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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2014 12:13:50 GMT -5
LOL. I just logged off and thought- DOINK!!!!!!!! I mean late 2015. Forgive me, I'm blonde. Now let me delete that post and write a new one. And thank you, Gary, for immediately quoting it before I had time to delete it
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Post by hopefalj on Dec 15, 2014 12:32:21 GMT -5
The ex-President of the NTEU (writers) union has around 4 years as an ALJ and his retirement book is online to be signed... Link to this? I think this ALJ would be pretty surprised to hear this news...... I can see his guestbook, so I would hope he's not surprised. But I would argue that it doesn't really seem all that uncommon for a guy in his 60s to retire with over 30 years of federal service, particularly when his wife is retiring this year. Plus, he's been over 500 for all but one of his years as a judge.
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Post by sealaw90 on Dec 15, 2014 13:47:38 GMT -5
Link to this? I think this ALJ would be pretty surprised to hear this news...... I can see his guestbook, so I would hope he's not surprised. But I would argue that it doesn't really seem all that uncommon for a guy in his 60s to retire with over 30 years of federal service, particularly when his wife is retiring this year. Plus, he's been over 500 for all but one of his years as a judge. Plus he now has his high-3 year salary for his retirement computation. Not bad...
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Post by maquereau on Dec 15, 2014 13:58:48 GMT -5
Happy, I wonder if they even teach persuasive writing in law school anymore... From what I've seen, no. In fact, I've seen people whose walls are covered with all kinds of advanced degrees and impressive looking credentials who have the most incredible difficulty expressing themselves in writing. I don't understand how this situation has come about, but it has. I would be thrilled beyond belief to receive a draft that did not have substantial errors in grammar, spelling, punctuation, vocabulary, etc. If I were to receive one actually written in a persuasive style, I might just drop over dead.
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Post by sealaw90 on Dec 15, 2014 14:17:30 GMT -5
Happy, I wonder if they even teach persuasive writing in law school anymore... From what I've seen, no. In fact, I've seen people whose walls are covered with all kinds of advanced degrees and impressive looking credentials who have the most incredible difficulty expressing themselves in writing. I don't understand how this situation has come about, but it has. I would be thrilled beyond belief to receive a draft that did not have substantial errors in grammar, spelling, punctuation, vocabulary, etc. If I were to receive one actually written in a persuasive style, I might just drop over dead. It seems like school is not really teaching kids how to write, and I'm referring to high school. I don't know if this is going to help my kids in the long run, but with all their texting and tweeting and emailing, I worry that they will have no real knowledge of how to write, so I insist they use complete words and complete sentences when texting to me, and I reciprocate. Hopefully they learn that it is always better to use proper English, especially with adults. It seems like the younger generation thinks it's okay to write in short grunts and squeaks. At work, I tell them we are not a pod of dolphins, it usually gets a laugh and then I can correct errors in their dreadful use of language without really offending them.
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Post by gary on Dec 15, 2014 14:30:55 GMT -5
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Post by luckylady2 on Dec 15, 2014 14:43:34 GMT -5
From what I've seen, no. In fact, I've seen people whose walls are covered with all kinds of advanced degrees and impressive looking credentials who have the most incredible difficulty expressing themselves in writing. I don't understand how this situation has come about, but it has. I would be thrilled beyond belief to receive a draft that did not have substantial errors in grammar, spelling, punctuation, vocabulary, etc. If I were to receive one actually written in a persuasive style, I might just drop over dead. It seems like school is not really teaching kids how to write, and I'm referring to high school. I don't know if this is going to help my kids in the long run, but with all their texting and tweeting and emailing, I worry that they will have no real knowledge of how to write, so I insist they use complete words and complete sentences when texting to me, and I reciprocate. Hopefully they learn that it is always better to use proper English, especially with adults. It seems like the younger generation thinks it's okay to write in short grunts and squeaks. At work, I tell them we are not a pod of dolphins, it usually gets a laugh and then I can correct errors in their dreadful use of language without really offending them. The text-y spelling and grammar are what really get to me. It's becoming mainstream English and the more formal, expository style is required less and less. So much less precision of language and virtually no appreciation of le mot juste. I suppose it's more like a throwback to pre-standardized spelling - let's all jump back to the 1790's and sound out everything to figure out what is being conveyed.
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Post by gary on Dec 15, 2014 14:47:07 GMT -5
It seems like school is not really teaching kids how to write, and I'm referring to high school. I don't know if this is going to help my kids in the long run, but with all their texting and tweeting and emailing, I worry that they will have no real knowledge of how to write, so I insist they use complete words and complete sentences when texting to me, and I reciprocate. Hopefully they learn that it is always better to use proper English, especially with adults. It seems like the younger generation thinks it's okay to write in short grunts and squeaks. At work, I tell them we are not a pod of dolphins, it usually gets a laugh and then I can correct errors in their dreadful use of language without really offending them. The text-y spelling and grammar are what really get to me. It's becoming mainstream English and the more formal, expository style is required less and less. So much less precision of language and virtually no appreciation of le mot juste. I suppose it's more like a throwback to pre-standardized spelling - let's all jump back to the 1790's and sound out everything to figure out what is being conveyed. I had no idea lol dated back to the 1790s. What to say of rotflmao.
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Post by luckylady2 on Dec 15, 2014 14:47:53 GMT -5
On the other hand, I think of writing for a judge years ago, who absolutely abhorred the lawyerly custom of capitalizing words for emphasis and coming up with shorthand monikers for items and concepts. She said the capitalization, in particular, made her feel like she was reading Winnie the Pooh instead of a legal brief. Point taken.
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Post by luckylady2 on Dec 15, 2014 14:49:36 GMT -5
The text-y spelling and grammar are what really get to me. It's becoming mainstream English and the more formal, expository style is required less and less. So much less precision of language and virtually no appreciation of le mot juste. I suppose it's more like a throwback to pre-standardized spelling - let's all jump back to the 1790's and sound out everything to figure out what is being conveyed. I had no idea lol dated back to the 1790s. What to say of rotflmao. Most sources attribute the spread of the use of moveable-type printing presses for the push toward standardized spelling (and concurrently, the invention of the typo).
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Post by gary on Dec 15, 2014 14:52:59 GMT -5
I had no idea lol dated back to the 1790s. What to say of rotflmao. Most sources attribute the spread of the use of moveable-type printing presses for the push toward standardized spelling (and concurrently, the invention of the typo). The Judge I worked for had a secretary who claimed mistakes in documents were not her typos, but rather our thinkos.
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Post by sealaw90 on Dec 15, 2014 15:27:37 GMT -5
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Post by chessparent on Dec 15, 2014 18:12:32 GMT -5
In defense of decision writers, many of whom are also attorneys with the same education as the posters in this thread, I just spent ten hours drafting two fully favorable hearing decisions because I could not reconcile the judges' illegible and ill prepared instructions with the facts of each claim.
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Post by Propmaster on Dec 15, 2014 18:58:05 GMT -5
It seems like school is not really teaching kids how to write, and I'm referring to high school. I don't know if this is going to help my kids in the long run, but with all their texting and tweeting and emailing, I worry that they will have no real knowledge of how to write, so I insist they use complete words and complete sentences when texting to me, and I reciprocate. Hopefully they learn that it is always better to use proper English, especially with adults. It seems like the younger generation thinks it's okay to write in short grunts and squeaks. At work, I tell them we are not a pod of dolphins, it usually gets a laugh and then I can correct errors in their dreadful use of language without really offending them. The text-y spelling and grammar are what really get to me. It's becoming mainstream English and the more formal, expository style is required less and less. So much less precision of language and virtually no appreciation of le mot juste. I suppose it's more like a throwback to pre-standardized spelling - let's all jump back to the 1790's and sound out everything to figure out what is being conveyed. Yet for some reason, the longer "myself" seems to have become the pronoun of choice for anyone who wants to sound high-falutin'. I had a judge come in to my office the other day and ask me to send an e-mail to "person X and myself." And I said, "You are educated enough and in a high enough position that I cannot let it pass. I cannot send it to yourself, only you can do that. I can send it to you." And it took him a second to figure out what I was talking about. It's my latest pet peeve, since I've lost the battle over "impact" as a verb.
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Post by luckylady2 on Dec 15, 2014 23:33:27 GMT -5
My top ones are "utilize" instead of "to use," "it's" used as a possessive pronoun, "your welcome"
<img alt=" " video="<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/8Gv0H-vPoDc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>" src="//images.proboards.com/v5/bbcode/video-preview.png">
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Post by moopigsdad on Dec 16, 2014 8:08:11 GMT -5
My top ones are "utilize" instead of "to use," "it's" used as a possessive pronoun, "your welcome" <img alt=" " video="<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/8Gv0H-vPoDc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>" src="//images.proboards.com/v5/bbcode/video-preview.png"> Thanks luckylady2 for giving me an "earworm" as now I can't get that tune out of my head again. I loved the video.
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Post by lizdarcy on Dec 16, 2014 8:31:18 GMT -5
"loose" instead of "lose" the use of "per se" for any reason in general conversation the word platform as a verb, as used by the Long Island Rail Road
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Post by maquereau on Dec 16, 2014 9:29:48 GMT -5
Thanks for trying to uphold standards. Now you'll be known as a pedant.
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Post by maquereau on Dec 16, 2014 9:34:59 GMT -5
In defense of decision writers, many of whom are also attorneys with the same education as the posters in this thread, I just spent ten hours drafting two fully favorable hearing decisions because I could not reconcile the judges' illegible and ill prepared instructions with the facts of each claim. I know just how you feel! What happens ultimately is that the good writers know what to do and are often able to better prepare a decision without a whole lot of input from the judge. Sometimes the input isn't worth a darn, as Chessparent notes. I urge writers to check with the judges if the instructions don't make sense. For the best writers, I'd say to just go ahead and write it up the way it needs to be done. Chessparent, now you'll probably go on to ALJ and the agency will lose one more good writer.
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Post by maquereau on Dec 16, 2014 9:37:28 GMT -5
The text-y spelling and grammar are what really get to me. It's becoming mainstream English and the more formal, expository style is required less and less. So much less precision of language and virtually no appreciation of le mot juste. I suppose it's more like a throwback to pre-standardized spelling - let's all jump back to the 1790's and sound out everything to figure out what is being conveyed. Yet for some reason, the longer "myself" seems to have become the pronoun of choice for anyone who wants to sound high-falutin'. I had a judge come in to my office the other day and ask me to send an e-mail to "person X and myself." And I said, "You are educated enough and in a high enough position that I cannot let it pass. I cannot send it to yourself, only you can do that. I can send it to you." And it took him a second to figure out what I was talking about. It's my latest pet peeve, since I've lost the battle over "impact" as a verb. LOVE IT! Yeah, I've given up on "impact" as well.
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