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Post by Gaidin on Jan 16, 2015 10:51:25 GMT -5
I have been trying to figure out how to categorize or name things in the new normal of ODAR hiring. I don’t experience with the previous normal but in reading about it I got the impression of a fairly linear process. Lots of mystery about how the train worked but there was a pretty good idea that it was going to follow a known track. This new process with each city being its own cert as well as some new wrinkles in the offer process seems to have required that ODAR rethink the process even as it implements it. As evidence all you have to do is compare the hiring in summer 2014 to the hiring in December 2014.
If you have ever been involved in reworking a tried and true process to something new with very different rules then you know that it is like building an airplane on the runway. Things change because what seemed like it would work doesn’t once implemented and new unforeseen challenges emerge (think 48 hours to respond being changed to 24).
That being said we (including me) keep talking about the 2nd cert or supplemental cert but now we are in what I would categorize as the 2nd supplemental cert of the 2nd cert and that is a ridiculous way to try to keep up with things. I would not be surprised if in two or three weeks we get another small group of cities. Will that be the 3rd supplemental of the 2nd cert or is there enough time to call it a 3rd cert even if its only 8 cities?
That leads me to the point of this whole thing since it appears ODAR has had to switch from a train running down the tracks to a sail boat tacking with the wind we need to rethink how we communicate what is happening. There was some discussion about numbering the hiring classes and I think that is as good nomenclature as anything else. However, as indicated above the certs are trickier. Therefore, I suggest a new system, one that I will be adopting (particularly in polls) until somebody else comes up with something better. I will simply identify certs beginning with yesterdays by date. So instead of the 2nd supplemental of the 2nd cert it will be the 1/15/15 cert. So even if Tuesday they release a cert for 1 location (hopefully one of mine) it will be the 1/20/15 cert and not the 3rd supplemental or 3rd cert or whatever.
I know this has been a long post full of odd transportation metaphors for what is in essence a simple topic. I just wanted my reasoning to be clear when I create future polls or just discuss the subject in other posts.
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Post by Gaidin on Jan 16, 2015 10:55:07 GMT -5
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Post by gary on Jan 16, 2015 11:17:28 GMT -5
We know that the second set of certs included more cities than they have told us about. So it is possible all 7 of the new cities were in fact part of the second set of certs. It is also possible they are 7 new certs recently obtained. Or they could be a combination of new and old certs. I don't think in this Brave New World of ALJ hiring we'll ever know.
I do think talking about hiring classes makes sense. We will at some point know when those start so we're not faced with the same perpetual uncertainty about what's going on. I would refer to them by the date the lucky few start at their duty station rather than the training class start date, i.e., January hiring class, March hiring class, etc. However, as long as we have a convention about that it doesn't matter so much which date we use.
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Post by anotherfed on Jan 16, 2015 11:18:02 GMT -5
What was once a linear process is now a circular one. It is a shame that all the intell developed over the years is now virtually useless. <sigh>
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Post by Gaidin on Jan 16, 2015 11:25:58 GMT -5
We know that the second set of certs included more cities than they have told us about. So it is possible all 7 of the new cities were in fact part of the second set of certs. It is also possible they are 7 new certs recently obtained. Or they could be a combination of new and old certs. I don't think in this Brave New World of ALJ hiring we'll ever know. I do think talking about hiring classes makes sense. We will at some point know when those start so we're not faced with the same perpetual uncertainty about what's going on. I would refer to them by the date the lucky few start at their duty station rather than the training class start date, i.e., January hiring class, March hiring class, etc. However, as long as we have a convention about that it doesn't matter so much which date we use. The bolded section is why I think its better to talk about certs based upon the date they are sent to candidates. I concur with the underlined portion. The date should refer to when people start at the new office. |
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Post by JudgeRatty on Jan 16, 2015 11:32:52 GMT -5
We know that the second set of certs included more cities than they have told us about. So it is possible all 7 of the new cities were in fact part of the second set of certs. It is also possible they are 7 new certs recently obtained. Or they could be a combination of new and old certs. I don't think in this Brave New World of ALJ hiring we'll ever know. I do think talking about hiring classes makes sense. We will at some point know when those start so we're not faced with the same perpetual uncertainty about what's going on. I would refer to them by the date the lucky few start at their duty station rather than the training class start date, i.e., January hiring class, March hiring class, etc. However, as long as we have a convention about that it doesn't matter so much which date we use. The bolded section is why I think its better to talk about certs based upon the date they are sent to candidates. I concur with the underlined portion. The date should refer to when people start at the new office. Agree. This seems the most logical and least confusing. |
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Post by anotherfed on Jan 16, 2015 11:33:53 GMT -5
As for naming the certs, I think the date is too cumbersome. I think 1/15/15 should be "George."  |
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Post by gary on Jan 16, 2015 11:44:08 GMT -5
We know that the second set of certs included more cities than they have told us about. So it is possible all 7 of the new cities were in fact part of the second set of certs. It is also possible they are 7 new certs recently obtained. Or they could be a combination of new and old certs. I don't think in this Brave New World of ALJ hiring we'll ever know. I do think talking about hiring classes makes sense. We will at some point know when those start so we're not faced with the same perpetual uncertainty about what's going on. I would refer to them by the date the lucky few start at their duty station rather than the training class start date, i.e., January hiring class, March hiring class, etc. However, as long as we have a convention about that it doesn't matter so much which date we use. The bolded section is why I think its better to talk about certs based upon the date they are sent to candidates. I concur with the underlined portion. The date should refer to when people start at the new office. I agree with that cert naming convention. |
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Post by gary on Jan 16, 2015 11:46:10 GMT -5
As for naming the certs, I think the date is too cumbersome. I think 1/15/15 should be "George." I fear people would fight over what to name their favorite certs, or worse, law firms would buy naming rights. |
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Post by luckylady2 on Jan 16, 2015 13:16:33 GMT -5
As for naming the certs, I think the date is too cumbersome. I think 1/15/15 should be "George." Like hurricanes? How apt! |
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Post by luckylady2 on Jan 16, 2015 13:31:17 GMT -5
Therefore, I suggest a new system, one that I will be adopting (particularly in polls) until somebody else comes up with something better. I will simply identify certs beginning with yesterdays by date. So instead of the 2nd supplemental of the 2nd cert it will be the 1/15/15 cert. So even if Tuesday they release a cert for 1 location (hopefully one of mine) it will be the 1/20/15 cert and not the 3rd supplemental or 3rd cert or whatever. First, Gaidin, you're absolutely right that we need a better nomenclature & yours isn't bad at all. My impression of the new system is that we've gone from single admission to rolling admissions, a la applications to colleges. I'm going to suggest a slight revision to make it by week instead of day because i It appears that it can take ODAR more than a day to get its emails out Sometimes people get called for an interview or get an interest email before the get an actual city name it can take days for people to report things to us on the Board What we still can't figure into everything well is the extent to which ODAR is keeping existing certs open across more than one hire and going deeper into the register. |
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Post by sealaw90 on Jan 16, 2015 14:26:01 GMT -5
We have three events going on (really four but I think we've agreed not to use FC class dates) almost simultaneously
1- when email notifications go out that you made a cert for a city/multiple cities
2- when phone calls go out that you were selected for the city of your choice (top or bottom of list)
3- when you are starting at your new home ODAR locale
Each of these are momentous events and need to be recorded, acknowledged, saluted by the board members and otherwise talked about for those who wish to talk and lurked at for those who wish to lurk. Each step also probably needs a different type of poll.
We need a naming convention for each event - I do not want to diminish each step, because for some of us, that may be the only step you get to, for others, you may get to each step.
For steps 1 and 2, it sounds like the week of xx/xx/2015 is a good name. For step 3, we could probably get away with the month, just to keep it simple.
I probably didn't cover everything, just thought I'd throw this out there.
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Post by sandiferhands (old) on Jan 16, 2015 15:03:23 GMT -5
So we'll refer to the 1/26/15 class (report to duty station date). If the process of creating that class included multiple certs (eg a "main" cert of 50 on 12/1/14, a "supplemental" cert of 10 cities on 12/15/14, and a "second supplemental cert" of 2 cities on 12/28/14, we might see a post like:
"I didn't make the 12/1/14 cert but was included in the 12/15/14 cert. My friend ALJudyblueeyes squeaked in the last cert on 12/28/14 for the 1/26/15 class."
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Post by sealaw90 on Jan 16, 2015 15:28:34 GMT -5
So we'll refer to the 1/26/15 class (report to duty station date). If the process of creating that class included multiple certs (eg a "main" cert of 50 on 12/1/14, a "supplemental" cert of 10 cities on 12/15/14, and a "second supplemental cert" of 2 cities on 12/28/14, we might see a post like: "I didn't make the 12/1/14 cert but was included in the 12/15/14 cert. My friend ALJudyblueeyes squeaked in the last cert on 12/28/14 for the 1/26/15 class." I dunno. I was thinkin' more along the lines of "BobMarley58 got an email the week of November 2, 2014 and was on the certs for 28 cities. He will be interviewing December 2nd. " "I heard phone calls are going out for offers the week of January 12, 2015" "Hey, BobMarley58 was offered a job and will be starting at ODAR Crapland west in March 2015." |
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Post by moopigsdad on Jan 17, 2015 7:26:53 GMT -5
I don't think we can properly name the certs because in reality each one (for each city) is separate. I think we can only name the hires, such as January, March, etc. the best example is the January hire was based upon the Pre-Christmas cert, but so were some of the March hires. It will just add to the confusion for future Board readers. Perhaps, we just say the months that certs were pulled and the months of hire for those months of certs and leave it at that IMHO.
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Post by Gaidin on Jan 17, 2015 9:23:00 GMT -5
There will be months with multiple cert releases. We have already seen that. That's why I suggest we name them for the day of their release. Others have suggested that we use the week of their release as the date. I am not opposed to that. If we tie it to the date of the release then it's easier to go back and track trends. I don't think you can connect certs to hires directly anymore.
Better to say "I was on the 1/15/15 cert. Then I was hired for March 2015."
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Post by moopigsdad on Jan 17, 2015 10:14:23 GMT -5
Assuming you know which cert you were hired from. (i.e. Milwaukee was on pre-holiday cert and is on latest cert, too. So, if hired for there which one was i hired from?)
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Post by Pixie on Jan 17, 2015 12:27:21 GMT -5
Glad you guys are sorting this out; it is too complex for my pixie like brain to absorb. When fully sorted, let me know and we will adopt it. Pixie.
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Post by gary on Jan 17, 2015 12:47:49 GMT -5
If I get hired the date of the cert on which they hired me is not going to matter to me.
On the other hand: 1) at this time I am interested in the cities for which they are interviewing and hiring for a hiring class to have an idea of whether I might be in the running for that class; and 2) I have an academic interest in knowing how the process is actually working.
However, I think we need to work from what is knowable to us. It would be nice if Bob would tell somebody what cities are in play for say the March hiring class, but I don't think we can count on that. I think the best we can do on a fairly regular basis is to go with the dates of the earliest emails we hear of.
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Post by Missundaztood on Jan 17, 2015 13:06:39 GMT -5
Just some thoughts. Having received now, what five of these lists from SSA? I think if we use the date, we use the date that the first mass emails go out. Meaning, I know that we have had some folks who were alerted that they were on the certs early, I suspect for interviewing purposes, before the bulk of the certs went out, and I think using one of those dates is just too early. (No offense to the folks who received early notification, Congrats! Just trying to simplify.)
Also, what do we do if we get a list and it asks us to to re-rank our original list, as was done in the spring and winter but not now? As far as I am concerned, it is really hard to refer to that as two different dates because some people will have the first list without any additional cities, and some people will have additional cities that by re-ranking them, essentially supersedes the first list.
What about sort of a hybrid for those of us who aren't great at dates? What if we do something like naming them like hurricanes and have Pix and ALJD put a legend at the top of the forum? So why not make the cert with the bulk of the emails that came out on 1/15/2015, with the 7 cities, the "Charlottesville cert" because we have already discussed C'ville quite a bit (or we can name it one of the cities that is a surprise on the list, alphabetically, or first to report gets to name, or whatever). Of course, it would be ironic if we called it the C'ville cert and there were no hires for C'ville...yeesh.
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