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Post by sandiferhands (old) on Jun 16, 2014 11:14:33 GMT -5
I've been thinking seriously about this also for the last year. There are many things not just to "think" about but actual hard research to be done. State income tax? Cost of living comparisons? School districts? Safe neighborhoods? Quality of life in the new location? ALJ pay rate at the duty station? When you start doing the hard research, the not-feasible locations quickly become apparent. You're right--there will be little to no time to give these factors the proper research and consideration they need once the call comes.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2014 12:00:42 GMT -5
We have small children but do not live near family. We do live in a great place for raising kids with a reasonable cost of living. It is also very popular with a very long transfer list. We know if we move we will not be able to get back for several years. I am a second Certer with extra time to research locations. I started out with an open GAL but a year later am more selective. If given the opportunity to interview I will narrow my GAL to only those cities I can see being for a few years. Also our family all live In popular areas so I know that if I take the job, a transfer to somewhere we want to be will take time. Fortunately my spouse and kids are very supportive of whatever decision is made. Good luck on making the best decision for your entire family.
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Post by futuressaalj on Jun 16, 2014 12:27:19 GMT -5
A well informed candidate makes for a very happy ALJ. I surmise this one of the benefits of hiring insiders--they know exactly what the job entails and if they are motivated enough to make it through the selection process they will, with few exceptions, make happy judges.
It's important that you know the job is repetitive in nature and that you are going to see and hear the same things over and over again. What will change are the names of the claimants and their faces but for the most part you will get to know the treating doctors, the notes and the same ailments that people will claim disable them. The earning history might be a little different but for the most part you will be doing very similiar type of work. If you are the type that loves to get into some heavy research, that loves the adrenaline of the courtroom, interviewing folks, chatting folks up on the phone, writing lengthy legal memos or briefs or traveling, you might find the job to be unsatisfying.
Its really best that you know exactly what you are getting into before uprooting the family and moving to a location away from extended family that you and the family might not be happy in.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2014 12:38:06 GMT -5
I agree wholeheartedly with FutureSSAALJ's comments. Just because you can take a job does not mean you should. I am very thankful that I declined or was not selected for some legal jobs over the years. Best of luck with whatever happens and whatever fork in the road you take.
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Post by dudeabides on Jun 16, 2014 12:44:51 GMT -5
Another factor is the "Mgmt Competence/ALJ Collegiality" in any given location.
Other members of this Board (insiders) have commented that there is a wide disparity in "competence/collegiality" between the various ODAR offices. Some are great. Some are terrible.
Maybe someone could create a poll listing the 47 locations and rating them as to whether they have a strong/positive Mgmt Team and general collegiality. Obviously, this would have some subjectivity, but it might be better than nothing.
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Post by moopigsdad on Jun 16, 2014 12:46:55 GMT -5
A well informed candidate makes for a very happy ALJ. I surmise this one of the benefits of hiring insiders--they know exactly what the job entails and if they are motivated enough to make it through the selection process they will, with few exceptions, make happy judges. It's important that you know the job is repetitive in nature and that you are going to see and hear the same things over and over again. What will change are the names of the claimants and their faces but for the most part you will get to know the treating doctors, the notes and the same ailments that people will claim disable them. The earning history might be a little different but for the most part you will be doing very similar type of work. If you are the type that loves to get into some heavy research, that loves the adrenaline of the courtroom, interviewing folks, chatting folks up on the phone, writing lengthy legal memos or briefs or traveling, you might find the job to be unsatisfying. Its really best that you know exactly what you are getting into before uprooting the family and moving to a location away from extended family that you and the family might not be happy in. Future, I would say a lot of people are in jobs of a repetitive nature unless they are doing different types of legal cases all the time. Most attorneys specialize in a particular area of the law and while the names and some nuances of facts change most attorneys are dealing with the same courtrooms, judges and similar clients all the time. So, while I understand your point, I think it more relevant to state it isn't the most exciting types of cases, like criminal law, personal injury, etc. However, everyone has to make that decision for themselves. A person shouldn't go in expecting to make legal rulings like an Article 3 judge, but know you are making basic administrative decisions based upon the SSA Rules and Regulations.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2014 12:55:25 GMT -5
The mgt collegiality changes. The local ODAR where I live is great but mgt members and ALJs transfer in and out, and retirements are up. The new NTEU contract also created a transfer list for other positions such as AAs and SAAs so it may make a difference there as well. I have some knowledge of 4 different ODAR offices and can say they are not the same as they were 10 years ago. Some better and some worse.
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Post by futuressaalj on Jun 16, 2014 13:06:39 GMT -5
A well informed candidate makes for a very happy ALJ. I surmise this one of the benefits of hiring insiders--they know exactly what the job entails and if they are motivated enough to make it through the selection process they will, with few exceptions, make happy judges. It's important that you know the job is repetitive in nature and that you are going to see and hear the same things over and over again. What will change are the names of the claimants and their faces but for the most part you will get to know the treating doctors, the notes and the same ailments that people will claim disable them. The earning history might be a little different but for the most part you will be doing very similar type of work. If you are the type that loves to get into some heavy research, that loves the adrenaline of the courtroom, interviewing folks, chatting folks up on the phone, writing lengthy legal memos or briefs or traveling, you might find the job to be unsatisfying. Its really best that you know exactly what you are getting into before uprooting the family and moving to a location away from extended family that you and the family might not be happy in. Future, I would say a lot of people are in jobs of a repetitive nature unless they are doing different types of legal cases all the time. Most attorneys specialize in a particular area of the law and while the names and some nuances of facts change most attorneys are dealing with the same courtrooms, judges and similar clients all the time. So, while I understand your point, I think it more relevant to state it isn't the most exciting types of cases, like criminal law, personal injury, etc. However, everyone has to make that decision for themselves. A person shouldn't go in expecting to make legal rulings like an Article 3 judge, but know you are making basic administrative decisions based upon the SSA Rules and Regulations. Point taken MPD. I have specialized in two to three areas of the law but have never had to review and dispose of 40 cases a month every month. My comments that the job is repetitive comes from my experience as a writer at SSA-I had never had a job that was so repetitive before or since and I believe that it is the similiar to the SSA ALJ. You do not really talk to anyone much, you read, make notes, hold the hearing and make a decision. Not knocking the job, it is what it is and many people like it, want it and do well at it. I think Bartbleby has indicated that you are allowed 3-4 hours per case if you are going to keep pace with the expected production numbers. I agree everyone makes their decision. The point of my post was to let those on the fence know that they should know exactly what the job entails if they do not already know what it entails. If the job does not live to expectation it is because you did not inform yourself on exactly what the job entails. When I did criminal law the crimes were usually always the same but the facts were always different, the offenders all witnesses had different stories and I got to know them, the witnesses and the evidence--but I had time to do research for motions, talk to investigators, talk to witnesses and lots of preparation to go into the courtroom. I certaintly was not expected to dispose of 40 cases a month unless I was plea barganing and even then, I had a lot more interaction with the defense counsel before coming to an agreement that was acceptable to both sides.
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Post by futuressaalj on Jun 16, 2014 13:13:56 GMT -5
The mgt collegiality changes. The local ODAR where I live is great but mgt members and ALJs transfer in and out, and retirements are up. The new NTEU contract also created a transfer list for other positions such as AAs and SAAs so it may make a difference there as well. I have some knowledge of 4 different ODAR offices and can say they are not the same as they were 10 years ago. Some better and some worse. On Target hound. Its incredible to see the differences between offices. I believe it is like sports and coaching. If the leadership can coach the ODAR team properly the office will run like a well oiled machine but if they leadership is dysfunctional or if it cannot counter the members who undermine their stated goals you wind up with an office where people are not happy and thier performance shows it. Many of us have been part of different firms, organizations, military units and it is really amazing what the right person in charge can do to turn around a place that is dysfunctional. Sometimes they get rid of the bad apples and everyone gets the message, other times they introduce new processes and procedures and other times they are just people who everyone wants to follow because they are charismatic.
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Post by bartleby on Jun 16, 2014 13:28:17 GMT -5
From what I have seen lately, upper level management is micromanaging the game at this point. Any question for the HOCALJ will take time to answer as it will be run up management before the answer is given. This is not good. There are good HOCALJ's in the Agency, but their hands are tied by management. The contract gives the HOCALJ the authority to allow Judges to shift the days they are working at home, but management will not allow them to do it. This is only one of many areas that the local HOCALJ can evaluate and handle better than Region or Chief office. This is certainly leading to decreased morale in the office. If you are happy where you are I would ask you to give real consideration as to why you would change jobs. Trust me, the Judge/Robe thing is really no big thing as you will be reminded that you are not a real judge by support staff and the Agency frequently.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2014 15:08:50 GMT -5
Hey Bulldog. My advice would be, if you get an offer, take it. It is not a perfect job, and has headaches like any other, but all in all it is a very very good place for a lawyer to land.
Second, don't uproot your family right away. Resist the urge to pick up everything at once. Let them stay where they are for now, with grandparents and grad school. Rent a small place in your new work location and settle in. If you like it, re-locate the family at a more lesiurely pace six months or a year from now. If not, ride out the transfer list. You can do anything for a year.
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Post by eyre44 on Jun 16, 2014 15:30:52 GMT -5
If you like it, re-locate the family at a more lesiurely pace six months or a year from now. If not, ride out the transfer list. You can do anything for a year. While I agree with the first part of this, make sure you know the transfer list situation before you rely on it. You may luck out and be in a place where you can transfer in a year or less. Or you could, like me, be waiting to transfer for a MUCH longer time (I am well over 2 years).
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Post by moopigsdad on Jun 16, 2014 15:45:19 GMT -5
If you like it, re-locate the family at a more lesiurely pace six months or a year from now. If not, ride out the transfer list. You can do anything for a year. While I agree with the first part of this, make sure you know the transfer list situation before you rely on it. You may luck out and be in a place where you can transfer in a year or less. Or you could, like me, be waiting to transfer for a MUCH longer time (I am well over 2 years). This is of course one of the pitfalls of accepting an ALJ position elsewhere, while hoping to transfer closer to home in the near future. There are no guarantees on how long it may take to transfer back to your home area.
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Post by privateatty on Jun 16, 2014 15:51:00 GMT -5
I think there are a number of considerations to evaluate. And what I say is based upon being an ALJ generally as I am not an ODAR ALJ.
One, for alot of you, your salary will double or increase by as much as a third. Over twenty or more years that's a lotta dough. Factor in increased social security retirement and agency contributions to your pension and we are in the million dollar range. For me, it was the exact opposite.
Two, you can forget about evaluations and the anxiety of that and promotions. In fact, you can forget about most things at work except your docket, how to run it smoothly and with a minimum of wasted interaction (things like sucking up and being phony). Yes, you will have to toe the CALJ line as to how to do your job, but as workdrone, hamster, mcb and many others have stressed, its not THAT hard. You know you can do it.
Three, you are making a difference--a HUGE difference, in people's lives. Whether or not a down and out pilgrim gets disability is often THE big thing, right next to what got them there. The job may be repetitious, but when it comes to basso profundo to the poor son of a gun if front of you, well, its not exactly a trip to the dentist for them.
I'm not going to list the last consideration because I need to mix apples and oranges here.
First of all, with all due respect to all of you non-ALJs, you really don't know what you are considering. Au contraire you may cry. Folks like sratty and funkyodar have been SAs and in the trenches you say. Yes, but they don't really know what's its like to have this kind of freedom, to make these decisions on a daily basis, to be called "Judge", etc. This job changes you, for the better or worse, depends on your character. If you think its just another job, think again. You have been an advocate and given direction as an atty; now you are a Judge, with all its metaphysical trappings. You will look at things differently, often in ways that you haven't anticipated.
That having been said, if your family comes first and you don't want to uproot (and don't feel you have to), don't. For me there was no such choice. We have had a few stories of one spouse leaving to try to parent from afar with another home with the kids. In one described scenario it was super tough on her. Point is, marriage and raising kids is tough enough without a major stressor like this, particularly if you are not both 100% on board. I know a little about this, but I digress. More than a few ALJ posters here have had a happy ending and come home in a year or three and were satisfied with their sacrifice. I suspect that the decision was based on sound economics and a super strong marriage. Be realistic, brutally so, with what you have, not what you want.
Finally, you need to have a vision of what you want to do with your career. Life is too short not to be happy, in your personal and professional life. Some of us took a good long while to achieve that, but as Shakespeare so famously said: "All's well that end's well."
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Post by hopefalj on Jun 16, 2014 15:58:13 GMT -5
Thanks for the responses. Dudeabides, that is an excellent point about not being able to evaluate the employer/job. I think that is one of the things troubling me most about it. As an outsider, I have not had a chance to ask questions of anyone except for the people on this board and no opportunity to see where I would be working or who I would be working with. That's nerve-wracking given all the things I would have to give up to take the job. To me, the job sounds somewhat similar to being a bankruptcy judge (I have some experience in that arena), and I think I would enjoy it for the most part. And I'm honestly sick of actively litigating at this point (due in large part to the hours and the two small kids). In my very humble opinion, it would be similar to the job of a bankruptcy judge if bankruptcy judges only heard consumer cases and their related issues. From my time in bankruptcy in the long, long ago, there were at least some interesting adversarial cases that came out of a bankruptcy petition. Not sure you get that in the SSA arena, although you can have the rare instance of some nuanced issue pop up.
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linky
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Post by linky on Jun 16, 2014 18:51:25 GMT -5
I moved once just for the job and wished I had not. I think it has to be a total package. Most of us already have good to great jobs. If you are still weighing pros and cons, I think it is likely not a good move. You have to know it is right, then the decision is really easy. For me, a narrow GAL means that I know its right if I get the job. This is just one view for what it is worth.
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Post by funkyodar on Jun 16, 2014 19:41:14 GMT -5
i really dont want to come across as a jerk, but not sure i get where people are coming from on the "no time to research the jobs or the cities" line.
We have been applying for the same job since March of 2013. Thats 15 months. When we submitted our apps, we had an unprecedented 2 weeks to research the cities we chose to include in our GALs. When we were notified we made the cert we got a whole other week to parse thru the cities we qualified for, eliminate any we didnt want and, for the first time in recent history, were allowed to even rank our city preferences. I acknowledge that much can change over 15 months and a city you originally felt you could stand is now out, but i seriously question if there is some more than miniscule number of folks still questioning whether they would take the job in any city still in their gal at this juncture.
As to the job itself, its just a job. As for gathering knowledge about it....after 15 months of the great info on this board, all the tests, interviews, two trips to DC....i find it really hard to believe someone on the cert at this point still doesnt have a pretty good idea of what the job entails, what is expected, etc.
again, i dont mean to come off like a pompous jerk, but if, at this late stage, you still dont know if you want the gig or if you honestly wouldnt accept in 30 seconds or less if they offered any of your top say 12 ranked cities....i doubt this is the job for you. Drop out now and make room for some of the second certer hopefuls that harbor no such worries or doubt.
just my own generally worthless opinion.
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Post by JudgeRatty on Jun 16, 2014 20:16:39 GMT -5
i really dont want to come across as a jerk, but not sure i get where people are coming from on the "no time to research the jobs or the cities" line. We have been applying for the same job since March of 2013. Thats 15 months. When we submitted our apps, we had an unprecedented 2 weeks to research the cities we chose to include in our GALs. When we were notified we made the cert we got a whole other week to parse thru the cities we qualified for, eliminate any we didnt want and, for the first time in recent history, were allowed to even rank our city preferences. I acknowledge that much can change over 15 months and a city you originally felt you could stand is now out, but i seriously question if there is some more than miniscule number of folks still questioning whether they would take the job in any city still in their gal at this juncture. As to the job itself, its just a job. As for gathering knowledge about it....after 15 months of the great info on this board, all the tests, interviews, two trips to DC....i find it really hard to believe someone on the cert at this point still doesnt have a pretty good idea of what the job entails, what is expected, etc. again, i dont mean to come off like a pompous jerk, but if, at this late stage, you still dont know if you want the gig or if you honestly wouldnt accept in 30 seconds or less if they offered any of your top say 12 ranked cities....i doubt this is the job for you. Drop out now and make room for some of the second certer hopefuls that harbor no such worries or doubt. just my own generally worthless opinion. AGREE 100%. It's hard to see comments about ambivalence in those in the first cert stage when there are those of us who would like to be in those shoes and would take any city to get the job without hesitation. But it is what it is. I will go almost anywhere and if I receive any offer it will take a split second to say YES. I started researching this job 10 years ago and lurked on this board since it started. I wish there was a measurement for "desire" for this job!
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Post by hal3000 on Jun 16, 2014 20:37:02 GMT -5
There is a measurement for desire-- if you went through all this for all these months-- some have been at this for years-- and gotten this far and been successful enough to be on this first cert, it clearly demonstrates your desire. It is hard to imagine going through all this and getting this far and still thinking you might reject an offer. I think the process, itself, is designed, intentionally, or not, to weed out the people who are ambivalent, etc. If you got this far, you must be committed in a big way to this process, and the prospect of getting this job. Just the competition for these positions, alone, makes them more desirable. As far as locations, it's a crapshoot, at best. Who knows if the place you end up will be what you hoped, or something entirely different. This process is a lot about blind faith, it seems. You could get the place you hoped for all along and be miserable; or get sent someplace else you thought was less desirable and find happiness-- at least till you transfer. Who knows?
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Post by Highlander on Jun 16, 2014 20:58:01 GMT -5
I can understand someone feeling ambivalent about a significant career/life change. If in the end they decide to turn down an offer, another applicant will step in and accept. I don't see this as a problem.
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