mkt
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Posts: 6 
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Post by mkt on Nov 6, 2014 16:03:18 GMT -5
Hello, everyone,
I know that there are older threads on this subject and I did look at them, but in the meantime, I became confused (not a good quality in an ALJ hopeful, to be sure). So I'm wondering, can a new judge ask to transfer to a city that is (or may be) listed on a new cert after his or her first 90 days, and be considered for that city ahead of the names generated for that cert? Or is he or she bound to his or her assigned location for two years?
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Post by JudgeRatty on Nov 6, 2014 16:08:44 GMT -5
Hello, everyone, I know that there are older threads on this subject and I did look at them, but in the meantime, I became confused (not a good quality in an ALJ hopeful, to be sure). So I'm wondering, can a new judge ask to transfer to a city that is (or may be) listed on a new cert after his or her first 90 days, and be considered for that city ahead of the names generated for that cert? Or is he or she bound to his or her assigned location for two years? Hello and welcome! A new judge can put him/herself on a transfer list after 90 days. Whether or not the city is available is another issue. Once cities are on a certificate, the transfer process freezes to allow all the movement with new hires. Now, there are other rules as to how long it takes to be eligible to transfer after you have accepted relo expenses. But in general, without relo playing into it, you can list yourself for up to 5 cities on the transfer list. It used to be 3, but now is 5. |
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Post by 71stretch on Nov 6, 2014 16:11:12 GMT -5
In one of the currently active threads, funkyodar said they were recently told in training that transfers to a city are frozen during the time period there is an open cert for a given city. I don't think that's always been the case, but with the new one cert per city process, that's apparently the way it is now.
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Post by Gaidin on Nov 6, 2014 16:11:25 GMT -5
You can ask for any city (up to 5) on day 91. You can only be considered for transfer to a city when they work the transfer list for that location. As I understand the most recent ALJ contract the agency is obligated to work the entire transfer list prior to hiring. Based on a recent report the agency appears to be interpreting that to mean that prior to pulling a cert they have to work the transfer list. Unless they are hiring it is unclear to me when they might work the transfer list.
The general Board wisdom is that under the new system transfers will be less frequent and you should be prepared to stay where you are initially hired for several years. I would guess maybe even longer if you want to go some place in high demand San Diego, San Francisco, Seattle, Denver, Chicago, DC, New York, etc. If you just want to get to another part of Crapland then your wait may not be as long. Anyway you cut it don't take the job in East Crapland if you can't imagine living there for more than 6 months.
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Post by orchid on Nov 6, 2014 16:14:01 GMT -5
Let's say I want to transfer to popular city A but go to city B first from my crapland location city C. How long after I've been in city B can I put in my request to city A. City hopscotching rules?
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Post by cricket on Nov 6, 2014 16:38:09 GMT -5
Two years
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Post by Who Me? on Nov 6, 2014 18:40:32 GMT -5
So if I understand cricket's post, once you have transferred you have to wait another 2 years before being eligible to transfer again? Does your name remain on the list for the other 4 cities you requested? Or are your requests purged?
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Post by JudgeRatty on Nov 6, 2014 19:03:04 GMT -5
So if I understand cricket's post, once you have transferred you have to wait another 2 years before being eligible to transfer again? Does your name remain on the list for the other 4 cities you requested? Or are your requests purged? Once you accept a transfer you are off the list and you start over in 2 years. |
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Post by funkyodar on Nov 6, 2014 19:26:04 GMT -5
Once hired and placed in an office, there are only a handful of ways to get to a different locale.
1. The transfer list. On your 91st day in service you can request transfer to up to five other odar offices. The transfer list is worked prior to hiring (which opm, the agency and the union apparently) has interpreted to mean prior to request for a cert. Once a request for cert to a particular city has been requested, the transfer list is frozen in regard to that city for as long as there is an active cert. If you receive a transfer, the move is at your expense and you are removed from the list for two years.
2. You can apply for a hocalj position. That is a competitive application process but, if selected they pay relo.
3. You can apply for a position at an nhc. Not sure if relo is paid.
4. There are no more hardship "transfers." They now do hardship details for 120 days extendable for another 120. But then you return to your original office.
5. Apply for a position with another agency.
6. Quit.
So, if you are striking/ranking cities I cant stress enough the importance of putting real thought into whether you and your family can live there or be separated for an extended period.
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Post by grassgreener on Nov 6, 2014 19:45:15 GMT -5
Once hired and placed in an office, there are only a handful of ways to get to a different locale. 2. You can apply for a hocalj position. That is a competitive application process but, if selected they pay relo. Relo for HOCALJ positions is not an automatic - seen a couple of HOCALJ announcements in which repo is not paid - I think it's dependent on the RCALJ. |
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Post by Who Me? on Nov 6, 2014 19:50:26 GMT -5
So if a new ALJ is offered a transfer, must they accept? Any ramifications if they decline to accept the transfer and stay on the list for future consideration?
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Post by luckylady2 on Nov 6, 2014 19:59:14 GMT -5
One more thing that I'm not sure has been covered. I'm an outsider, but my understanding is that in the transfer process, when you apply for a transfer your name goes on a LIST, and to be more precise, to the BOTTOM of the list. IF there is a vacancy to be filled in one of your desired cities, the list is worked from the top down, so even if vacancies come up, they may be filled by other ALJ's who are higher on the list than you.
Of course, if you accept a transfer, then you can't apply again for 2 years and once again, your name goes to the bottom of all the transfer lists for the cities you request. My understanding is that, assuming you apply to transfer to 2 cities, A and B, accepting a transfer to City A will take you off all the other transfer lists, so if you transfer to City A hoping to eventually end up in City B, you end up being off of the B list for 2 years and start at the bottom again for that city when you apply for another transfer 2 years later.
There are reports on the Board of people waiting for years upon years to transfer to the more popular locations.
It also appears that in the last year ODAR has made some major changes to cut down on transfers: 1) no more hardship transfers; 2) allowing applicants to rank city preferences and then tending to make offers for an applicant's higher-ranked city if possible; and 3) now explicitly announcing that transfers to a city are frozen once a cert has been pulled for it.
These are not small measures. In the past, the general consensus was that you should take a job wherever you could stand it for 6 months and then you'd get to transfer to some place better. In the past, it often appeared that transfers may have ended up filling spots that had been the subject of a cert. In the past, people used hardship transfers as a way to move up the list quickly. All that seems to be going away. Add in the new cert-per-city process and it really is a whole new ball game.
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Post by spousemouse on Nov 6, 2014 21:43:49 GMT -5
I don't understand all this pessimism about the transfer process. Within the last year, the transfer process was updated to work better for judges, not worse. Judges can list up to 5 cities. In the winter, every city with a vacancy had an email notice sent to every judge on the list (not just the top one or two). Judges had to confirm a continuing interest, and then transfer offers went out to the highest interested judge(s). It absolutely included cities on the first cert, as well as many others. People absolutely got moved to big or big-ish cities. Even if it has changed to "freeze" once the cert goes out between the first and second cert, the list would have been worked pre-cert. As long as you are not trying to get someplace with a huge list in the first year, transfer remains a valid option and part of the fabric of government employment.
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Post by mamaru on Nov 6, 2014 23:26:58 GMT -5
The transfer process is part of the Union contract. It may be subject to interpretation, but, for better or worse, the judicial transfer process was changed through collective bargaining, not unilaterally by ODAR.
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Post by funkyodar on Nov 7, 2014 7:05:36 GMT -5
You are absolutely correct. The new contractual provisions regarding transfers are on whole better for the judges. The now allowed email requests, the ability to list five cities as opposed to three and the notification of all on a list instead of just the top are great.
The pessimistic outlook, which I suppose only afflicts recent hires as there lies the biggest impact, is in the interpretation. Just as mamaru notes.
The working of the list prior to a hire has apparently been interpreted to mean prior to a request for a cert for a particular city. I recently saw an email from the union powers that be that confirms this as accepted practice. Once a cert is requested, there are no transfers to that city as long as the cert is active.
By way of illustration, let's say a new alj was hired in august. That judge couldn't be eligible to transfer until November. For our hypo, say the end of November. Meanwhile, odar decides to hire for an open slot in that judge's own personal piece of crapland paradise. There is no one on the list for that locale in early november and two weeks prior to our judge being eligible, odar requests a cert and transfers to that city are frozen.
The union email I saw claims this has always been the process but admits the new hiring reality amplifies the effect. By thw way that email was in response to an experienced judge that had requested transfer just five or six days after a cert was requested. He didnt get it and a newbie was placed there.
Anyway, back to the hypo. In the past our judge wouldn't be locked out all that long. Opm was pretty quick with returning the cert, odar moved rapidly by comparison to today and the cert expired after a hire was made.
But the new playing field has made the interpretation much more impactful. Now, opm sits on the cert requests for quite a long time. Odar takes its time making the hire and because the process is so much more tedious, odar wants the certs to remain active after any initial hire. That way they can hire again from the same certs later without having to go thru the hassle of opm request and wait.
So hypo judge is frozen out of his preferred locale now not the three or four months he would have been in the past but two to three months for opm to return the cert, three months for odar to complete a hire then an indefinite period while the certs remain open.
This current cert is for hires in January. But comments have been made by some higher ups that the same certs will remain active thru an anticipated March hire. Thus, the cities certed are frozen from transfers not just for the open slots that led to the cert, but any that come open there between request and, if reports are accurate, March.
It's just the nature of the beast and the union email I saw says it is an unwinnable fight. But it definitely means transfers to some locales wont be as easy as in the past. And anyone striking or ranking cities with the thought that a transfer will be easy should be cautious.
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Post by Missundaztood on Nov 7, 2014 7:24:25 GMT -5
I really missed you funky! So glad you are out of hibernation!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2014 7:25:52 GMT -5
<object style="position: absolute; z-index: 1000;" id="plugin0" width="1" type="application/x-dgnria" height="1"><param name="tabId" value="{2C46AA9F-6966-49AD-A903-809D2AD3D0EC}"></object>Spuosemouse is on point; there is no need for pessimism about transfers if you are a current ALJ. Put in your request on the 91st day from date of hire, request up to 5 cities. Sit back and chill. Are you at the bottom of the list for each city? Yes, it is first come first served. But...............many of the listees have been there for quite a while just fishing for transfers. That really does not mean they actually want to or will accept a transfer to that specific city. Perhaps they now like their locale, they have bought a house, their partner has landed a new good job, the kids are in school locally. So if they are at the top of the list and offered a transfer, more than likely they will refuse and the offer comes down to you next on the list. Now the real question: who gets priority for openings? A sitting ALJ or a new applicant? The sitting ALJ on the transfer list will get priority to that city opening before a new applicant. This only make sense as the sitting ALJ is already a federal employee with the agency. The new applicant is not yet an employee. Once you do accept the transfer, then yes you will stay there for 2 years before you can transfer again. That does not mean you cannot immediately request to put your name on the transfer request list again. Go ahead and do that; it may be more than 2 years before another opening comes up and by then your name may have filtered to the top of your selected list again. And Big ditto to Funky: If you and/or your family have not, by now, discussed in full open gory detail, the impact of either everyone moving to a new locale with loss of friends, schools, etc., or that you will be separated from them for months/years, missing birthdays, school events, etc., then, quite bluntly you are not ready for the offer from Bob nor work for this agency. This is a "lifetime" appointment; that means what it says. Long before Bob calls you must have that discussion and an agreed resolution with yourself and/or your family about every possible city on your list. Otherwise to simply accept the job and land in a city which you hate (likely then resulting in your hating your job), your family hates and refuses to move and you are miserably alone for months/years, is not fair to yourself, your family and the agency. This is one time you are either going to be fully in or you are going to be fully out. If after all you have already gone through, you (and/or family) now have unresolved uncertainy or doubt, then consider stepping aside and letting another applicant proceed ahead of you. That is only fair to everyone.<object style="position: absolute; z-index: 1000;" id="plugin0" width="1" type="application/x-dgnria" height="1"><param name="tabId" value="{2C46AA9F-6966-49AD-A903-809D2AD3D0EC}"></object> |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2014 7:40:00 GMT -5
<object style="position: absolute; z-index: 1000;" id="plugin0" width="1" type="application/x-dgnria" height="1"><param name="tabId" value="{2D9A61F9-B450-4D70-9F4B-651296F393D6}"></object>And if anyone can tell me how to get rid of this coding on my posts, that would be great......   |
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Post by ALJD on Nov 7, 2014 7:53:08 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2014 8:01:28 GMT -5
I have trained my dragon, thanks!
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