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Post by Pixie on Apr 16, 2015 10:09:35 GMT -5
Hmmm - maybe we need an intervention somewhere! No need for an intervention from me; WorkDrone can do an excellent job of taking care of himself..
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Post by mamaru on Apr 16, 2015 11:04:37 GMT -5
LOL - I didn't mean by you, Pixie. I meant by their HOCALJ!
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ebb
New Member
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Post by ebb on Apr 17, 2015 6:49:19 GMT -5
Thanks, everyone - I did not expect this to turn into such a giant thread! And to be clear, when I took the exam many moons ago, my job was a lot less happy than it is now, which changes the calculus for me. I very much appreciate everyone's thoughts on this.
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Post by Missundaztood on Apr 17, 2015 7:58:43 GMT -5
Thanks, everyone - I did not expect this to turn into such a giant thread! And to be clear, when I took the exam many moons ago, my job was a lot less happy than it is now, which changes the calculus for me. I very much appreciate everyone's thoughts on this. It is such a long time. Glad to hear things changed for the better (often we read about problems that have come up in the meantime; glad that is not the case for you)! Best wishes, ebb!
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Post by Propmaster on Apr 17, 2015 12:22:07 GMT -5
Not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but, none of you know what the job is. Especially the insiders. They have a remote idea, but until you do this for a couple of years and realize the strain and pressure will you know the job. When I was a writer and when I was a senior attorney, come quitting time, I was done. No more ODAR until teh next morning or Monday. When I became a Judge, I suddenly realized this is a 24/7 job. You are contantly thinking about cases, researching some nuance, Editing some writer that did not have a clue, trying to move all of your cases contantly so none sit in any status for too long. Some pressure is from the Agency, but the rest is self-inflicted. We are professionals or we wouldn't be here. We attempt to succeed in everything we touch. Some may find the work easy, but I promise you if you do, you don't know what you are doing. We are the ones that sit in the hearing room with the 55 year old woman that recently lost her husband and is in constant pain without medical insurance (so we have no medical evidence of record) that is crying and you know that you are her only hope for the future and yet by being constrained by the Dicta of the Agency, you must deny her. Which way you gonna go? The rubber meets the road and the screeching sound is often reality entering a Bizarro World of ODAR. I hope you all get the chance to decide for yourself if it is to be or not. Just don't give up your soul. Peace and the Kitties say Hi!! You have really good points Bartleby, but I have yet to see any insider think the ALJ job is easy peasy. I think we just want more of a challenge from the current positions we hold. The ALJ position is NOT an easy job and you are absolutely right about so many nuances. Nuances that ALJ training (or decision writer training) will not teach and learning the nuances only comes with experience. Experience as a rep helps and experience as a writer helps. But it is not the same as actually doing the work you do. Totally agree. It is emotional work since you are dealing with people who are in the worst place of their lives for one reason or another, some due to their impairments, others due to a combination of poor choices, the economy, and/or criminal backgrounds. You care about your work and that is evident in all of your posts. Thank you for posting the "other" side of things. It is important for all to know the good and the bad about this job, BEFORE saying yes to an offer. I hate to stray from the topic, but I think it was covered, and I have a follow up to the point of not knowing about the job until doing it (which, frankly, is probably true of every job, and indeed of every human experience). I had an epiphany (I think) during a continuing ODAR training class on medical source statements. In the reminder that there does not NEED to be a medical opinion of a claimant's ability to function in order for an ALJ to determine a residual functional capacity based on medical evidence, I realized an important difference (I think) between the job of an SSA ALJ and the job of a writer, attorney adjudicator (who can only make favorable decisions), or law clerk. The point of that part of the training is that an ALJ must use his or her judgment to take the established facts in a case and develop a residual functional capacity, even if there is no medical opinion and even if the medical evidence is scant. The training was probably given, in part, because of the number of ALJs who request medical expert tetsimony at their hearings and essentially say, "what is the claimant's residual functional capacity?" and then adopt the expert's findings as if they HAVE to. Doing THAT is easy. That's abdicating the judicial role. The essence of the ALJ's job - the reason, in my opinion, why the job is highly skilled and worth paying additional wages over a writer's salary - is drawing legal conclusions from evidence where the intervening logical steps are not laid forth explicitly. Anyone (almost) can follow a string of obvious conclusions to their legal end, which is all that is necessary in probably 60-70% of cases (in which there are plenty of opinions from which the ALJ can choose). But consider this scenario: The claimant has objective imaging of moderate degenerative disc disease (which does not imply an inherent level of limitation). The claimant has minimal treatment from a rural clinic where the doctors rotate frequently and which has a policy of not giving medical opinions on cases. The evidence clearly and objectively shows worsening compared to the state agency, non-exmaining medical consultant's opinion from 2 months after application (or is from a state without medical input at the initial level). The claimant is prescribed narcotic pain medication, but does not always use it because it is expensive and he needs to save it for the worst pain. His representative asked for a consultative examination, which the ALJ ordered, but the claimant was (and continues to be) legitimately unable to attend due to a medical emergency unrelated to his back problems and not expected to last 12 months. Third party statements support the claimant's limitations to sedentary work, which would result in a favorable decision being directed by the medical-vocational guidelines. Many many ALJs would 1) wait and try to order another consultative examination, 2) have a medical expert (ME) testify at a hearing, or 3) adopt the DDS MC'c opinion because it is the only medical opinion. But those options do NOT represent ALJs doing their job (based on my still-being-described epiphany). The essence of the difference between being the ALJ and being an employee who reads the same things the ALJ has to know is that the ALJ must MAKE THAT LEAP. The (good) ALJ must use his or her judgment to apply the rules and regulations concerning assessing credibiity and establishing a residual functional capacity when there is insufficient evidence to make it obvious. The ALJ must look at the testimony, look at the lay evidence, look at the x-rays and the course of treatment, and DECIDE the claimant's residual functional capacity and ultimately, the issue of disability. (Or decide there is insufficient evidence and deny the claim at step 2). And then, the ALJ must live with that decision. That is the responsibility that is the essence of the job, and that is the essence of the source of the internal stress (I think, not yet being an ALJ). A judge who will only adopt an existing medical source statement as a residual functional capacity is not being a judge, and is perhaps too scared to be a judge - too scared of having to live with the decision-making. Because that ALJ will apparently willingly treat two hypothetical, identically situated individuals differently based on whether each of their doctors completed a form or not. I believe this is also the source of many of the confusing decisions about which writers complain. An ALJ doing his or her job, to JUDGE, can articulate the basis for his or her residual functional capacity finding, even as simply as, "based on the objective evidence, the medication the claimant takes despite side effects, and the corroborating observations of third parties." Such a rationale can show the writer why the case is light or sedentary and guide review of the evidence. On the other hand, when an ALJ calls a medical expert, who testifies that the claimant can do sedentary work, and the ALJ thereore says, "sedentary," but has no independent idea why that would be so, the writer is forced to look at what might be minimal evidence and that might contradict the ME, and make up a rationale. I don't know. I'm not an ALJ. The way people responded to our dsicussion about the training in my office, however, really made me appreciate the ALJs who were clearly accepting responsibility for their vocation, as opposed to those who thought they are supposed to ask a doctor what to do.
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Post by funkyodar on Apr 17, 2015 13:52:02 GMT -5
Summed it up quite nicely Prop. Now, could you copy that, paste it in an email and send it to a particular magistrate judge in my district that keeps remanding cases on the basis that "an ALJ has no medical degree and is incapable of assessing a RFC without input from a properly trained medical professional"?
Or better yet...send it to OGC so they can finally get some clue as to the argument they should make against said position by said misinformed magistrate.
Excellent post Prop. Thanks,
Funky
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Post by Propmaster on Apr 17, 2015 16:10:49 GMT -5
Summed it up quite nicely Prop. Now, could you copy that, paste it in an email and send it to a particular magistrate judge in my district that keeps remanding cases on the basis that "an ALJ has no medical degree and is incapable of assessing a RFC without input from a properly trained medical professional"? Or better yet...send it to OGC so they can finally get some clue as to the argument they should make against said position by said misinformed magistrate. Excellent post Prop. Thanks, Funky Thank you for the compliment. One of the unfortunate aspects of working exclusively in an area of law that is somewhat self-contained (which, frankly, is part of what I like about Social Security law), is that you know it well, but there are so many people who do not know more than the basics (if those), much less that see the nuances of the law. ALJs no doubt sigh in resignation when the dilettante workers comp lawyer breezes in with arguments about inherent disability values of injuries and copies of deposition records. But also, the courts have difficulty distinguishing between the need for medical evidence, which most circuits agree with the agency is necessary to establish the severity and limitations of an impairment, and medical OPINION evidence, which is gravy, and must be weighed but is not necessary to make a decision. Sigh. I guess the pipedream of universal legal familiarity with the esoterica of SSA law (LMAO) must wait until we can achieve at least universal AC familiarity with it.
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Post by sealaw90 on Apr 17, 2015 20:36:16 GMT -5
Hah, the same can be said of military justice or government contract law. Other lawyers think they can jump in 'cause it's just the same as criminal law or regular contract law but they are vastly different. Sigh, yes. Ignorance is not always bliss...
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Post by whyohwhy on Apr 21, 2015 16:48:59 GMT -5
Some may find the work easy, but I promise you if you do, you don't know what you are doing. (Bart's quote clipped to save space) I hope you all get the chance to decide for yourself if it is to be or not. Just don't give up your soul. Peace and the Kitties say Hi!! Cheer up Bart. It's not as hard as you make it out to be. Quite a few of us hit over 500 dispos and do well enough without thinking about it 24/7 or stress out about it as much as you make it sound. However, I do agree with Bart's point that this job is not for everyone. It can turn folks with the wrong personality into train wrecks. I know quite a few GS/Senior Attorneys/AAs who turned out to be outstanding ALJs. But on the other hand, I know at least one ex-writer in my office who became an ALJ, can't quite cut it and whines about how difficult the job is all the time and is an embarrassment to the rest of us. So to the current candidates, think carefully before you take the job. If you can't handle making lots of important decision at a reasonable pace without losing sleep, this job is not for you. Work drone you clearly don't understand the struggles of an ALJ with a 43% dismissal rate this FY who still manages to be the least productive ALJ in his office. But its the rest of us who don't know how to do the job...
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Post by bartleby on Apr 22, 2015 8:55:07 GMT -5
Whyohwhy, your past postings of your disgust with the Union are surprising considering you didn't mind their help with your so-called hardship transfer getting you home ahead of others on the list. Further, your numbers are all wrong. I am not the least productive ALJ in the office and my dismissal rate is not 43%. Perhaps you and your buddy, Workdrone could get off my back? This is about to get out of hand real quick. I quit putting up with two-faced bullies in the fourth grade.
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Post by crab on Apr 22, 2015 11:00:05 GMT -5
I come from a culture where you don't air your dirty laundry in public. Head down, good attitude, do your job, make positive changes where you can. I think this public bickering and attacks (passive or otherwise) does a disservice to us all, past, present, and future. Free country, free speech, feel free to disagree with me. I'm not a moderator so I'll just voice my opinion here that not only has this conversation derailed off the thread topic but the purpose of the Board as well. From ALJD on the welcome thread:
"This board was created to promote the civilized exchange of information related to ALJ hiring after the trolls infested the old board (aka TOB) back in 2007. Pix and I started this board with the goal to keep it relatively civil and clean of trolls.
The goal here is to promote the free exchange of ideas while avoiding gross personal attacks or pointless flames. While we keep the general forum open for everyone to read, membership is required to post in the general forum and access the polling forum. Signing up means you agree to try and be civil and will listen to the moderators if we ask you to tone things down a little. Disruptive behaviors will result in suspension/ban after the first warning. If you can't behave with some amount of professionalism and courtesy, we don't want to play with you.
Hope we all have a good time and stay civil and respectful to each other."
Just one crab's opinion.
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Post by JudgeRatty on Apr 22, 2015 11:03:35 GMT -5
I am hoping this dust up between Bart, whyohwhy, and workdrone is not indicative of the office environment! Yikes!
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Post by hondo35 on Apr 22, 2015 11:24:34 GMT -5
Mom and Dad can argue. It doesn't mean they don't love eachother. I'm beginning to think Mom and Dad actually DON'T love each other...
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Post by 71stretch on Apr 22, 2015 11:47:38 GMT -5
I come from a culture where you don't air your dirty laundry in public. Head down, good attitude, do your job, make positive changes where you can. I think this public bickering and attacks (passive or otherwise) does a disservice to us all, past, present, and future. Free country, free speech, feel free to disagree with me. I'm not a moderator so I'll just voice my opinion here that not only has this conversation derailed off the thread topic but the purpose of the Board as well. From ALJD on the welcome thread: "This board was created to promote the civilized exchange of information related to ALJ hiring after the trolls infested the old board (aka TOB) back in 2007. Pix and I started this board with the goal to keep it relatively civil and clean of trolls. The goal here is to promote the free exchange of ideas while avoiding gross personal attacks or pointless flames. While we keep the general forum open for everyone to read, membership is required to post in the general forum and access the polling forum. Signing up means you agree to try and be civil and will listen to the moderators if we ask you to tone things down a little. Disruptive behaviors will result in suspension/ban after the first warning. If you can't behave with some amount of professionalism and courtesy, we don't want to play with you. Hope we all have a good time and stay civil and respectful to each other." Just one crab's opinion. Agree. The recent tone of this thread Is making me "crabby" too.
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Post by moopigsdad on Apr 22, 2015 12:01:51 GMT -5
I come from a culture where you don't air your dirty laundry in public. Head down, good attitude, do your job, make positive changes where you can. I think this public bickering and attacks (passive or otherwise) does a disservice to us all, past, present, and future. Free country, free speech, feel free to disagree with me. I'm not a moderator so I'll just voice my opinion here that not only has this conversation derailed off the thread topic but the purpose of the Board as well. From ALJD on the welcome thread: "This board was created to promote the civilized exchange of information related to ALJ hiring after the trolls infested the old board (aka TOB) back in 2007. Pix and I started this board with the goal to keep it relatively civil and clean of trolls. The goal here is to promote the free exchange of ideas while avoiding gross personal attacks or pointless flames. While we keep the general forum open for everyone to read, membership is required to post in the general forum and access the polling forum. Signing up means you agree to try and be civil and will listen to the moderators if we ask you to tone things down a little. Disruptive behaviors will result in suspension/ban after the first warning. If you can't behave with some amount of professionalism and courtesy, we don't want to play with you. Hope we all have a good time and stay civil and respectful to each other." Just one crab's opinion. Well stated crab. The Board should be about civility. If you do not have something civil to say keep it to yourself or do it by personal email. I would state most of us do not really care about the personality issues going on between members. I could post many things, but think the better of it. My mom always said, "If you don't have something nice to say about someone, then it is best to say nothing at all." Those are words I try hard to live by and I think others should strive to live by, too.
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Post by anotherfed on Apr 22, 2015 12:07:15 GMT -5
But I just made a big bowl of popcorn! Seriously, I would amend the sentiments above that limited flame wars about issues are okay if they remain civil; there have been some heated discussions about various issues on the Board since I joined that have been informative and entertaining. But you cross over the line when you start making personal attacks and outing RL identities. That's just uncool. Don't make @aljd and Pixie stop this car!
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Post by Pixie on Apr 22, 2015 14:48:27 GMT -5
Let's all chill and get back on the thread topic, whatever that was. Pixie.
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Post by ba on Apr 22, 2015 15:32:02 GMT -5
Let's all chill and get back on the thread topic, whatever that was. Pixie. I'm pretty sure it was your likelihood of obtaining a transfer if you take an ALJ position with someone other than SSA.
But heck, I can't be sure...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2015 21:27:23 GMT -5
Whyohwhy, your past postings of your disgust with the Union are surprising considering you didn't mind their help with your so-called hardship transfer getting you home ahead of others on the list. Further, your numbers are all wrong. I am not the least productive ALJ in the office and my dismissal rate is not 43%. Perhaps you and your buddy, Workdrone could get off my back? This is about to get out of hand real quick. I quit putting up with two-faced bullies in the fourth grade. What was the topic?
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Post by 71stretch on Apr 22, 2015 21:45:01 GMT -5
Whyohwhy, your past postings of your disgust with the Union are surprising considering you didn't mind their help with your so-called hardship transfer getting you home ahead of others on the list. Further, your numbers are all wrong. I am not the least productive ALJ in the office and my dismissal rate is not 43%. Perhaps you and your buddy, Workdrone could get off my back? This is about to get out of hand real quick. I quit putting up with two-faced bullies in the fourth grade. What was the topic?
That would be in the first post.
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