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Post by sandiferhands (old) on Jul 17, 2013 10:14:06 GMT -5
For those of us new to the process, please help us understand what typically happens:
You get on a cert. You get a call for an interview: Are you told the region? The city? The anticipated length of assignment before the interview? You decline the interview bc you don't want to go to that region/city: Are you now pariah? You accept the interview and get the job, and move to that city (w or w/o family in tow): What determines whether you get transferred, and when that occurs? Can you request a transfer? If so, what is the success rate? If you refuse an offered transfer, does it adversely affect your future as an ALJ?
Most importantly: Assuming you do a good job, can you still find yourself let go or given an ultimatum after one or two years to transfer somewhere "or else"? What is the job security of the ALJ position (assuming you perform your job well)?
Some of the snippets I read here give me the impression that maybe I'd be giving up a practice for what amounts to a temporary assignment, and forced transfers to unappealing places on the whim of a bureaucrat--scary stuff. Thanks for sharing your insights.
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Post by hopefalj on Jul 17, 2013 10:23:27 GMT -5
There aren't forced transfers, just a forced first office. If you are interviewed as part of a certificate, you won't know what office(s) you are interviewing for beyond knowing what offices on the cert list you have on your GAL. Transfers are requested, and you can currently put in a transfer request 90 days after you start. You can pick three offices to where you'd want to transfer. They are done in a first come, first serve basis. Some offices have short lists. Some are in the double digits. On occasion, judges will post the transfer list on this board if you're interested in seeing what certain offices have for their lists, and you should be able to find them with the search feature.
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Post by bartleby on Jul 17, 2013 10:42:49 GMT -5
Just because you are first on the transfer list and there is an opening in the city you want to go to doesn't mean you will get the transfer then. The Agency can weigh the needs of the office you are in versus the office you are going to and leave you where you are until such time as they can backfill the office you are trying to leave. This is usually during a new hire. Very few transfers happen other than during a new hire. As we hire more and more, there may be less transfer available as so many of the ALJ's will be early in their career and not retiring soon, ie, creating openings. I think of the 1,500 present ALJ's, 700 have been hired in the last 4-5 years?? If we don't hire until 2014, it may be a big class or even two and good locations may be few and far between for a while.
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Post by 71stretch on Jul 17, 2013 10:51:33 GMT -5
For those of us new to the process, please help us understand what typically happens: You get on a cert. You get a call for an interview: Are you told the region? The city? The anticipated length of assignment before the interview? You decline the interview bc you don't want to go to that region/city: Are you now pariah? You accept the interview and get the job, and move to that city (w or w/o family in tow): What determines whether you get transferred, and when that occurs? Can you request a transfer? If so, what is the success rate? If you refuse an offered transfer, does it adversely affect your future as an ALJ? Most importantly: Assuming you do a good job, can you still find yourself let go or given an ultimatum after one or two years to transfer somewhere "or else"? What is the job security of the ALJ position (assuming you perform your job well)? Some of the snippets I read here give me the impression that maybe I'd be giving up a practice for what amounts to a temporary assignment, and forced transfers to unappealing places on the whim of a bureaucrat--scary stuff. Thanks for sharing your insights. You are not interviewed for any particular city or region, or length of time you will be in any given city. If you get on a cert and get called for an interview, and you want to be an ALJ, you go to the interview. Period. If you later end up getting an offer off that cert to a particular city and you decline it, that doesn't end your chances forever, but ends them for that city for at least a year, etc., and could impact future potential offers, I suppose. As others have indicated, transfers are requested by the ALJ, not forced by SSA.
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Post by valkyrie on Jul 17, 2013 10:54:47 GMT -5
Transfers are a very iffy process depending on the number of overall ALJ vacancies, luck, and connections. Hopeful ALJ is correct that you will only be offered a slot in a location on your GAL, but it could be ANY of the locations on your GAL.
After 90 days you may get on the transfer list for three cities, on a first come, first serve basis. Unfortunately, the only offices that have your interest could already have an extensive transfer list, a fully stocked ALJ contingent with nobody interested in leaving for 10 years, or both. Then there are the management transfers.
You can apply for an open Hearing Office Chief Judge (HOCALJ) position in a location of interest, but so can anybody else, AND you of course have to be the winning candidate. The problem with this is, you could be first on the transfer list for your desired location and have some insider knowledge that Judge Oldguy is retiring in two months, creating an opening. Hurrah! Unfortunately, you also find out that the office HOCALJ is stepping down into a line ALJ slot, and none of the other ALJs in the office is interested in the HOCALJ job... So, after waiting two years to get to the top of the transfer list AND have an opening occur in your desired office, the transfer list is now moot, because the open slot will be filled by management selecting a new HOCALJ from outside the office. That could be you if you're interested in applying, or it could be the brand new ALJ who works in the regional office and gets lots of face-to-face with the Regional Chief Judge...
Then there is the dreaded "Hardship Transfer." This is an example of the ALJ Union at its incompentent worst. If you should have some terrible tradgedy strike you or your immediate family, (which also includes your in-laws), and you were unaware of this issue before accepting your appointment to your current location, the Union has allowed ODAR, in its infinite mercy, to show its compassionate side and, tranfer list be-damned, transfer you to the location you are needed, if an opening exists, to succor yourself or family as needed... While this has of course been done on numerous occasions, within the intent and letter of the rules, it has also been frequently abused. The problem is the contract allows Management full discretion to go around the regular transfer list for hardship transfers, without any Union input. They do not have to give you a reason or explanation for why YOUR hardship transfer request was denied, but the ALJ who requested a hardship transfer for eyebrow replacement surgery was approved.
Good luck!
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Post by bartleby on Jul 17, 2013 11:15:12 GMT -5
Val has hit on two important points that I have seen played as he describes..
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Post by JudgeRatty on Jul 17, 2013 11:39:04 GMT -5
Don't forget, the transfer is on your own dime unless you are taking a Hearing Office Chief Judge (HOCALJ) position (which would be unlikely for a brand new ALJ). Transferring is hard enough without the worry of the cost of relocation, the sale of a house, and potential double payments for housing during relocation. Many things to consider. That is why it is repeatedly stressed on this board that if you accept a city, be prepared to spend a few years in that location. Granted, some have been fortunate to transfer shortly after being put on the list, but this is no guarantee.
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Post by moopigsdad on Jul 17, 2013 11:40:49 GMT -5
Val good points to know for future reference. Thank you.
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Post by ssaer on Jul 17, 2013 13:34:31 GMT -5
Don't forget, the transfer is on your own dime unless you are taking a Hearing Office Chief Judge (HOCALJ) position (which would be unlikely for a brand new ALJ). Transferring is hard enough without the worry of the cost of relocation, the sale of a house, and potential double payments for housing during relocation. Many things to consider. That is why it is repeatedly stressed on this board that if you accept a city, be prepared to spend a few years in that location. Granted, some have been fortunate to transfer shortly after being put on the list, but this is no guarantee. There is an exception. ODAR will pay relocation expenses (and provide relocation benefits, including housing allowances, etc.) on transfers to the National Hearing Centers.
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Post by ginger on Jul 17, 2013 13:44:10 GMT -5
Forgive my ignorance, Where are the National Hearing Centers?
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Post by hopefalj on Jul 17, 2013 13:51:23 GMT -5
Forgive my ignorance, Where are the National Hearing Centers? Baltimore Falls Church, VA St. Louis Albuquerque Chicago
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Post by sandiferhands (old) on Jul 17, 2013 14:07:46 GMT -5
Thanks for the insightful information. My takeaway is:
IF you are lucky enough to get an ALJ job offer for a city in your GAL:
1)...and you take it thinking "I'll become an ALJ first, then transfer to my fav city", you face many variables that may delay or forever prevent that tranfer, OR
2)...and you take it because you're comfortable moving to the new city, and you do your job well there, you will be able to stay there for the duration of your career as an ALJ.
AMIRIGHT?
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Post by 71stretch on Jul 17, 2013 14:32:36 GMT -5
Thanks for the insightful information. My takeaway is: IF you are lucky enough to get an ALJ job offer for a city in your GAL: 1)...and you take it thinking "I'll become an ALJ first, then transfer to my fav city", you face many variables that may delay or forever prevent that tranfer, OR 2)...and you take it because you're comfortable moving to the new city, and you do your job well there, you will be able to stay there for the duration of your career as an ALJ. AMIRIGHT? Yes, you are right.
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Post by ginger on Jul 17, 2013 15:21:30 GMT -5
Thanks for the info hopefalj
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Post by JudgeRatty on Jul 17, 2013 15:36:52 GMT -5
Don't forget, the transfer is on your own dime unless you are taking a Hearing Office Chief Judge (HOCALJ) position (which would be unlikely for a brand new ALJ). Transferring is hard enough without the worry of the cost of relocation, the sale of a house, and potential double payments for housing during relocation. Many things to consider. That is why it is repeatedly stressed on this board that if you accept a city, be prepared to spend a few years in that location. Granted, some have been fortunate to transfer shortly after being put on the list, but this is no guarantee. There is an exception. ODAR will pay relocation expenses (and provide relocation benefits, including housing allowances, etc.) on transfers to the National Hearing Centers. I think I saw somewhere that this was possibly going to change? The NHC exception?
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Post by robespierre on Jul 17, 2013 16:30:46 GMT -5
Hopefalj said: "If you are interviewed as part of a certificate, you won't know what office(s) you are interviewing for beyond knowing what offices on the cert list you have on your GAL."
But will we see the cert list?
I guess I'm asking, are the details of a cert made public? If so, where do you go to see it? As I understand it, a cert is a request by an agency (SSA 99% of the time) to OPM for names of candidates for openings the agency has. Seems like that's between SSA and OPM. How would someone on the register get access to it?
Thanks guys!
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Post by 71stretch on Jul 17, 2013 16:45:16 GMT -5
Hopefalj said: "If you are interviewed as part of a certificate, you won't know what office(s) you are interviewing for beyond knowing what offices on the cert list you have on your GAL." But will we see the cert list? I guess I'm asking, are the details of a cert made public? If so, where do you go to see it? As I understand it, a cert is a request by an agency (SSA 99% of the time) to OPM for names of candidates for openings the agency has. Seems like that's between SSA and OPM. How would someone on the register get access to it? Thanks guys! You have NO access to a cert list, sorry, it is not a public record. SSA asks for X number of people off the register who have a certain list of cities on their GAL. They ask for at least 3 times the number of people that they theoretically have open slots for. Some of the cities may not actually see a new hire off the register, as some slots are filled by transfers. The people who are interviewing you don't have a particular office in mind when they do it. They just want to see if you "fit in" as an SSA ALJ generally.
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Post by privateatty on Jul 17, 2013 16:46:25 GMT -5
Thanks for the insightful information. My takeaway is: IF you are lucky enough to get an ALJ job offer for a city in your GAL: 1)...and you take it thinking "I'll become an ALJ first, then transfer to my fav city", you face many variables that may delay or forever prevent that tranfer, OR 2)...and you take it because you're comfortable moving to the new city, and you do your job well there, you will be able to stay there for the duration of your career as an ALJ. AMIRIGHT? There is one part of your question(s) that remains unanswered: being a federal ALJ is a lifetime appointment under the APA and "doing your job well" is not a consideration, per se. You may want to read the APA and the case law--there are a few new DC Cir. cases that have been reported here and are easy to find like Long and Shapiro. Just do a search using federal courts under Google Scholar. Of course you are expected to churn out 500-700 cases a year at SSA but the issue of how you do it is one that has been debated ad nauseum here. SSA is so large that you literally have ALJs of all types of behavioural persuasion--just the stories I hear from folks I know who used to be there are truly amazing.
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Post by sandiferhands (old) on Jul 17, 2013 18:17:25 GMT -5
Thanks for the insightful information. My takeaway is: IF you are lucky enough to get an ALJ job offer for a city in your GAL: 1)...and you take it thinking "I'll become an ALJ first, then transfer to my fav city", you face many variables that may delay or forever prevent that tranfer, OR 2)...and you take it because you're comfortable moving to the new city, and you do your job well there, you will be able to stay there for the duration of your career as an ALJ. AMIRIGHT? There is one part of your question(s) that remains unanswered: being a federal ALJ is a lifetime appointment under the APA and "doing your job well" is not a consideration, per se. You may want to read the APA and the case law--there are a few new DC Cir. cases that have been reported here and are easy to find like Long and Shapiro. Just do a search using federal courts under Google Scholar. Of course you are expected to churn out 500-700 cases a year at SSA but the issue of how you do it is one that has been debated ad nauseum here. SSA is so large that you literally have ALJs of all types of behavioural persuasion--just the stories I hear from folks I know who used to be there are truly amazing. Yes, I had gleaned the protected nature of the position from other posts. Golden ticket, indeed.
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Post by DreamNalj on Jul 18, 2013 7:43:26 GMT -5
No NHC on the west coast? Really?
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