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Post by 71stretch on Oct 15, 2013 16:36:19 GMT -5
View AttachmentSorry Screwed the quote all up...report is attached to post. oig.ssa.gov/sites/default/files/audit/full/pdf/A-05-12-22144.pdf SSA provides the greatest pro-rata share of costs for the ALJ program to OPM via an Inter-agency agreement (page 24 of the report at the link provided above. Yes OPM is an independent agency and yes, they conduct the testing but I believe that SSA, as a major customer, who provides the majority of the funding for the program, has a lot of say--- OPM should want to have a happy customer and be responsive to the needs of their biggest customer. Indeed, if you read the report, SSA has complained about services rendered and whether or not it was getting what they were paying for. I do not purport to have any inside knowledge or expertise in this matter. I base my position based on the report and on the unofficial timeline post on this board. ODAR has pulled a cert from the register within 30 days of the NORs being released. I do not believe that SSA can do all the data calls, planning and logistics this quickly without first coordinating with OPM on some level. Again, just my POV. My point is, past timelines DO NOT MATTER here. I don't think the prior scheduling was some plan between OPM and ODAR. There's no requirement that SSA or any other agency be ready to pull a cert from a register in a certain number of days after it was done. In the past, SSA/ODAR was ready to hire when the register was completed. But, the budget (or no budget) issues were different in past years than they are now, and not just the sequester. It's quite possible that NO agency is going to be in a position to ask for a cert in the same time frame after the register is established as was done in the past. There's no reason for SSA/ODAR to tell OPM to wait on the NORs. SSA/ODAR can do its homework getting ready to ask for a cert while the register sits there waiting. Why does OPM have to hold off on doing their job with the register until SSA/ODAR is ready to ask for a cert? As far as the "happy customer" stuff, why would SSA/ODAR be "unhappy" with OPM issuing NORs when the scoring is completed? That's not where they've been dissatisfied in the past, it's the testing they wanted changed, and they got it. It isn't like some other agency that hasn't paid its share is gong to swoop in and hire 200 people before SSA gets a cert. There's no such agency.  OPM has a job to do, (issuing the NORs) and they are going to do their job in their own time frame. The register will still be there when SSA/ODAR is ready to ask for a cert. OPM is not going to hold NORs off until spring. I'll take that to the bank. |
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Post by ssaogc on Oct 15, 2013 17:00:30 GMT -5
Sorry Screwed the quote all up...report is attached to post. oig.ssa.gov/sites/default/files/audit/full/pdf/A-05-12-22144.pdf SSA provides the greatest pro-rata share of costs for the ALJ program to OPM via an Inter-agency agreement (page 24 of the report at the link provided above. Yes OPM is an independent agency and yes, they conduct the testing but I believe that SSA, as a major customer, who provides the majority of the funding for the program, has a lot of say--- OPM should want to have a happy customer and be responsive to the needs of their biggest customer. Indeed, if you read the report, SSA has complained about services rendered and whether or not it was getting what they were paying for. I do not purport to have any inside knowledge or expertise in this matter. I base my position based on the report and on the unofficial timeline post on this board. ODAR has pulled a cert from the register within 30 days of the NORs being released. I do not believe that SSA can do all the data calls, planning and logistics this quickly without first coordinating with OPM on some level. Again, just my POV. My point is, past timelines DO NOT MATTER here. I don't think the prior scheduling was some plan between OPM and ODAR. There's no requirement that SSA or any other agency be ready to pull a cert from a register in a certain number of days after it was done. The budget (or no budget) issues were different in past years than they are now, and not just the sequester. It's quite possible that NO agency is going to be in a position to ask for a cert in the same time frame after the register is established as was done in the past. There's no reason for SSA to tell OPM to wait on the NORs. OPM has a job to do, (issuing the NORs) and they are going to do their job in their own time frame. The register will still be there when SSA/ODAR is ready to ask for a cert. They aren't going to hold NORs off until spring. I answered your question regarding SSA paying for the testing and provided my reason for believing that the NORs may not come out--I very much hope you are right in saying that past timelines do not matter SSA paid OPM to come up with a register from which they can hire. OPM designed a new test (no numerical limit) and used a new, probably legal, way to adjudicate vets preference. This there is some risk of litigation over the exam, lets face it there are lots of disappointed applicants who were disqualified for reasons that did not seem to make sense. SSA has a need for a large number of ALJs. It does SSA no good if the register is tied up and unusable due to litigation. For this reason, I do not believe that it would be unreasonable for SSA to ask OPM to hold off on releasing the register until they are ready to hire---after all they paid for the bulk of the testing and they are going to use the register the most. I do not know if the appeals are supposed to be adjudicated within a certain time frame or if disappointed applicants have to exhaust their administrative appeals before proceeding to court--if they do, then I agree that OPM could release the NORs this year and then just take their time adjudicating the appeals. Both of these positions are all speculation on my part and your part. We are, after all, surmising that the NORs will be released based on previous release dates using the last three times that the register was opened. Perhaps SSA will have more flexibility to hire ALJs using authority that may come out of any budget deal that is struck in congress in the near future--if they do then we might see hiring earlier than expected. |
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Post by 71stretch on Oct 15, 2013 17:10:59 GMT -5
My point is, past timelines DO NOT MATTER here. I don't think the prior scheduling was some plan between OPM and ODAR. There's no requirement that SSA or any other agency be ready to pull a cert from a register in a certain number of days after it was done. The budget (or no budget) issues were different in past years than they are now, and not just the sequester. It's quite possible that NO agency is going to be in a position to ask for a cert in the same time frame after the register is established as was done in the past. There's no reason for SSA to tell OPM to wait on the NORs. OPM has a job to do, (issuing the NORs) and they are going to do their job in their own time frame. The register will still be there when SSA/ODAR is ready to ask for a cert. They aren't going to hold NORs off until spring. I answered your question regarding SSA paying for the testing and provided my reason for believing that the NORs may not come out--I very much hope you are right in saying that past timelines do not matter SSA paid OPM to come up with a register from which they can hire. OPM designed a new test (no numerical limit) and used a new, probably legal, way to adjudicate vets preference. This there is some risk of litigation over the exam, lets face it there are lots of disappointed applicants who were disqualified for reasons that did not seem to make sense. SSA has a need for a large number of ALJs. It does SSA no good if the register is tied up and unusable due to litigation. For this reason, I do not believe that it would be unreasonable for SSA to ask OPM to hold off on releasing the register until they are ready to hire---after all they paid for the bulk of the testing and they are going to use the register the most. I do not know if the appeals are supposed to be adjudicated within a certain time frame or if disappointed applicants have to exhaust their administrative appeals before proceeding to court--if they do, then I agree that OPM could release the NORs this year and then just take their time adjudicating the appeals. Both of these positions are all speculation on my part and your part. We are, after all, surmising that the NORs will be released based on previous release dates using the last three times that the register was opened. Perhaps SSA will have more flexibility to hire ALJs using authority that may come out of any budget deal that is struck in congress in the near future--if they do then we might see hiring earlier than expected. I would suspect that any litigation over the process that would be asking for injunctive relief (based on the vet preference or some other overarching aspect of the testing) would not happen until the NORs ARE released. So, if SSA/ODAR makes them wait until they are ready to hire, the register comes out, and someone runs in and gets an injunction, what has SSA/ODAR gained? They are ready to hire, and they can't. (I'm not getting into exhaustion of remedies here... too exhausted. ) If the register comes out in the normal course of business, and someone goes in and tries to get an injunction, and maybe succeeds on a preliminary injunction, there's more time to sort that out (and perhaps lift it, assuming they can even get an injunction) before SSA is ready to hire. Makes more sense to me. We'll just wait to see which of us is closer to the actual course of events. |
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Post by ssaogc on Oct 15, 2013 17:25:21 GMT -5
"So, if SSA/ODAR makes them wait until they are ready to hire, the register comes out, and someone runs in and gets an injunction, what has SSA/ODAR gained?"
They can hire one or two classes before any injunctive relief is granted. Once hired, the judges stay like they did in Adzell until all litigation is settled or resolved
I hope I am wrong with my chicken little suspicions and that you are right---and that we both get hired at the same time so one of us will buy the booze after the first training day!
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Post by 71stretch on Oct 15, 2013 18:35:06 GMT -5
My experience with TROs and injunctive relief in federal court is a bit rusty, but there's way too big a time period (months) between getting a register, asking for a cert, and hiring one or two classes. Plenty of time for someone to get their injunction before that first hire ever happens.
So, we'll see.
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Post by ssaogc on Oct 15, 2013 18:45:10 GMT -5
From a highly respected member of this board: "Oddly enough, I just had that conversation with an ALJ friend and a couple friends that got cut (one at phase 1 the other at phase 2). The ALJ said he would think there would be a lawsuit filed, there almost always is. No clue on whether it would get traction, but someone will file one. In fact, the NORs and appeal info given to those cut at phase 1 seems to imply that OPM expects it too. As some have written, back in the 90s there was a lawsuit that caused the register and of course hiring from the register to be frozen during the pendency. Several years passed with those poor souls on the register in complete limbo and the agencies unable to fill vacancies (though I understand there was at least one compromise on a leave of court to make a small hire). Thus, OPM knows that a new process may arise litigious thoughts in those they cut and that it could mean their shiny new register is frozen and unuseable for a period. They also know, though, that a cut candidate's right to sue does not become ripe until all administrative remedies (ie the appeals) are finished. Taking that knowledge, it enlightens one on why OPM put in the appeal notices that no appeals would be heard until all those that got through the process are finished all phases of testing and on the register. The logical extrapolation is that they want the register set and time to make at least one big hire before anyone has a ripe cause of action that may freeze the register. How the budget and the lack of funds to make any ALJ hires until probably fiscal 2015 comes in and messes with that is anyone's guess. But, I could definitely see OPM arranging the appeals process so as to at least delay anyone from messing with their new baby for as long as possible. " I think he/she is on the money! Found at: Dear John E-mails |
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Post by lurker/dibs on Oct 15, 2013 19:36:43 GMT -5
Ssaogc, I was thinking that SS would have no say, that OPM probably won't get paid for creating a new register until one is in place so they would want to get paid as soon as possible, and a million other reasons why NORs would come out sooner than later. Then I read your post. You may be on to something...
I guess we will find out when we find out....marathon not a sprint....marathon not a sprint...
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Post by ssaogc on Oct 15, 2013 20:14:16 GMT -5
Lurker/Dibs, it is just my opinion based on what I have read. I actually starting looking at this after I read Funkyodar's post in the Dear John thread. I do believe that OPM wants to be responsive to the needs of SSA--their biggest customer and would entertain some types of reasonable requests from SSA that do not affect the ALJ testing processes or the integrity of such testing. Its a complicated set up giving all the stake holders.
I saw an old post earlier today from Pixie on GALS and Scores and I will post it if I see it again. This process is indeed a marathon with some luck mixed in to boot.
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Post by prescient on Oct 16, 2013 10:52:59 GMT -5
Vet points were used to get vets past phase two and into phase three. I am all for vet points added at the end of the competive examination but in this case there was a double benefit which if i had been eliminated at phase two i would have a problem with the scheme. Just saying there might be some folks that take exception to this and they may litigate it like they did in Adzell. I am not a Veteran, but I think Vet points should apply throughout the whole process not just at the end of the process. Part of the issue is Vets should be able to benefit and move up in the entire process due to their service. I have no problem with the issuance of Vet points at all during the whole process. Why aren't alj positions considered excepted service? If it's been determined that attorneys are excepted, I'm missing the logic gap to explain why aljs are competitive. |
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Post by ssaogc on Oct 16, 2013 11:22:41 GMT -5
I am not a Veteran, but I think Vet points should apply throughout the whole process not just at the end of the process. Part of the issue is Vets should be able to benefit and move up in the entire process due to their service. I have no problem with the issuance of Vet points at all during the whole process. Why aren't alj positions considered excepted service? If it's been determined that attorneys are excepted, I'm missing the logic gap to explain why aljs are competitive. You need to know what the definition of excepted service is as opposed to competitive service positions (not to be confused with excepted for furlough purposes--two different matters). In exempted service positions (which most attorney positions fall into) veteran's preference procedures need only be provided as "administratively possible". So there is no five points or 10 points for the most part and the hiring agency may simply consider your vet status as a "positive factor" in making its selection. A non preference eligible can be chose over a preference eligible. ALJ positions are in the competitive service and that is why there is an examination. Do a google search and you will find plenty of information on the topic. |
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Post by Ace Midnight on Oct 16, 2013 11:31:43 GMT -5
Why aren't alj positions considered excepted service? If it's been determined that attorneys are excepted, I'm missing the logic gap to explain why aljs are competitive. I have no inside knowledge, but this is my take: I think it serves 2 purposes - First, is it allows outsiders to "compete" for ALJ positions, and prevent it from becoming a completely closed, insular community. Second, is to objectively afford the Veteran's preference. These are lucrative jobs, relatively speaking, in the Federal service - near the very top of the pay scale for Federal civil servants. The political jockeying, behind the scenes, is only hinted at by this fairly Byzantine process to even be considered. And that didn't happen overnight. Although there are exceptions, few set out to create a "Byzantine" structure - it happens over the course of time, generally with changes that are made, usually, with good intentions. Every addition adds new interactions, unintended consequences, sometimes perverse incentives, etc., and after a few years and dozens of changes - Voila! A tangled mess. |
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Post by prescient on Oct 16, 2013 20:39:18 GMT -5
ALJ positions are in the competitive service and that is why there is an examination. Do a google search and you will find plenty of information on the topic. Yea. My point was, if it's been determined by every agency in the federal government that attorneys are classified as excepted service jobs; why aren't ALJs also excepted? One would think that they should be the same, either both excepted or conversely both competitive, no? I suspect the explanation goes along the lines as acemidnight speculated, but was curious if there is something more concrete. |
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Post by ssaogc on Oct 16, 2013 23:44:27 GMT -5
ALJ positions are in the competitive service and that is why there is an examination. Do a google search and you will find plenty of information on the topic. Yea. My point was, if it's been determined by every agency in the federal government that attorneys are classified as excepted service jobs; why aren't ALJs also excepted? One would think that they should be the same, either both excepted or conversely both competitive, no? I suspect the explanation goes along the lines as acemidnight speculated, but was curious if there is something more concrete. I did not get the gist of your question. ALJ positions are not 0905 attorney (excepted) series positions, they are 0935 series. OPM has the responsibility to come up with the register under the APA and as the lead agency promulgated regulations making it a competitive job with its own series. |
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Post by Ace Midnight on Oct 17, 2013 8:06:15 GMT -5
I think the question was based on logic, rather than a series designation - obviously all qualified ALJ candidates are attorneys - as attorneys are excepted (vice competitive), ergo ALJs would reasonably be expected to be excepted (sorry for the Seuss-esque internal rhyme).
But they are not. And that is an inconsistency worth exploring.
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Post by ssaogc on Oct 17, 2013 9:22:56 GMT -5
I think the question was based on logic, rather than a series designation - obviously all qualified ALJ candidates are attorneys - as attorneys are excepted (vice competitive), ergo ALJs would reasonably be expected to be excepted (sorry for the Seuss-esque internal rhyme). But they are not. And that is an inconsistency worth exploring. I do not see the logic in exploring the inconsistency, it is what it is and finding an answer whether it be series number difference or otherwise has no bearing on any of us getting the job--if you want the job, you need to compete for it via the examination process they have developed. |
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Post by Gaidin on Oct 17, 2013 9:31:47 GMT -5
Its competitive so that you can get APA protections. Otherwise you would serve at the will of the agency and that would end any pretext of ALJ independence.
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Post by Ace Midnight on Oct 17, 2013 13:41:20 GMT -5
Its competitive so that you can get APA protections. Otherwise you would serve at the will of the agency and that would end any pretext of ALJ independence. I had not considered that these things might be related. Now that you've said it, it makes more sense. |
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