ebb
New Member
Posts: 5
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Post by ebb on Mar 22, 2014 8:05:44 GMT -5
Someone made a reference in another thread to popular cities - NYC, SF, etc. - never hiring ALJs off the register. Is that right? If someone has a GAL limited solely to, say, a couple of popular cities, are they likely out of luck, even with a high score?
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Post by Highlander on Mar 22, 2014 8:13:42 GMT -5
A lot of people talk about a place called Crapland...
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Post by futuressaalj on Mar 22, 2014 8:38:49 GMT -5
Someone made a reference in another thread to popular cities - NYC, SF, etc. - never hiring ALJs off the register. Is that right? If someone has a GAL limited solely to, say, a couple of popular cities, are they likely out of luck, even with a high score? That seems to be the general rule. Use the search button on this board and search prior postings on where new hires were placed. Also go to the Association of ALJ website--sometimes they list the new hires and where they are placed. I spent a considerable amount of time and I did not see any new hires in these locations--there is a large concentration of attorneys at these locations--I surmise they take jobs at less desireable locations (Crapland) and then work their way back via transfer--this is why they never fill a location with a new hire. On one rare occassion I saw someone get put at the Orlando office as a new hire--I suspect this individual might have had a prior affiliation with the office so it was a pre-arranged hire. So even if you have a high score you may not have very good chances if your GAL is limited to places where they do not hire folks--you stay on the register but do not move.
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Post by moopigsdad on Mar 22, 2014 8:39:26 GMT -5
Someone made a reference in another thread to popular cities - NYC, SF, etc. - never hiring ALJs off the register. Is that right? If someone has a GAL limited solely to, say, a couple of popular cities, are they likely out of luck, even with a high score? Although, this has been discussed in the past on previous posts to the Board, I will attempt to give you an answer again. If there is an opening and you are a high scorer, you have a chance. However, 99% of the time the premium spots are taken by present ALJs transferring to those premium spots prior to a new cert being offered. Hence, no cert is created for the premium spots since no openings exist. This is the reason why a wider open GAL is usually discussed on this Board as being much better for an applicant.
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Post by funkyodar on Mar 22, 2014 8:49:00 GMT -5
Essentially yes ebb. When ssa gets ready to hire judges, it is mandated that they first work the transfer list of current aljs that want to move to other offices.
This usually results in an exodus from so called "crapland" offices to the popular cities and the few open slots in those popular cities are filled and new openings are created in the crapland places.
As a result, ssa having an opening in one of the popular cities (like SF, DC) that is on a cert and filled by a new hire from the register is rare. If one has a high score but only one or a handful of popular cities on their gal, irregardless of their score they will most likely never reach a cert as their will most likely never be an opening for a new hire in those cities.
And the worse news is, for those that didn't realize the huge impact of gal selection and the reality of ssa hiring, you won't get to expand your gal to have a real shot with ssa until the register is refreshed. That will likely not be for at least a couple years.
You may have a shot with some other agency that has offices in the popular cities on your gal. But those agencies rarely hire from the register, choosing instead to take experienced aljs from ssa. Also, they hire very few, think single digits, or none every year. So, one would need to be at the very top of the register. Also, those agenciesare predominately based in DC, so having a gal limited to SF or somewhere else also limits you out of many of those agencies if they do make a hire.
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Post by hamster on Mar 22, 2014 8:53:53 GMT -5
Well, if you are an incumbent ALJ and you're working somewhere you don't want to be, because it has an insalubrious climate or is far from your family, you are probably already on the transfer list for someplace else. Prior to filling a vacancy with a brand-new ALJ, the Agency will first check the transfer list to see if an incumbent wants to go there. If the incumbent still does and is able to move within 45 days or so, then the Agency will fill the vacancy with the incumbent.
In my opinion, if an ALJ candidate has a GAL that's limited to the most popular cities--e.g., Honolulu, then that ALJ candidate has a much poorer chance of being hired than would a candidate with a wide-open GAL. They don't call them the most popular cities for nuthin'. Incumbents enjoy taking in the tropical breeze and sipping a Mai Tai as much as anybody.
Of course, weird things can happen. I am transferring in a week to a new office, but I was #4 on the transfer list. For some reason, the three incumbent ALJs in front of me told the Agency they didn't want to move right now. So I landed the transfer. Similarly, if there are incumbents on the transfer list for a particular office but nobody wants to move when they get the call (maybe they don't want to have to sell their house or put the kids in a new school), then the ALJ candidate could fill that vacancy.
Good luck, Hamster
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Post by anotherfed on Mar 22, 2014 10:15:14 GMT -5
;)I'm starting to think that the most popular city is Crapland, followed closely by its sister city, East Crapland.
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Post by maquereau on Mar 22, 2014 10:15:29 GMT -5
Hamster is exactly right. My understanding is that the transfer list to a particular city must be fully worked for incumbents before opening to new hires. Now I suppose that the agency could work the whole transfer list and get down to the last person and then take that person for the desired city - and THEN decide that they need, due to increased business there let's say, another ALJ slot there. I think in that case a newbie could get to a city ahead of others. However, in the very most desirable locations that would be unlikely to happen because there would likely be several people on the list who are ready to move right now. The other thing is that if you are on a transfer list, offered a transfer to desired city, and then turn down the offer for an immediate move, then you suffer a penalty and are not eligible for transfer to that city again - for like 2 years (I think - maybe need to look this up again). So that would be another chance for a newbie to get in ahead of the experienced ALJ.
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Post by sealaw90 on Mar 22, 2014 12:00:12 GMT -5
Not sure if Seattle is considered a popular city, but I know of a 5 point vet with a very limited GAL get hired into that ODAR, so a limited GAL is not the end of the world, just makes your chances that much more unlikely, but not impossible.
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Post by philliesfan on Mar 22, 2014 12:06:41 GMT -5
I went to training in August 2011. As best as I can remember, the locations where my classmates went were Lawrence, New Haven, Johnstown, Huntington, Charleston, WV, Morgantown, Columbia, SC, Akron, Dayton, Toledo, Cincinnati, Newark, Jersey City (which had not opened yet), Valparaiso, Mt. Pleasant, Madison, West Des Moines, St. Louis, Springfield, MO, Tupelo, Hattiesburg, Little Rock, Fargo, and San Bernardino. Some places had more than one person in the class. This may give you some idea as to in what places vacancies usually occur.
One of the considerations that ODAR makes in assigning new ALJs, beside workload, is office space. Is there an ALJ's office for a new hire at a particular location?
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Post by minny on Mar 22, 2014 12:08:25 GMT -5
Are any cities in Texas or Oklahoma considered "popular" by forum readers? Just curious.
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Post by futuressaalj on Mar 22, 2014 14:04:51 GMT -5
Are any cities in Texas or Oklahoma considered "popular" by forum readers? Just curious. San Antonio, Dallas and Houston are popular, all on my GAL hoping to get lucky but not counting on it. OKC is on my GAL too.
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Post by mcb on Mar 22, 2014 15:29:26 GMT -5
Not sure if Seattle is considered a popular city, but I know of a 5 point vet with a very limited GAL get hired into that ODAR, so a limited GAL is not the end of the world, just makes your chances that much more unlikely, but not impossible. Since there are only 6 ODARs in Region X, and only two in the Sea/Tac metro, Seattle and Tacoma are both very popular for folks hoping to stay in, return or relocate to the NW. Portland, OR, has one ODAR. 4 locals, that I know, have been hired directly into the Seattle or Tacoma ODARs. 3 of the 4 had OGC experience and at least 2 of the 4 were vets. My understanding is that the two Seattle hires were hired with - at the time - some of the current ALJs on the Seattle transfer list not being asked. For awhile there was a difference of opinion between the Agency and the union about transfer lists (the Union's position was that every ALJ had to be offered a transfer before a new hire was offered the position and the Agency argued that it had fulfilled its obligation after the first ALJ had been offered the position, but it now appears that the union position - the list must be worked before a new ALJ is offered an opening, prevails. The reason two new hires were offered positions in Tacoma was that it was a new ODAR that opened in August 2011, and after all the ALJs on the Tacoma transfer list had been offered a position (there were 10 openings, 9 if you include the HOCALJ) there were still two openings and a local vet from a different federal agency accepted one of the positions, and a local OGC attorney accepted the other opening (after it was turned down twice, I've heard, by two other new hires, not sure they were local or not).
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Post by hopefalj on Mar 22, 2014 15:40:27 GMT -5
Are any cities in Texas or Oklahoma considered "popular" by forum readers? Just curious. San Antonio, Dallas and Houston are popular, all on my GAL hoping to get lucky but not counting on it. OKC is on my GAL too. Dallas North just had two new hires based on the old posts from August 2013, but I think that was an anomaly.
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Post by grassgreener on Mar 22, 2014 20:40:48 GMT -5
The last I checked, there is a wait list for the cities in OK>
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Post by litig8tor on Mar 23, 2014 22:54:01 GMT -5
ebb: If the example in your question is your own situaion, then at least you should know that you are far from alone. I am also that person, having listed only the 5 SF Bay Area counties in the GAL. From the polls, it seems that there are many more like us, people with higher scores and very few cities on their GAL. Given what I now know (from this site, unfortunately discovered after my initial application), I know that I will never get even a shot at the Bay Area directly from the register: SSA fills all openings here from transfers and there are only a couple of non-SSA agencies with any judges here at all. I know I will sit on the register un-certed for at least a couple of years. My only hope is that when SSA sees how many high scorers are never making its certs they might do a refresh of the register, which will allow me to broaden my GAL.
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Post by pubdef on Mar 24, 2014 4:46:02 GMT -5
ebb: If the example in your question is your own situaion, then at least you should know that you are far from alone. I am also that person, having listed only the 5 SF Bay Area counties in the GAL. From the polls, it seems that there are many more like us, people with higher scores and very few cities on their GAL. Given what I now know (from this site, unfortunately discovered after my initial application), I know that I will never get even a shot at the Bay Area directly from the register: SSA fills all openings here from transfers and there are only a couple of non-SSA agencies with any judges here at all. I know I will sit on the register un-certed for at least a couple of years. My only hope is that when SSA sees how many high scorers are never making its certs they might do a refresh of the register, which will allow me to broaden my GAL. I have observed, and others indicate the same thing from their testing, that at least 1/3 of the people testing my day in DC had only a small geographic area. One person had selected only one office and it was in a popular city. A few people didn't know that the ALJ register would likely result in working for SSA, and they seemed upset to learn it. I would guess that a lot of the register has people who might not make a cert based on GAL alone. That's why I would have been happy with even a low score on the register. Good luck with any option you might have in the future.
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Post by moopigsdad on Mar 24, 2014 7:43:28 GMT -5
ebb: If the example in your question is your own situaion, then at least you should know that you are far from alone. I am also that person, having listed only the 5 SF Bay Area counties in the GAL. From the polls, it seems that there are many more like us, people with higher scores and very few cities on their GAL. Given what I now know (from this site, unfortunately discovered after my initial application), I know that I will never get even a shot at the Bay Area directly from the register: SSA fills all openings here from transfers and there are only a couple of non-SSA agencies with any judges here at all. I know I will sit on the register un-certed for at least a couple of years. My only hope is that when SSA sees how many high scorers are never making its certs they might do a refresh of the register, which will allow me to broaden my GAL. I have observed, and others indicate the same thing from their testing, that at least 1/3 of the people testing my day in DC had only a small geographic area. One person had selected only one office and it was in a popular city. A few people didn't know that the ALJ register would likely result in working for SSA, and they seemed upset to learn it. I would guess that a lot of the register has people who might not make a cert based on GAL alone. That's why I would have been happy with even a low score on the register. Good luck with any option you might have in the future. Pubdef, I agree with you one-hundred percent. During my DC testing, most people never heard of this Board nor did they have more than a few popular cities on their GALs. So, unless there are tons of openings in popular cities wanted by SSA, those with wider GALs and lower scores will likely get on a cert and have a chance to be hired.
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Post by ok1956 on Mar 24, 2014 8:50:58 GMT -5
I have read the various posts in various threads with interest. I didn't discover this board until at or near the time I went to DC and I have a relatively small GAL (I'm in the 4 to 20 group in the poll). For personal reasons I didn't want to be far from home with no idea whether a transfer might be available at some time in the future (while I've seen some older posts talking about transferring within less than a year, I've also heard of situations where transfers could take years or not be available at all). The good news is I have a pretty decent score and I'm guessing that most of the cities on my GAL are considered crapland by the majority on this board. However, with this entire process I've tried to maintain the attitude that "what will be will be."
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Post by funkyodar on Mar 24, 2014 9:52:05 GMT -5
There is no doubt that, in this game, gal is the single biggest factor one can completely control. Maybe the only factor one can "completely" control. Yet, if one saw the posting on usajobs and wasn't an insider with odar, or another agency that uses aljs and didn't follow this board, it is extremely easy to miss out on the importance of gal selection.
The job posting gives the impression that multiple agencies will be hiring. No mention is made that ssa has over 90% of all aljs, or that the vast majority of alj using agencies don't hire from the register or that those agencies don't have many offices outside DC and a couple other cities. The stark truth that most folks will end up at odar is easily missed.
Further, saying there are "one or more openings in" and giving a list of 180 cities is misleading. It lulls one into believing they can be considered for at least one position in SF, Miami, DC etc, when its highly unlikely there would ever be an opening in those popular places that is filled by a new hire.
Add to that the fact that those with no insider knowledge and who had never seen the board probably didn't understand the gal they selected could not be expanded and its definitely recipe for confusion and bad choices.
The simple truth is, the wider the gal the more chances you have of making the cert and getting a job. Remember, when you applied you weren't applying for "an" alj job. You were applying for several, at least one in every city on your gal that has an opening. The more cities, the more chances.
But, those that gave narrow gals, places they knew would make them and their family happy, may well have played the game the right way.
A wide open gal means you would take the job anywhere. Really? Would you really pack up your family, sell your home and move across the country to some small town you never heard of for a job? A job you may hate? That's a personal decision. In my situation, as an insider, I pretty much know what the job entails. My family situation and spouse's career allow for the move and we are somewhat accustomed to such. But my situation is probably rare.
Once, many, especially insiders that knew the system, gamed the gal by picking everywhere to increase their chances. They would then strike undesirable cities once they made a cert. I'm not sure the impact of the new opm cert procedure, but individual city certs would seem to make that more difficult.
Often, those with wide gals have a plan to take whatever city they are lucky enough to get offered then plan on being able to transfer to some more desirable place. Many playing that strategy my be disappointed. All indications are transfers will be much less frequent and guaranteed in the future. They only work the transfer list when they do a hire and hiring is nowhere near as frequent or in the quatities it once was.
So those that chose narrow gals may be down about it now, feeling suckered and as if they don't have a real shot even after doing great on the testing. But, if you knew when you chose your gal you wouldn't want to move to Valparaiso for the job, what's changed now? Is it just being caught up in the game and not wanting to "lose"? Perhaps its better to change perspective and ask yourself if "winning" a job somewhere you wouldn't want to reside is "winning" at all.
Just my opinion
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