it's what you do every day on the job that will define you, not some OPM score in the dust bin.
Just like the LSAT, a high OPM score is not a predictor of job success. In fact, two ALJs my old agency hired in 2008 had scores in the 80s. Then they showed up and retired on the job. I have seen enough to know every is unique, some will make great ALJs, others not so much.
But at the end, this board exists to help the candidates going through a difficult process, so can't we at least be a bit understanding and be nice about it?
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Post by 71stretch on Feb 1, 2013 14:47:19 GMT -5
Well, as someone with no dog in the hunt, I think Bart made some very valid points but took things a bit personally and went off the deep end. Cowboy's take on things are spot on. At the end, for those of you offered a position, it's what you do every day on the job that will define you, not some OPM score in the dust bin. Just like the LSAT, a high OPM score is not a predictor of job success. In fact, two ALJs my old agency hired in 2008 had scores in the 80s. Then they showed up and retired on the job. I have seen enough to know every is unique, some will make great ALJs, others not so much. But at the end, this board exists to help the candidates going through a difficult process, so can't we at least be a bit understanding and be nice about it? Nicely said, orly. Completely agree (and I barely have a dog in the hunt at this point myself.)
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Post by valkyrie on Feb 1, 2013 18:02:26 GMT -5
Awhile back I gave a pretty detailed description of the amount of sheer luck that goes into every step of the application and selection process, from OPM through SSA. Based upon the experience of some given low scores by OPM, let alone those found "not qualified," we have done a pretty good job on the Board of establishing that the OPM scoring is arbitrary. I personally know of glaring examples of candidates with experience far superior to my own that scored below me on the app. Was my score inflated, or were their scores ridiculously low? Ask OPM! Did you screw up the SSA interview, or do you just bear an unfortunate resemblance to one of the interviewer's shrewish ex-wife?
You at least have a law degree, a professional license, and assumably steady employment for the past seven years. Unless this is your last chance before financial ruin or professional oblivion, you're probably better off than most of the rest of the country...
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Post by ALJD on Feb 1, 2013 19:47:43 GMT -5
But at the end, this board exists to help the candidates going through a difficult process, so can't we at least be a bit understanding and be nice about it? Concur. I'd also like to echo the plea for some professional courtesy. For folks who used to be candidates but now are ALJs, remember what you went through and think about what it was like back then. There is nothing wrong with telling the hard truth in a calm and professional manner without sugar coating things. But let's not over do it. We are a small on-line community, and those of us who post regularly have known each other on this forum for quite a few years now. Based on our history together, I don't think anyone here really acted out of malice. So at this point, I just like to appeal for some restraint before things really get out of control. Let's go back to normal programming. Thanks.
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Post by privateatty on Feb 2, 2013 16:08:47 GMT -5
Awhile back I gave a pretty detailed description of the amount of sheer luck that goes into every step of the application and selection process, from OPM through SSA. Based upon the experience of some given low scores by OPM, let alone those found "not qualified," we have done a pretty good job on the Board of establishing that the OPM scoring is arbitrary. I personally know of glaring examples of candidates with experience far superior to my own that scored below me on the app. Was my score inflated, or were their scores ridiculously low? Ask OPM! Did you screw up the SSA interview, or do you just bear an unfortunate resemblance to one of the interviewer's shrewish ex-wife? You at least have a law degree, a professional license, and assumably steady employment for the past seven years. Unless this is your last chance before financial ruin or professional oblivion, you're probably better off than most of the rest of the country... If nothing else this Board has allowed us to share in "...the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat." (Thank you to the late Mr. McKay and ABC Sports) bartleby has stressed the importance of the SSA Interview and of course he is "spot on". The list of those whom they don't want will allow Puzzle Palace to strike them against those that they do and make hires. I think the interviewers have an idea of what type of person that they want: history of hard work, can do attitude, strict professionalism and a willingness to work with all others (and not be a prima donna or even a "go it aloner"). I also think that counsel both in and out of ODAR that are just really well thought of have a bit of an edge. We have debated in these pages the refusal on the part of SSA to take just the high scorers and use the three strike rule to be able to pick whom they want. A long time ago, maybe 5 years ago, Pixie said that SSA would hire whom they wanted, despite scores. She was right.
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Post by hrhearingofficer on Feb 2, 2013 18:03:26 GMT -5
What is the SSA interview like?
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Post by bartleby on Feb 2, 2013 19:41:43 GMT -5
This may not be the best place for this post, but I think it is germain and I hope the right people read it. As you know, Bartleby cares about you. With that said, I had an epipheny in the shower, where most of them happen. I think we can agree that GS rating helps in getting selected. A GS 15 has an advantage over a GS 12, GS 14 over a GS 13, etc. The point of this is I know some of you have been attempting to get SA, GS, and HOD positions and you know one must make the best qualified list. Now, for the bummer. IIRC, there is someplace you can view your educational qualifications. OPM gives some one with one year of college 1 point. The maximum is 10 points. I have spent more time in educational institutions than I care to admit. With that said, I was surprised to find that JD and LL.M., are given the same points as some one with a masters degree in public management or forestry. Not belittling these MA or MS programs, but.. I think they were all rated at 5 points. Ph.D., M.D., and post graduate degrees are given more points than us. So if you have competed for a GS or HOD position and got beaten out by a non-attorney, this could be part of the reason. I know this doesn't seem possible, but do not forget you are working with OPM and ODAR. If someone will please check this out and lets us know the cite, please do so. Perhaps this has been corrected, but I doubt it. This could be huge to the right people. It had slipped my mind as it no longer affected me.
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Post by mcb on Feb 3, 2013 2:51:52 GMT -5
What is the SSA interview like? My interview was conducted by an RCALJ and a HOCALJ. The information below is from the ALJ Hiring FAQ Part 1 - Intro & Hiring Process pinned thread from the general board. ( see also ALJ Hiring FAQ Part 2 - Training & Benefits & ALJ Hiring FAQ Part 3 - ODAR Background & Glossary) Is the SSA Interview different than OPM's? If so, how so? Is it scored or is it up and down thumbs?The OPM SI is just that, a structured interview with suggested ratings of possible answers, so there is a "right" or "wrong" answer. The interviewers have to come to a consensus on the score for each answer which then becomes a part of the final score on the NOR. By contrast, the SSA interview is a "fit" interview to see how you would fit into the operation. It is a performance based interview asking the candidate to give examples of their experience in handling the problems that we know will come up. There is no real "numeric" rating that goes into a final score but there is a "go" "no go" rating and room for comments. The point is to see if your past performance shows that you can handle this job. You would be very surprised at some of the answers that have been given.
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Post by philliesfan on Feb 3, 2013 10:29:27 GMT -5
One of the complaints that appears on this board are why candidates with lower scores get hired before condidates with higher scores. This may relate to each individual's performance at the SSA interview. Having spoken to a colleague who has been on some of the SSA interview panels, the impression I got was that some people perform very poorly at this step of the process and sometimes give off-the-wall answers to routine questions, which means they will probably not been hired no matter how high their OPM score was.
The SSA interview is similar to a job interview with the head of the department in which you would be working with any other company or organization. One of the things they are looking at beside you qualifications, is whether they want to work with you on a day to day basis. I know when I was a Supervisory Attorney Adviser many years ago, that was one of the things I took into consideration during a hiring interview.
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Post by workdrone on Feb 3, 2013 11:04:26 GMT -5
Having spoken to a colleague who has been on some of the SSA interview panels, the impression I got was that some people perform very poorly at this step of the process and sometimes give off-the-wall answers to routine questions, which means they will probably not been hired no matter how high their OPM score was. The SSA interview is similar to a job interview with the head of the department in which you would be working with any other company or organization. One of the things they are looking at beside you qualifications, is whether they want to work with you on a day to day basis. I know when I was a Supervisory Attorney Adviser many years ago, that was one of the things I took into consideration during a hiring interview. I agree. The OPM score only gets you to the agency interview. Once you're there, you have to "sell" yourself to the interviewers and assure them that you'll be a good fit and won't become a bad apple. Most ALJs end up staying until retirement or transfer to another agency, so SSA really want to make sure they are not hiring a problem child. Hence the agency interview and background check.
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Post by decadealj on Feb 3, 2013 13:37:05 GMT -5
My dog doesn't hunt anymore. He just wasn't fast enough. Of course the body count moved from 30 a month to 50. When I was appointed, the average age of my class of 50 ALJs was about 58 and 60% of us were formerly state or federal judges or hearing officers. You needed 7 years of trial experience in courts of record, not administrative tribunals and you had to list the judges and opposing counsel in your top ten cases. Was that better than now? Probably not but it was certainly open. You were given a written summary of each of your scores and how you compared numerically and percentage level with every other of the 500 applicants you were in competition with plus any adjusted factors in the scoring and vet preference. My score was 91.3 and it put me in the 96th percentile (the max score was 100 with your qualifications the biggest percent of your score). I think there were 14 candidates who scored higher. OPM was then qualifying entirely different people for the register. What was not good about the process? It is difficult to teach an old dog new tricks and we were not comfortable with computers. During training we went on a tour of the Alexandria SSA office and they had a WANG computer for the whole office. The staff were still using IBM selectric typewriters and carbon manifolds. Times have changed and now you have to take the written exam on a computer rather than a blue book and people like me probably couldn't even make the register. Like most old dogs, I knew I couldn't hunt any more and went to pasture. Is todays hearing process better? I don't know- before I left 30% of my records included medical records from multiple claimants and extensive records the day of and after the hearing. For the first 15 years, I read every page of every record and reps learned fast that they had better be prepared. After that I tried to ensure I at least got through the medical recrod and relied on the DDS vocational summary and activities of daily living and just told the rep if it needed correction or updating he was invited to do so. At the end, it was nothing but boiler plate garbage and certainly not a decision of which I was proud. I actually apologized to two friends who were magistrate judges for the decline in decsion quality over time. It is a different time and place but IMHO it is much harder today to get it right. Peace to all.
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Post by workdrone on Feb 3, 2013 19:31:43 GMT -5
Perhaps off topic, but does SSA hire off of usajobs for current AlJs, i.e. OMHA, USPS, NLRB ALJs who may want to become SSA ALJs? I believe it has happened in the past but is a very rare occurrence. I believe the announcement should be going through USAJOBs if it ever happens again. This scenario does not happen often because the lateral ALJ usually has to go through the four week new ALJ course with everyone else, so there is not much to be gained from the agency prospective. Much more common is the reverse situation, where OMHA and other agencies try to get transfers from SSA.
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Post by bartleby on Feb 3, 2013 21:54:22 GMT -5
I think that the other Agencies try to hire ALJ's already working for SSA. Every once in a while, we will get a solicitation. A lot od SSA ALJ's worked for these other Agencies as attorneys prior to becoming SSA ALJ's and they usually jump at the opportunity to return to their prior Agency.
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Post by workdrone on Feb 3, 2013 23:32:08 GMT -5
I think that the other Agencies try to hire ALJ's already working for SSA. Every once in a while, we will get a solicitation. A lot od SSA ALJ's worked for these other Agencies as attorneys prior to becoming SSA ALJ's and they usually jump at the opportunity to return to their prior Agency. Yes, we see at least a couple of those a year. Generally it's an e-mail from OCALJ with a link to a job announcement on USAJOBS.
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Post by valkyrie on Feb 4, 2013 10:12:46 GMT -5
The SSA interviews are where reality takes over. The people doing the hiring know how arbitrary the OPM scoring is. As already noted above, you can get extra points for having a forestry degree, but possibly get minimal points for 5 years of experience as a US Attorney because you didn't use the correct trigger language in your application.
That said, you need to remember what SSA is looking for. We obviously spend some time on the Board arguing about how SSA should be adjudicating cases vs how SSA wants cases adjudicated, and what kind of experience makes a better ALJ. What this board thinks along those lines is irrelevant to your being offered a job. All that matters is how SSA wants its cases adjudicated, and what experience SSA thinks will make a better ALJ. You can have an elite legal resume with a superior OPM score, but that won't get you the job if you sell yourself as a viciously successful litigator who meticulously prepares for his two huge trials per year with exhaustive research while ruthlessly managing a legal team. SSA wants someone who will move a high volume of work as quickly and efficently as possible. Someone who will be able to work with clerks and attorneys that are protected by a union and will not practice slice-and-dice in the hearing room. Someone that will hit the ground running, keep up the work, and not give SSA a reason to wish they had never hired them because it is so very tedious and difficult to fire an ALJ.
At the SSA interview stage, OPM, law schools, the ABA, and this Board have very little influence on who SSA hires for its ALJs. Forget that at your peril...
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Post by deltajudge on Feb 5, 2013 16:01:51 GMT -5
8-)Decade, I just remember way back yonder, a coupla of guys that worked with me at the Mississippi Worker's Comp. Commission got n as ALJs with this outfit, Bureau of Hearings and Appeals, SSA. Curious, I went down to the Federal Building, and picked announcement 318, the application form for ALJs put out by the Civil Service Commission. Did all it said, next thing I knew, I was scheduled for a written demonstration. Did that, then I was scheduled for an oral interview. Lived in Jackson, MS. at the time, so had to fly over to Atlanta for that. The panel consisted of a local attorney, Civil Service Commission employee, and an ALJ with no particular agency. Mine turned out to be the RCALJ of the Atlanta region for BHA. Didn't know it at the time. but found out later, if you got this far, you had it made. Got on the register, which as you said was open. Was placed on the general register, was selected by the Coast Guard, but declined, and then selected by BHA, and hired for my preferred location. It was downhill from there. Until my hiring, had no contact with SSA.
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Post by decadealj on Feb 5, 2013 16:45:25 GMT -5
The exam process I described and deltajudge referred to was the OPM ALJ exam process for at least 30 years. I think it changed in the mid 90s when OPM changed the scoring matrix especially for vets. That led to the Adzell litigation and the machinations since. I only commented on it so that folks know that for decades the exam process was totally open and every one knew where they stood. It would not surprise me a bit to see OPM revisit the old process but I wouldn't be too worried about Blue Books. Mastering the computer written demonstration is the basic qualification OPM and ODAR want and as many have posted, once on the register, ODAR will find a way to get to the folks they want. Mess up the ODAR interview and it is good-bye and don't come back.
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Post by deltajudge on Feb 5, 2013 22:28:51 GMT -5
8-)Decade, a little nostalgia for those of late on board and those that want to be. After I got through the vouchering process, I was notified as to the date, time, and location for my written demonstration. As stated earlier, I lived in Jackson, MS at the time. Well I showed up at the appointed time in a federal building, and there was this large room, and the only people there, was me and the monitor. She gave me the demonstration materials, and I had four hours to argue the facts and the issue of law presented in writing with the materials furnished, couldn't bring anything with me. Don't think I could have done any better with a computer. Pixie, that is the way it was, plodding, but who knows what is better or what is not. I had 15 good years with OHA, and 15 years of just coasting and rolling with the flow, ignoring the morons.
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zaddik
New Member
And therefore I have sailed the seas and come, To the holy city of Byzantium.
Posts: 4
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Post by zaddik on Feb 6, 2013 8:45:05 GMT -5
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Post by privateatty on Feb 6, 2013 16:50:48 GMT -5
Not much to say that Judge Frye hasn't put out there. One more small hiring and its a whole new rodeo. I wonder if these same OPM psychologists would show up to session with a patient in blue shoes and toting ray guns to dispel bad thoughts...
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