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Post by belgrade on Jun 16, 2014 10:04:49 GMT -5
From the union's email 6/16/14, per the union-ODAR mngt committee meeting 6/4-5/14:
"20. Budget and Staffing Update (OBFS)
Don Hartline reported the following to the Committee:
• up to 90 ALJs will be hired this fiscal year; interviews are going on now.
• 200 clericals and writers will be hired and assigned to the National Case Assistance Centers (NCACs) (Baltimore and St. Louis) for case pulling and writing; 405 will be hired and distributed to Regional Office (he was unable to say whether these staffers would end up in the hearing offices). He noted that current staff to Judge ration that the Agency uses is 4.5:1. Mr. Hartline affirmed that staff to Judge ratio in hearing offices will fall.
• For FY 2015, 110 ALJs and associated staff will be hired. Mr. Hartline could not identify how many Judges would be going to hearing offices and how many to the NHCs.
• As of the end of April 2014, there were 1,465 ALJs in ODAR.
21. Staff positions in hearing offices going to be filled? Or, will attrition occur?
Jack Allen advised that ODAR/OCALJ has received a certification for those who are eligible to be Judges. There are 47 locations for assignment and there is a separate list for each location. Once ODAR makes an offer to someone on the list, ODAR cannot go on to the next city until a response is received, if any of the same names appear on the next list.
ODAR received 2200 names on the 47 lists from OPM, but there were in actuality only 158 different names. Jack noted that there are fewer names on the list of those with agency experience, as OPM is seeking more litigation and trial experience for applicants.
He will provide the list of 47 locations. The two new Judge training sessions are projected for Mid Sept to Oct then Mid Oct to Nov. There are 950,000 cases pending at ODAR."
I hope this helps stop wild theories and guesses on other threads. Best of luck to all.
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Post by JudgeRatty on Jun 16, 2014 11:13:34 GMT -5
This works out to be about 47 cities/certs with 47 names on each. 47 x 47= 2209.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2014 12:11:41 GMT -5
With these numbers, even if 110 more people are hired by the end of the calendar year there will not be that many new people for SSA to look at unless they three strike a lot from the first cert or pick a lot of new cities to fill. I would say those who finished the interviews for the first cert are in a very good position.
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Post by 71stretch on Jun 16, 2014 12:19:36 GMT -5
This works out to be about 47 cities/certs with 47 names on each. 47 x 47= 2209. But the 47 lists contain only 158 different names, as the original post indicates. |
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Post by 71stretch on Jun 16, 2014 12:22:49 GMT -5
With these numbers, even if 110 more people are hired by the end of the calendar year there will not be that many new people for SSA to look at unless they three strike a lot from the first cert or pick a lot of new cities to fill. I would say those who finished the interviews for the first cert are in a very good position. There will still be a number of new people to look at. 90 or so of those 158 distinct names that appeared on any of those 47 lists will disappear from the register, others will be three struck. Which cities will be involved is pure speculation at this point. |
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Post by Ace Midnight on Jun 16, 2014 12:32:39 GMT -5
But the 47 lists contain only 158 different names, as the original post indicates. I'm trying to imagine how that looks on paper - we've had large GALs, small GALS, and now some restricted prioritized GALs - looking at ~70 "non-hires" if they fill 90 spots in 47 locations. That won't even be enough to 3 strike all 70, should they choose to go that route. If they're allowed to go slot-for-slot, they'll be able to 3 strike a maximum of 60, but, realistically about 45 or 50. If they can only strike city-for-city, they'll only be able to 3 strike a maximum of about 30, and realistically only about 20. |
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Post by Gaidin on Jun 16, 2014 12:40:34 GMT -5
I wonder if the 158 here is a typo or the 168 given by Bob really did drop by exactly 10?
Remember too that there will reportedly be 20 more positions hired next time around. There will almost certainly be an OMHA hire before the 2nd cert. That will probably knock out about 7 high scorers. I think the 2nd cert will have a substantial group of new folks especially when you consider the effect of narrow GALs and new cities on a 2nd cert.
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Post by hopefalj on Jun 16, 2014 12:41:56 GMT -5
I always thought you only got one strike per certificate. You get one strike per opening in which you're considered regardless of the number of certs. You can get three strikes on the same cert for sure as it happened in the past in a regular basis. It could theoretically happen even in the new process if there were three hires from one city and you were not selected despite being in the top three candidates each time. |
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Post by Gaidin on Jun 16, 2014 12:42:15 GMT -5
I always thought you only got one strike per certificate. Each position an applicant is given "bona fide" consideration for CAN count as a strike at the agency's discretion. |
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witty
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i tawt i taw a puddy tat (Livingston/Foster/May/ made famous by Tweety B.)
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Post by witty on Jun 16, 2014 12:44:55 GMT -5
Did OPM provide a certificate for each of the 47 locations?
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Post by Ace Midnight on Jun 16, 2014 12:55:26 GMT -5
You get one strike per opening in which you're considered regardless of the number of certs. You can get three strikes on the same cert for sure as it happened in the past in a regular basis. It could theoretically happen even in the new process if there were three hires from one city and you were not selected despite being in the top three candidates each time. That's where I'm at in this process - at some point will that be an appealable issue? - "They three struck me from 1 city - I do not feel I was given bona fide consideration for all three of those spots" - I can see merits to both sides of that argument. In the past, I thought they only counted a strike for the city - regardless of the number of hires. In any event, the second most overt act they can take, other than offering you a job, is to 3-strike you - in other words, if they actively 3-strike you at this point in the process - it is extremely unlikely you were ever going to be hired at least from this register. Having said that, the numbers crunch will likely allow people passed on the first cert (perhaps middling score and a "recommend") to get offers for the possible quick second cert (which, ironically, may have a slate of more broadly desireable locations) - while 3-strikes will be reserved for the "not recommended" and vets that ODAR otherwise does not want. |
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Post by JudgeRatty on Jun 16, 2014 13:43:50 GMT -5
I wonder if the 158 here is a typo or the 168 given by Bob really did drop by exactly 10? Remember too that there will reportedly be 20 more positions hired next time around. There will almost certainly be an OMHA hire before the 2nd cert. That will probably knock out about 7 high scorers. I think the 2nd cert will have a substantial group of new folks especially when you consider the effect of narrow GALs and new cities on a 2nd cert. I wondered about the 158 v 168 as well could be a typo either direction or 10 folks could have dropped off by removing themselves suspending from the register. |
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Post by JudgeRatty on Jun 16, 2014 13:44:39 GMT -5
Did OPM provide a certificate for each of the 47 locations? Yes. |
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Post by HallmarkFan on Jun 16, 2014 13:58:57 GMT -5
I always thought you only got one strike per certificate. You get one strike per opening in which you're considered regardless of the number of certs. You can get three strikes on the same cert for sure as it happened in the past in a regular basis. It could theoretically happen even in the new process if there were three hires from one city and you were not selected despite being in the top three candidates each time. I truly do not understand this 3-strike business. Can anyone break it down for me in even more basic English? Are you saying that if my name makes this current list for 3 cities, and I am not chosen for those 3 cities, I will be blackballed for the rest of the hiring process? Thanks. I am a true newbie at all this. |
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Post by hopefalj on Jun 16, 2014 14:08:47 GMT -5
You get one strike per opening in which you're considered regardless of the number of certs. You can get three strikes on the same cert for sure as it happened in the past in a regular basis. It could theoretically happen even in the new process if there were three hires from one city and you were not selected despite being in the top three candidates each time. That's where I'm at in this process - at some point will that be an appealable issue? - "They three struck me from 1 city - I do not feel I was given bona fide consideration for all three of those spots" - I can see merits to both sides of that argument. In the past, I thought they only counted a strike for the city - regardless of the number of hires. In any event, the second most overt act they can take, other than offering you a job, is to 3-strike you - in other words, if they actively 3-strike you at this point in the process - it is extremely unlikely you were ever going to be hired at least from this register. Having said that, the numbers crunch will likely allow people passed on the first cert (perhaps middling score and a "recommend") to get offers for the possible quick second cert (which, ironically, may have a slate of more broadly desireable locations) - while 3-strikes will be reserved for the "not recommended" and vets that ODAR otherwise does not want. I don't see how it would be appealable. "An appointing officer is not required to consider an eligible who has been considered by him for three separate appointments from the same or different certificates for the same position." If you are in the top three for a given location and the agency makes three different hires from that location, you could be SOL. Of course, I'm not saying that this would happen, but it is certainly legal and permissible. |
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witty
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Post by witty on Jun 16, 2014 14:16:54 GMT -5
Did OPM provide a certificate for each of the 47 locations? Yes. So, if I understand correctly, one candidate whose name appears on three or more certificates in round one could feasibly be three-struck in round one. Correct? |
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Post by moopigsdad on Jun 16, 2014 14:32:06 GMT -5
So, if I understand correctly, one candidate whose name appears on three or more certificates in round one could feasibly be three-struck in round one. Correct? Only if the person received "bona fide" consideration for an open position 3 times. Hence, your name would have had to be in the top three names for three different locations or three different jobs openings and that person was not hired. It doesn't mean that SSA has to three strike you, only that it can do so, if it wishes. |
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Post by gary on Jun 16, 2014 14:33:49 GMT -5
So, if I understand correctly, one candidate whose name appears on three or more certificates in round one could feasibly be three-struck in round one. Correct? Yes. Indeed, one candidate whose name appears on one cert for a single location in which they make three hires could be three-struck if the candidate's score was top-three for all three vacancies and the agency hired three other candidates. |
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Post by hopefalj on Jun 16, 2014 14:40:09 GMT -5
So, if I understand correctly, one candidate whose name appears on three or more certificates in round one could feasibly be three-struck in round one. Correct? Yes, but it could happen for a single city as well if three hires were made from that city. Coffee, there are threads on the subject, but basically three striking boils down to being considered three times and not being hired. SSA has to make a hire from the top three scores for a certain location If you are highest scoring candidate A for NYC but SSA hires candidate B or C for the spot over you, then you would have one strike. If you are then one of the three highest in Atlanta but another candidate is selected instead, you'd get your second strike. One more such situation with SSA hiring someone else out of the highest three scores over you, and you'd have your third strike. At that point, SSA no longer has to consider you for any openings for the remainder of the life of the register even if you are the top scorer for every other opening. I simplified this somewhat, but that's the gist of it. |
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Post by 71stretch on Jun 16, 2014 14:59:55 GMT -5
I always thought you only got one strike per certificate. No. Under the old system with one cert, you could be three struck on that one cert if you got bona fide consideration for three openings. That certainly hasn't changed under this new configuration. They may not need to strike much here. There's so much duplication, that the order in which the offers are made for at least some of the cities matters a lot. As they have accepted offers, people drop off the cert, and someone else moves into the top three. If they do some "planning" in terms of the order they make the calls, (and how they use the ranking of locations), they can fill slots without resorting to the striking to get to who they want as much as they have in the past. Fair to say that the Puzzle Palace will be as puzzling as ever, if not more so, this time around. |
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