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Post by agilitymom on Jul 2, 2014 9:16:05 GMT -5
Okay folks...I don't think you should be worrying about pay setting at this moment in time. After a tentative offer is made you can start worrying. DISCLAIMER: I don't have any particular expertise in SSA ALJ pay setting, but based on what I do know, SSA would not be required to bring anyone in over AL-3/A, which is base pay of $104,900. However, they MAY (and based on what I've seen on the board they do) take into account if you are a current or former federal employee. So for instance, if I were a GS-14, step 10, (and I'm not) my basic pay is $111,203. The basic pay rate for an AL-3/A is $104,900 and for AL-3/B it is $112,900. I could reasonably (under highest previous rate rules) expect that my pay might be set at the AL-3/B level as the base pay for a GS-14, step 10, falls above the AL-3/A basic pay, but below the AL-3/B basic pay. Remember: The only "requirement" SSA has is to bring in a ALJ at no less than AL-3/A ($104,900). Now---Don't worry, Be Happy!
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Post by funkyodar on Jul 2, 2014 9:29:17 GMT -5
I can give a couple examples of this in action.
The first involves myself and not the alj scale. When I interviewed for the AA position they straight up asked if I would accept if offered. I told them, honestly, that I would be taking a substantial pay cut but felt it would be worth it and would accept if offered GS 12. If the offer was GS 11, I would have to think about it. When they called with the offer, it was at 11. I told the lady I needed 24 hours to consider. Within an hour, I got a call from the hearing office telling me they had selected me, to expect an offer call and they had requested that I get the 12. I told them the call had come and it was an 11 and I was looking at my finances to see if I could accept. 20 minutes later, the offering official called back and offered the 12 and I accepted immediately. Strange, I know, but true.
The second example is an insider that finally made alj. Alj 3A was slightly below his previous salary. He did not even have to ask. His offer was for 3B right out of the gate.
Finally, when I had been here about a year, one of the prominent reps in the neighboring bigger metro area (billboard guy) had applied. He had told a couple of our judges he was hoping to get on as sort of a retirement gig. Close shop and work his last years with fed benefits. The offer reportedly came in and he wasnt pleased. He wasnt offered the bigger metro area, but our office a couple hours away and he was offered at 3A. He reportedly told them he wouldnt accept that and would accept 3A if they put him in his home city or would need 3B to come to us. According to what he told a judge friend, he thought he was waiting on their response to his "negotiation" but they treated it as a declination. The guy still has his billboards.
Proceed with caution.
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Post by bartleby on Jul 2, 2014 9:29:59 GMT -5
It seems that they bring everyone in at AL-3A but may offer higher pay for some individuals based on current pay. It seems that someone actually lost pay due to no locality pay where she was assigned. Further, it seems that if one comes in at a higher pay level they don't get annual pay increases until their AL level catches up with their pay. Ie, basic AL level and pay 104,900. Someone comes in at basic AL level and 120,900, they will not get a pay increase until their 2nd anniversary. This may be wrong, but it seems like I recall these facts..
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Post by spousemouse on Jul 2, 2014 9:35:41 GMT -5
The comparison is definitely done without locality pay. Many current or reinstate-able Feds will take a meaningful pay cut to start as an ALJ in a "rest of US" city. Budget adjustments may be required, especially if you are contemplating running two households for a time. I hear the "cart before the horse" concern, but you may have only four weeks to get your financial house in order, so having the outlines of a plan is sensible. Also note, those smaller cities have lower costs of living, and some have no state income tax. If you transfer to a locality pay city, that additional pay is added back in.
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Post by Ace Midnight on Jul 2, 2014 9:51:18 GMT -5
Further, it seems that if one comes in at a higher pay level they don't get annual pay increases until their AL level catches up with their pay. Ie, basic AL level and pay 104,900. Someone comes in at basic AL level and 120,900, they will not get a pay increase until their 2nd anniversary. This may be wrong, but it seems like I recall these facts.. I'm fairly certain this is accurate, Bartleby - they make it so you're not hit in the pocketbook by taking the job, but you have to let everyone catch up before you move forward. Someone who actually knows differently can disabuse us of this notion (I'm 99% sure this is true in the GS).
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Post by hopefalj on Jul 2, 2014 9:58:08 GMT -5
Further, it seems that if one comes in at a higher pay level they don't get annual pay increases until their AL level catches up with their pay. Ie, basic AL level and pay 104,900. Someone comes in at basic AL level and 120,900, they will not get a pay increase until their 2nd anniversary. This may be wrong, but it seems like I recall these facts.. I'm fairly certain this is accurate, Bartleby - they make it so you're not hit in the pocketbook by taking the job, but you have to let everyone catch up before you move forward. Someone who actually knows differently can disabuse us of this notion (I'm 99% sure this is true in the GS). I've found this to be true as well in my experience. I would add that there are no locations without some kind of locality bump, though. No one is making pure base pay. I guess I have a question about general pay and locality adjustments. If you are a 13-5 in SF and make a lateral move to Wichita, are they required to give you a 13-6 or whatever in Wichita, or can they keep you at a 13-5 and have you take the hit because you're in a cheaper locale?
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Post by Ace Midnight on Jul 2, 2014 10:16:36 GMT -5
Hopeful, I think you're stuck with a lateral - the assumption is, the pay is the same and the locality pay compensates you for higher cost of living areas.
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Post by sealaw90 on Jul 2, 2014 10:56:14 GMT -5
I'm fairly certain this is accurate, Bartleby - they make it so you're not hit in the pocketbook by taking the job, but you have to let everyone catch up before you move forward. Someone who actually knows differently can disabuse us of this notion (I'm 99% sure this is true in the GS). I've found this to be true as well in my experience. I would add that there are no locations without some kind of locality bump, though. No one is making pure base pay. I guess I have a question about general pay and locality adjustments. If you are a 13-5 in SF and make a lateral move to Wichita, are they required to give you a 13-6 or whatever in Wichita, or can they keep you at a 13-5 and have you take the hit because you're in a cheaper locale? Hopeful, I thought that was when the '2-step' rule kicks in. You move from 13-5 in SF to a 13-7 in Wichita.
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Post by Ace Midnight on Jul 2, 2014 11:09:31 GMT -5
Sealaw- that's not how it works - it's only with a grade increase that you're guaranteed a 2-step within the general schedule. Like going from a GS-12, Step 7 to a GS-13, using Rest of US - you would be going from $83,395, but 13/1 would only be $82,642 - so you would be placed at GS-13, Step 2 upon promotion and be at $85,396 - but you would not be eligible for a step increase for 104 weeks, I believe.
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Post by sealaw90 on Jul 2, 2014 12:13:38 GMT -5
Thanks Ace. I never had to personally deal with this so I haven't become too familiar with the regs.
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Post by Missundaztood on Jul 2, 2014 12:46:56 GMT -5
I left as a mid-14, so hopefully I will have more intel on this soon!
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Post by privateatty on Jul 2, 2014 15:24:23 GMT -5
I can give a couple examples of this in action. The first involves myself and not the alj scale. When I interviewed for the AA position they straight up asked if I would accept if offered. I told them, honestly, that I would be taking a substantial pay cut but felt it would be worth it and would accept if offered GS 12. If the offer was GS 11, I would have to think about it. When they called with the offer, it was at 11. I told the lady I needed 24 hours to consider. Within an hour, I got a call from the hearing office telling me they had selected me, to expect an offer call and they had requested that I get the 12. I told them the call had come and it was an 11 and I was looking at my finances to see if I could accept. 20 minutes later, the offering official called back and offered the 12 and I accepted immediately. Strange, I know, but true. The second example is an insider that finally made alj. Alj 3A was slightly below his previous salary. He did not even have to ask. His offer was for 3B right out of the gate. Finally, when I had been here about a year, one of the prominent reps in the neighboring bigger metro area (billboard guy) had applied. He had told a couple of our judges he was hoping to get on as sort of a retirement gig. Close shop and work his last years with fed benefits. The offer reportedly came in and he wasnt pleased. He wasnt offered the bigger metro area, but our office a couple hours away and he was offered at 3A. He reportedly told them he wouldnt accept that and would accept 3A if they put him in his home city or would need 3B to come to us. According to what he told a judge friend, he thought he was waiting on their response to his "negotiation" but they treated it as a declination. The guy still has his billboards. Proceed with caution. The third example made me laugh. I'd call it an example of the doctrine of natural selection batting clean up behind OPM and Puzzle Palace.
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Post by bikeboy on Jul 2, 2014 15:42:10 GMT -5
During past ALJ hires, the following was generally true:
Current federal employees will start at a higher ALJ pay level if their current GS base pay is higher than the ALJ step base pay. Everyone else will likely start at the A level, regardless of prior Federal service(separated/retired).
There is no two-step minimum increase. You are changing pay scales from GS to ALJ. If your GS base pay is higher than the ALJ base rate, you will start earning at the ALJ step immediately above your GS base rate.
Current Federal employees (GS-15), be ready to make some tough decisions. Your current Federal agency may not honor your performance bonus for the 2014 fiscal year if you are hired as an ALJ. By sure to ask for it. If you were a valued employee, you may still get it.
Get used to living without that GS bonus. (ALJs get no bonuses). GS bonuses are not considered in your ALJ pay rate determination.
SSA will not honor pending GS step or grade increases. Your ALJ pay rate is based on the federal employee's GS base rate on the date of separation/transfer. If you are due a GS step increase shortly after your ALJ start date, you simply lose that GS step increase, even if you waited three years for it.
Make hard copies of all leave, TSP, health care benefits documentation with you current agency. If you have a TSP loan, stay on top of it during the transfer to SSA. PDF all documents your are required to submit to SSA as part of your hire/transfer.
If it is an important document, it is likely to get lost in the shuffle. Make copies and PDF of everything.
Very little employment advice is provided to new ALJs, particularly regarding moving expenses. You will not be dealing with ODAR regarding any of these employee issues. Read everything. Do not rely on HR staff for advice. That advice will focus on what amounts to the least work for the HR staff, not necessarily for you benefit.
You have worked very hard to get to this point, but an ALJ position may not be the best decision for you and your family. You will not be given much time to accept an offer. You are likely to be offered an undesirable location. You can transfer elsewhere relatively quickly. But, if you are a GS-15 living in your desired city, think hard about this position. The small increase in pay may not be worth it.
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Post by observer100 on Jul 2, 2014 16:03:03 GMT -5
I'm not questioning the accuracy of the predictions/explanations that Bikeboy just shared. But, I do question why it makes any sense that an existing federal employee who is a 15 is able to start at a higher ALJ salary than a retired federal employee who had a salary higher than the starting ALJ level, who is returning to federal service from a private sector position that is higher as well, but that person now has to go back to the entry level pay. Am I correct that this is inequitable?
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Post by privateatty on Jul 2, 2014 16:34:38 GMT -5
During past ALJ hires, the following was generally true: Current federal employees will start at a higher ALJ pay level if their current GS base pay is higher than the ALJ step base pay. Everyone else will likely start at the A level, regardless of prior Federal service(separated/retired). There is no two-step minimum increase. You are changing pay scales from GS to ALJ. If your GS base pay is higher than the ALJ base rate, you will start earning at the ALJ step immediately above your GS base rate. Current Federal employees (GS-15), be ready to make some tough decisions. Your current Federal agency may not honor your performance bonus for the 2014 fiscal year if you are hired as an ALJ. By sure to ask for it. If you were a valued employee, you may still get it. Get used to living without that GS bonus. (ALJs get no bonuses). GS bonuses are not considered in your ALJ pay rate determination. SSA will not honor pending GS step or grade increases. Your ALJ pay rate is based on the federal employee's GS base rate on the date of separation/transfer. If you are due a GS step increase shortly after your ALJ start date, you simply lose that GS step increase, even if you waited three years for it. Make hard copies of all leave, TSP, health care benefits documentation with you current agency. If you have a TSP loan, stay on top of it during the transfer to SSA. PDF all documents your are required to submit to SSA as part of your hire/transfer. If it is an important document, it is likely to get lost in the shuffle. Make copies and PDF of everything. Very little employment advice is provided to new ALJs, particularly regarding moving expenses. You will not be dealing with ODAR regarding any of these employee issues. Read everything. Do not rely on HR staff for advice. That advice will focus on what amounts to the least work for the HR staff, not necessarily for you benefit. You have worked very hard to get to this point, but an ALJ position may not be the best decision for you and your family. You will not be given much time to accept an offer. You are likely to be offered an undesirable location. You can transfer elsewhere relatively quickly. But, if you are a GS-15 living in your desired city, think hard about this position. The small increase in pay may not be worth it. I chased dollars all my adult life until I got this job. While I realize that most of you still are what with kids, mortgages and obligations to loved ones and family, if its JUST about your next paycheck I have to think you are missing a whole heckuva lot. That having been said, I respect that and would gladly seat you at the table. While some may think that I am being a bit, well. you fill in the blank (and that's fine, I can take it), I still stick by my guns. You may wear the Robe, but to quote from sealaw, you are unlikely to feel the Force.
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cat
Member
Fog comes in on little cat feet . . . .
Posts: 28
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Post by cat on Jul 2, 2014 16:35:24 GMT -5
Appreciate bikeboy's advice. As a moderately high 15 with a nice locality bump, I'll take the chance out in Crapland, or East, South, North or West Crapland, and the possible upside. Sometimes there's more to taking a job than just money. If money was the object, I would have left federal service many years ago and made three times what I'm making now.
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Post by privateatty on Jul 2, 2014 16:37:19 GMT -5
I'm not questioning the accuracy of the predictions/explanations that Bikeboy just shared. But, I do question why it makes any sense that an existing federal employee who is a 15 is able to start at a higher ALJ salary than a retired federal employee who had a salary higher than the starting ALJ level, who is returning to federal service from a private sector position that is higher as well, but that person now has to go back to the entry level pay. Am I correct that this is inequitable? Entry level for an ALJ, IMO, is not entry level pay--any more than The Salary for a USDC Judge.
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Post by observer100 on Jul 2, 2014 17:14:53 GMT -5
I think the tone of my inquiry obviously came across wrong. I'm not suggesting that entry ALJ pay is unfair or inadequate. I was only trying to understand why SSA would start an existing federal employee with a higher salary than a person who comes to the government from an even higher salary, and who had previously retired from the fed govt at a pay level higher than even a GS-15. Is there a logical explanation for that? It doesn't seem to be adequate to say "just because they can" or "because it's a buyer's market." If that is the explanation, then why not tell an existing federal employee that she too has to take a pay cut to move into the ALJ job?
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Post by funkyodar on Jul 2, 2014 17:36:27 GMT -5
I'm having a hard time empathizing on this one. I can fully understand those that would be taking a pay cut to take the job not wanting to do that.
I took a nice cut myself when I left private practice for a writer job with odar. It was tough. But the benefits and lifestyle more than made up for it. Now, after a promotion to senior and five years of WIGI, I am just south of the middle of gs13. In the ROU locality pay band. If I get this gig and stay in ROU, it will be a 30k raise. Wow. But even if it wasnt much of a raise or even a small cut it would be worth it. I mean, you get about a 9k raise every year for the first 3. And that first year is essentially two months of training and then working a few momths on a learning curve. By year 7 my salary would be almost double what it is now...
If you feel entitled to start at alj 3B, by all means ask. But dont shoot yourself in the foot over a temporary inconvenience.
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Post by hopefalj on Jul 2, 2014 17:43:31 GMT -5
I think the tone of my inquiry obviously came across wrong. I'm not suggesting that entry ALJ pay is unfair or inadequate. I was only trying to understand why SSA would start an existing federal employee with a higher salary than a person who comes to the government from an even higher salary, and who had previously retired from the fed govt at a pay level higher than even a GS-15. Is there a logical explanation for that? It doesn't seem to be adequate to say "just because they can" or "because it's a buyer's market." If that is the explanation, then why not tell an existing federal employee that she too has to take a pay cut to move into the ALJ job? I believe doing that to a current federal employee is illegal while treating the former employee in such a way is not under the regulations, but I could be (and certainly have been) wrong...
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