dwfl
Full Member
Posts: 32 
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Post by dwfl on Apr 2, 2015 2:01:06 GMT -5
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Post by firehouse9 on Apr 7, 2015 13:47:40 GMT -5
Does having a position like attorney adviser with the ssa help at all with getting an ALJ position with them (assuming that you otherwise passed the ALJ qualifications)? |
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Post by JudgeRatty on Apr 7, 2015 13:59:20 GMT -5
Does having a position like attorney adviser with the ssa help at all with getting an ALJ position with them (assuming that you otherwise passed the ALJ qualifications)? This topic has been discussed for many years. The new process for this current register is more heavily concentrated with litigation based experience. The one prior had more insiders than this one. Now, I do NOT want to start the debate over insider v outsider status again, but I will say that ODAR historically prefers insiders who have good track records because they are "known" entities as far as their performance. It can also count against you if you are not a good team player and do not produce adequate work, so it cuts both ways.
For the first year or so, insiders will hit the ground running and do better because they are familiar with the systems and processes. However, after a period of time, it all washes out as outsiders learn the ropes. Will it help? Maybe. I took the ODAR position as an attorney advisor in 2007 to help my prospects. At that time the hiring process was different than it is now. Would I do it again thinking it would help my odds? Yes.
But that is my opinion and not the opinion of the agency, nor is it the opinion of the vast numbers of outsiders who have been hired and who are doing well as ALJs.  I think having good references, good reputation, strong work ethic, litigation background, and desire to do public service work would be more important than anything else.
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Post by moopigsdad on Apr 7, 2015 14:18:09 GMT -5
Does having a position like attorney adviser with the ssa help at all with getting an ALJ position with them (assuming that you otherwise passed the ALJ qualifications)? This topic has been discussed for many years. The new process for this current register is more heavily concentrated with litigation based experience. The one prior had more insiders than this one. Now, I do NOT want to start the debate over insider v outsider status again, but I will say that ODAR historically prefers insiders who have good track records because they are "known" entities as far as their performance. It can also count against you if you are not a good team player and do not produce adequate work, so it cuts both ways.
For the first year or so, insiders will hit the ground running and do better because they are familiar with the systems and processes. However, after a period of time, it all washes out as outsiders learn the ropes. Will it help? Maybe. I took the ODAR position as an attorney advisor in 2007 to help my prospects. At that time the hiring process was different than it is now. Would I do it again thinking it would help my odds? Yes.
But that is my opinion and not the opinion of the agency, nor is it the opinion of the vast numbers of outsiders who have been hired and who are doing well as ALJs. I think having good references, good reputation, strong work ethic, litigation background, and desire to do public service work would be more important than anything else.
Insider versus Outsider, I am steering clear of that minefield altogether. It is a no-win situation for everyone. Nice points though sratty. In the present process, will it help you get an ALJ position? Possibly, but it is not as much of a positive factor in the hiring practice as it was in the past, as sratty stated. |
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Post by ba on Apr 7, 2015 14:33:42 GMT -5
Do your job well. Work hard and produce a quality product while getting good experience. Do that and you'll be a good candidate whether you work for SSA or somewhere else.
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Post by christina on Apr 7, 2015 19:13:12 GMT -5
firehouse, i agree wiht sratty. how much outside experience do you have? it def helps to have some outside experience to get on as alj although i have seen attorneys get picked up as ALJ's whose legal career was primarily at odar.
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Post by mamaru on Apr 8, 2015 7:37:03 GMT -5
As an insider with more outside than inside experience, I agree with much of what has been said, but would like to add the obvious which is that you should not try to become a decision writer unless you think you would would genuinely enjoy writing decisions. Realistically, there are not a lot of promotional opportunities for lawyers at ODAR. In my office 13 writers applied for ALJ, three ended up with NORs, and only one of those has been hired. There are a lot of good things about this job but getting promoted within SSA is a long shot and the type of work you will be doing will not enhance your marketability outside the agency. I think making a move is a good idea only if you are willing to embrace being a writer for the rest of your career. If you are doing it only as a means to an end, you risk being stuck in a job that isn't fulfilling.
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Post by JudgeRatty on Apr 8, 2015 8:26:30 GMT -5
As an insider with more outside than inside experience, I agree with much of what has been said, but would like to add the obvious which is that you should not try to become a decision writer unless you think you would would genuinely enjoy writing decisions. Realistically, there are not a lot of promotional opportunities for lawyers at ODAR. In my office 13 writers applied for ALJ, three ended up with NORs, and only one of those has been hired. There are a lot of good things about this job but getting promoted within SSA is a long shot and the type of work you will be doing will not enhance your marketability outside the agency. I think making a move is a good idea only if you are willing to embrace being a writer for the rest of your career. If you are doing it only as a means to an end, you risk being stuck in a job that isn't fulfilling. Amen. Very good post mamaru . Similar in my office. MANY applied for ALJ, I was the only one to make the register. It was a huge cut and disappointment for many. I have outside experience as well. There are VERY few promotion opportunities from Attorney Advisor. They have cut back on the Senior Attorney program and there have not been any promotions to GS 13 in a while, and unsure if they will be doing so in the near future. I now know I was lucky to make SAA when I did. So the max potential as it stands right now is GS 12.
Once you are in the position, it does not take long to become less and less marketable since you get further and further away from the courtroom experience. So I agree with mamaru, apply if you want the job of a writer and would be willing to stick with it...permanently. When I applied for the AA position, I knew all of this and wanted the job regardless. If I am not fortunate enough to get the call for ALJ, I will be happy in my SAA job (albeit very sad for a while, but life will go on and I will continue with my current job).
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Post by maquereau on Apr 8, 2015 8:35:10 GMT -5
Totally agree with mamaru's and Sratty's posts. I came on as a writer and didn't even really know at the time what an ALJ was. My career path is probably similar to Sratty's, and I got lucky enough in the timing of events to get my ALJ application in at a favorable time and get hired. If you have good writing skills, you will do well at the writer job. If you don't, you will have a miserable time and you will make the judges for whom you write miserable as well. If you perform well for a period of time, you may have the opportunity to make senior attorney. They used to say it was the best job in the agency; I know I thought it was great when I had that position. But don't count on being able to make ALJ out of the writer slot.
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Post by christina on Apr 8, 2015 18:58:08 GMT -5
i agree with recent posts made too. people who seem to have great shot at getting picked up are those that have some judicial experience, whether that be in a court or administratively. ample litigation does not hurt either. the promotional opportunities for ODAR attorneys have dropped within last few years and it is dead ending at a GS-12 now for many attorneys. You can definitely make more at other agencies and get a wider range of experience. some perks of ODAR are ample telework and since you don't have court, your schedule is pretty free. for example, if you want to take Tues the 8th off, you can take it off without checking your scheudule for court, depositions, or other pressing conflicts so long as you have enough leave built up. if you have kids and want to make their little league game, start at 6:30 that day, leave at 3pm, and you can get to the game.
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I think having good references, good reputation, strong work ethic, litigation background, and desire to do public service work would be more important than anything else. 
