wayne
Full Member
Posts: 55
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Post by wayne on May 7, 2014 12:42:33 GMT -5
I've seen several remarks on this board on the importance of getting references prepared and/or up to speed. Can anyone explain how to properly prepare your references? All I've done is tell him/her that I was applying for a Federal ALJ position, and ask their permission to use him/her as a reference, and please say nice things about me. What else do we need to tell our references?
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Post by 71stretch on May 7, 2014 13:09:08 GMT -5
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Post by bartleby on May 7, 2014 14:01:33 GMT -5
As I have said before, use someone that knows and likes you. The credentials of the person giving your recommendations are not as critcal as what they say. Nothing worse than using the ROCALJ that you met one time and when they call, he says, "Huh, Funky who??" You get the drift.
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Post by cubbietax on May 7, 2014 14:06:26 GMT -5
As I have said before, use someone that knows and likes you. The credentials of the person giving your recommendations are not as critcal as what they say. Nothing worse than using the ROCALJ that you met one time and when they call, he says, "Huh, Funky who??" You get the drift. I would be interested in your thoughts with the credentials vs. what they say. In the Judge category I have one Judge who I have appeared before twice. In my practice you rarely appear before the same judge. He remembers one of the cases and will say positive things. However, he really does not know me. As he fits the judicial category, I figured it is better to use him than come up short on Judicial references. What do you all think? This problem all stems from the one judge I appeared before the most in the Navy has fallen off the face of the earth. Ugh!!!
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Post by moopigsdad on May 7, 2014 14:07:50 GMT -5
As I have said before, use someone that knows and likes you. The credentials of the person giving your recommendations are not as critcal as what they say. Nothing worse than using the ROCALJ that you met one time and when they call, he says, "Huh, Funky who??" You get the drift. Heck, bartleby, I know funky and when he calls and my wife answers, she says "it's funky for you". My first response is what is funky for me? Then, when she says, you know funky wants to talk to you. My next response is funky who?
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Post by mch135 on May 7, 2014 14:29:22 GMT -5
As I have said before, use someone that knows and likes you. The credentials of the person giving your recommendations are not as critcal as what they say. Nothing worse than using the ROCALJ that you met one time and when they call, he says, "Huh, Funky who??" You get the drift. I would be interested in your thoughts with the credentials vs. what they say. In the Judge category I have one Judge who I have appeared before twice. In my practice you rarely appear before the same judge. He remembers one of the cases and will say positive things. However, he really does not know me. As he fits the judicial category, I figured it is better to use him than come up short on Judicial references. What do you all think? This problem all stems from the one judge I appeared before the most in the Navy has fallen off the face of the earth. Ugh!!! I have the same problem in that I rarely appear before the same judge twice and I'm really having to stretch to get to 3. I don't think you can get away with not having 3, though, because the way I understand it is we must give 3.
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Post by bartleby on May 7, 2014 14:42:31 GMT -5
I think that is where the insiders have the advantage. They work with the same batch of Judges for a long time. I don't know what to say other than if you have to use one that you don't know well, I would at least call them and ask to talk to them personally and go and tell them what you are trying to do. They may tell the interveiwer that they hardly know you, but i don't have any good answers. If you are a long time litigator, you know Judges. If you represent claimant's you know Judges, if you ar ean insider you know Judges. I would advise the rest to be careful how you handle it and at least try to find a nice person Judge that may try to help you out???
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Post by mch135 on May 7, 2014 14:47:00 GMT -5
It is tough too b/c we can't duplicate references. Because of that, I can't use the judge I clerked for as one of the 3 judicial references.
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Post by funkyodar on May 7, 2014 15:10:16 GMT -5
What if they just are never able to reach one? I'm not worried about one of my selected 9. But the senior partner I worked under in my past big firm job is retired to costa rica or some place. So far I have been unable to reach him. And no one seems to know how to contact him. I have an old cell number and email but no response. The firm dissolved years ago.
Do I risk them getting no response from him or should I list another lawyer I worked with there? The other partners were in name only or not in our office and wouldn't know me. So the other lawyers I could list wouldn't have been a supervisor for me. There was an office manager non attorney but I can't even remember her name.
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Post by 71stretch on May 7, 2014 15:23:29 GMT -5
What if they just are never able to reach one? I'm not worried about one of my selected 9. But the senior partner I worked under in my past big firm job is retired to costa rica or some place. So far I have been unable to reach him. And no one seems to know how to contact him. I have an old cell number and email but no response. The firm dissolved years ago. Do I risk them getting no response from him or should I list another lawyer I worked with there? The other partners were in name only or not in our office and wouldn't know me. So the other lawyers I could list wouldn't have been a supervisor for me. There was an office manager non attorney but I can't even remember her name. The first time I did one of these, when we had to list every job since passing the bar, a few of my supervisors were long retired and cruising the Caribbean or doing whatever somewhere else by then. In those cases, I listed someone else who was familiar with me and with the work I had done, and could answer the questions I provided.
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NP
Full Member
Posts: 82
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Post by NP on May 7, 2014 15:26:05 GMT -5
mch135, I agree the rule against duplicating makes it difficult. I clerked for two judges but they are both in the employer category, so I can't use them for judicial references. When I was in private practice, I mostly appeared before arbitrators because I did labor work. The instructions specifically say federal, state, or municipal judges, so I've had to stretch quite a bit to get my three.
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Post by funkyodar on May 7, 2014 15:26:51 GMT -5
Thats the advice I was looking for. Thanks observer.
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Post by privateatty on May 7, 2014 15:33:44 GMT -5
What if they just are never able to reach one? I'm not worried about one of my selected 9. But the senior partner I worked under in my past big firm job is retired to costa rica or some place. So far I have been unable to reach him. And no one seems to know how to contact him. I have an old cell number and email but no response. The firm dissolved years ago. Do I risk them getting no response from him or should I list another lawyer I worked with there? The other partners were in name only or not in our office and wouldn't know me. So the other lawyers I could list wouldn't have been a supervisor for me. There was an office manager non attorney but I can't even remember her name. The first time I did one of these, when we had to list every job since passing the bar, a few of my supervisors were long retired and cruising the Caribbean or doing whatever somewhere else by then. In those cases, I listed someone else who was familiar with me and with the work I had done, and could answer the questions I provided. I would echo o53 on this one. While I never ran into this problem I can relate to you that this is an issue this Board has discussed with a lot of CW and o53 has caught most of it. If you cannot comply with the strict requirements of the reference request then obviously you do what lawyers always do--you wing it with an explanation. I would keep the explanation as short as possible. I might use a footnote but that is a stylistic call.
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Post by dpageks on May 7, 2014 15:38:00 GMT -5
I was a reference for a friend who was an ALJ candidate in 2009. I received an email from a private contractor which linked me to a form to fill out regarding my knowledge of my friend. Later, a person called me at my office and we spoke on the phone for about 30 minutes. The telephone conversation was very relaxed and I only had good things to say about my friend--I recall laughing a lot during the call. In any case, he was offered a job and has been an ALJ since 2009.
On another note, the email I received for the OMHA cert for Denver only requested the names and phone numbers (not email addresses or mailing addresses) for five references. It did not specify what type of references. I listed three judges and two attorneys not within the judiciary.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2014 15:39:06 GMT -5
What if they just are never able to reach one? I'm not worried about one of my selected 9. But the senior partner I worked under in my past big firm job is retired to costa rica or some place. So far I have been unable to reach him. And no one seems to know how to contact him. I have an old cell number and email but no response. The firm dissolved years ago. Do I risk them getting no response from him or should I list another lawyer I worked with there? The other partners were in name only or not in our office and wouldn't know me. So the other lawyers I could list wouldn't have been a supervisor for me. There was an office manager non attorney but I can't even remember her name. Seems akin to a former super who's now deceased. What's one to do in that particular situation? Here's a proposed answer to ODAR: "My former supervisor Hiram Pettifogger is now deceased, and I have as yet been unsuccessful in acquiring his current address (two options?), telephone number, or email address. BTW, I'd be ever so interested if ODAR is able to find that information." ;-) EDIT: P.S. On a serious note, good luck, funky!!
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Post by ok1956 on May 7, 2014 15:44:03 GMT -5
I must say dpageks you are looking very dapper these days. Is that what you will be wearing to your interview?
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Post by sealaw90 on May 7, 2014 15:44:34 GMT -5
As I have said before, use someone that knows and likes you. The credentials of the person giving your recommendations are not as critcal as what they say. Nothing worse than using the ROCALJ that you met one time and when they call, he says, "Huh, Funky who??" You get the drift. I would be interested in your thoughts with the credentials vs. what they say. In the Judge category I have one Judge who I have appeared before twice. In my practice you rarely appear before the same judge. He remembers one of the cases and will say positive things. However, he really does not know me. As he fits the judicial category, I figured it is better to use him than come up short on Judicial references. What do you all think? This problem all stems from the one judge I appeared before the most in the Navy has fallen off the face of the earth. Ugh!!! Or in my case, the one Navy judge I appeared before quite frequently in the last 5 years was sitting in the WD/LBMT testing room on the same day -YIKES!!. And you just know they would tank me in the reference phone call, just so they could get the ALJ gig (I believe this person would do this, quite frankly, and I kinda hope he doesn't make it because of this). I had to reach back about 12 years, but the judges do remember you, and are happy to provide references. Don't forget, you could use an arbitrator/administrative judge/hearing officer type. How about an article 32 officer? Or a fellow JAG who is/was recently on the bench? You need not have practiced before them - if they can speak about your temperament, workload, etc., their opinion is good too!
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Post by cubbietax on May 7, 2014 15:49:23 GMT -5
I would be interested in your thoughts with the credentials vs. what they say. In the Judge category I have one Judge who I have appeared before twice. In my practice you rarely appear before the same judge. He remembers one of the cases and will say positive things. However, he really does not know me. As he fits the judicial category, I figured it is better to use him than come up short on Judicial references. What do you all think? This problem all stems from the one judge I appeared before the most in the Navy has fallen off the face of the earth. Ugh!!! Or in my case, the one Navy judge I appeared before quite frequently in the last 5 years was sitting in the WD/LBMT testing room on the same day -YIKES!!. And you just know they would tank me in the reference phone call, just so they could get the ALJ gig (I believe this person would do this, quite frankly, and I kinda hope he doesn't make it because of this). I had to reach back about 12 years, but the judges do remember you, and are happy to provide references. Don't forget, you could use an arbitrator/administrative judge/hearing officer type. How about an article 32 officer? Or a fellow JAG who is/was recently on the bench? You need not have practiced before them - if they can speak about your temperament, workload, etc., their opinion is good too! Already using one Navy Trial Judge and a Navy friend who is now a reserve judge. When I was in private practice I was not a litigator.
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Post by sealaw90 on May 7, 2014 15:59:06 GMT -5
Cubbie, I should've clarified my response in that it appears the judicial references MUST be a sitting fed, state or municipal judge. I thought I saw in another thread that didn't necessarily mean you had to practice before them. So if your former co-worker is now on the bench, they can be a judicial reference, especially if they know your quality of work, etc. and would agree that you would make a fine addition to the ALJ bench.
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Post by 71stretch on May 7, 2014 16:11:58 GMT -5
mch135, I agree the rule against duplicating makes it difficult. I clerked for two judges but they are both in the employer category, so I can't use them for judicial references. When I was in private practice, I mostly appeared before arbitrators because I did labor work. The instructions specifically say federal, state, or municipal judges, so I've had to stretch quite a bit to get my three. Hmmm. ALJs used to be fair game for references.. there was a sentence that said, You may include administrative law judges". Is that gone now? Back to the funkster's question, the form of mine that I still have on file on my computer says, "If former Supervisor is not with this employer, or you were self-employed, please provide current contact information or provide another name of an individual who would be able to speak to your past performance history." And that's basically what I did.
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