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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 14:17:50 GMT -5
Sometimes the job just don't fit.
I agree with others; sounds like your mind is already made up, go ahead and let Bob know so he can move forward. Bob woudl appreciate the alert. Move on.
Worst job I ever had was one I held under a micromanager for over 6 years. I and others had to record our daily activities for each and every 6 minutes. This was 8 hours per day 5 days per week, 50 weeks per year. This was back when DayTimer books existed, not the little ones, but the big, 8" x 11" paper ones (no computers back then). I actually recorded more than one time, that the current 6 minutes of activity was spent describing the writing down past 6 minutes of activity and an inifinite looping thereafter. But hey, the job paid for a house, a Ford Econoline Van (very popular back then) and 2 kids to get released from hospital maternity wards.
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Post by Gaidin on Jul 23, 2015 14:22:25 GMT -5
....2 kids to get released from hospital maternity wards. Did you ever threaten to let the hospital repo one of them? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 14:27:54 GMT -5
I would not have been a good American parent if I did not ever threaten same.
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Post by beenlurking on Jul 23, 2015 14:32:47 GMT -5
Sometimes the job just don't fit. I agree with others; sounds like your mind is already made up, go ahead and let Bob know so he can move forward. Bob woudl appreciate the alert. Move on. Worst job I ever had was one I held under a micromanager for over 6 years. I and others had to record our daily activities for each and every 6 minutes. This was 8 hours per day 5 days per week, 50 weeks per year. This was back when DayTimer books existed, not the little ones, but the big, 8" x 11" paper ones (no computers back then). I actually recorded more than one time, that the current 6 minutes of activity was spent describing the writing down past 6 minutes of activity and an inifinite looping thereafter. But hey, the job paid for a house, a Ford Econoline Van (very popular back then) and 2 kids to get released from hospital maternity wards. Papa, I can definitely identify with that job description as I have been there myself but mine was more than 8 hrs and often included showing up on weekends, sometimes just to show up! Ughhh!!!! I hated it. |
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Post by moopigsdad on Jul 23, 2015 14:43:50 GMT -5
If you actually believe that word between humans will not spread among various agencies about an offer made and then being purposely rejected in sole attempt to gain access to another agency....sally forth. I understand where the tone of this comment may be coming from, but as I mentioned earlier, I don't want to waste anyone's time. But in truth, there are some agencies who would approve of this approach and would not care if SSA had been jilted. Of course, those are the same agencies who are probably not planning to hire off the register. Also, another view point to consider, from what I have gathered on this board, if there is someone on the register standing in the way of someone SSA wants to hire, SSA wouldn't think twice about wasting that applicant's time in making them come out to interview, submit all the paperwork just to 3-strike them out of the way. So I don't really feel bad for SSA. I feel bad for the taxpayer and the others on this board, and I wouldn't want to do anything unfairly selfish there that would harm good people like Gaiden, Gary, MPD, and other good folks on this board. Look ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) nobody can tell you what to do, only you can decide what to do yourself. You really don't want an answer, as much as you want confirmation that you are doing the correct thing. Please look at your situation carefully and the effect upon your family and yourself and do what is in your family's and your best interest. I am not going to give you an answer. I can't give you an answer, as I can only give you an opinion and that would be slanted from my viewpoint. Any such opinion from me would therefore be useless to your individual needs. I do appreciate your concern for your fellow Board members. Thank you for thinking of others. You know what you need to do, so just go ahead and do it. Good luck in the future! |
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Post by robespierre on Jul 23, 2015 14:57:20 GMT -5
Consider doing what I have done: suspending yourself from the register. It can be done by simple e-mail to OPM, and I was assured that I could rejoin as long as (a) the register is still alive, and (b) I still meet the licensure requirements.
That'll give you time to think it over and see what develops.
I suspended because I (1) had some personal matters that would make it difficult to relocate, (2) was working on some very interesting arbitrations that I wanted to see through to the end, and (3) wanted one more year of "biglaw" money before taking the public sector salary cut.
I definitely hear what you're saying about the process, and this board, tending to suck you into competing for the job, even if it's not right for you. I wasn't 100% sure I wanted the job either, what with the production quotas, reams of medical evidence, gov't red tape, etc. But I've thought about it a lot and decided I really want to be a judge, no matter the other baggage. I'll probably be un-suspending later this year. It was good to have time to think.
EDIT: The downside of suspending is that you will miss out on hiring while you're suspended, and hiring is hot and heavy now. But you'll be ok. The collective wisdom is that there will be lots of hiring even into '16 and beyond.
EDIT 2: Your avatar is da bomb.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 15:21:57 GMT -5
Fellow board members, between "sally forth" and "no computers back then" comments, some of you may believe Papajudge is nearing retirement at 85, but I can assure you that he looks to be in good health (at least in September 2014) and not a day over 65 (+ or - 10%)!
I had to google "sally forth" and now that I have that knowledge, I will use it in the future just to see what kind of expression I will get from the individuals hearing it, but now, I must sally forth and complete my prep work for hearings tomorrow. Talley ho! (sally forth and talley ho seem to go together to me). See you in November Papajudge! Tiger
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Post by hopefalj on Jul 23, 2015 15:29:06 GMT -5
In defense of the ALJ who quit on the third day of training, not the third day of employment, he got an offer from his former employer meeting his ALJ salary back in his home town on the second day of training, talked it over with his wife, and accepted it. I n accepting the ALJ offer, he had made a tough decision to move and relocate his family because a transfer back to a location that rarely has an opening seemed like a long shot. When he got an offer that would allow the fam to stay put in his hometown, working for an agency he liked, at a significant pay increase, he took it. At least that's what he told others in his training class and there's really no reason to disbelieve it. I agree that being a considerate person requires us to think things through - for the sake of the candidate/family, the Agency, the taxpayer. However, in thinking it through, you cannot possibly consider all of the unknowns. Circumstances can change in ways you can't predict. So I don't think it's fair to say he didn't think it through. My guess is that his family and friends (especially those he used to work with) were thrilled at his decision to quit SSA and return to his old stomping grounds. It's also possible that he may have been clairvoyant and bailed once he realized that his class was cursed. |
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Post by 71stretch on Jul 23, 2015 15:30:43 GMT -5
I think you have analyzed the situation well. You don't want to work for SSA, but would work for other agencies (many of the other agencies don't hire off the register, but hire sitting ALJs from other agencies, including SSA) . If you are not interested in SSA at all, then you should back out now, before interviewing and asking references to tell SSA how great you'd be at a job you don't want.
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Post by robespierre on Jul 23, 2015 16:08:29 GMT -5
Can he tell ODAR he's not interested (or tell OPM he's not interested in ODAR), but stay in contention for other agencies? Just curious.
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Post by funkyodar on Jul 23, 2015 16:17:25 GMT -5
In the end it's just a job. One I am particularly happy with, but that's just me.
Anyone that allows their aspirations of a job to blind them to the affect having that job will have on their family certainly has a tad of dyslexia regarding horse and cart placement.
Your question is a simple one and deserves a simple answer. I assume you have no desire to flip burgers at McDonald's. Thus, you aren't interviewing for such a job. I bet that's the case even if you heard tons of people wanted the gig, that it had good benefits and if there was an online message board populated with people desperately wanting to work under the arches.
If you know you don't want the ssa alj gig, why would you even interview?
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Post by 71stretch on Jul 23, 2015 16:45:37 GMT -5
Can he tell ODAR he's not interested (or tell OPM he's not interested in ODAR), but stay in contention for other agencies? Just curious. He won't come off the register if he declines to interview with ODAR. But, the odds of being hired off the register by any other agency are very small. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 17:05:39 GMT -5
I would love to hear from anyone that has voluntarily bowed out of the process, or at least turned down an opportunity with SSA (or seriously considered it, but went ahead anyway). I had put all of this ALJ stuff in the back of my mind after I got my original NOR in March 2014, moved on to better things in my life, and then a few weeks ago it all came back with the notice that my appeal had been granted, then the call to interview with SSA, and then finding out I may have a pretty good shot at getting a position for a location for which I have been granted a priority consideration. But the fact is I don't want to work for SSA, and the prospect of working at SSA for a few years with the possibility of leaping to another agency no longer wins the cost/benefit analysis. So do I fly out and interview anyway just for the experience of it all, wait to get an offer, and turn it down? Or do I bow out now so as not to waste others' time and the taxpayer money on flying me out? Bow out now so as not to waste others' time would be my advice.
Why anyone with a busy private practice and would not accept the job if offered would fly into Washington DC "just for the experience of it all" is beyond me. I can assure you having flown there twice for this job, Vegas is a much better overnight trip.
Robespierre suggestion gets the bronze medal as runner up; suspend yourself from the register and see where you are down the road.
But there are a lot of Judges from around the country that are taking time away from their offices, dockets, and responsibilities to fly into DC to interview candidates for this position and you are wasting their time if all of the above is true for you. Just my humble opinion and good luck with whatever you decide. Tiger
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Post by sealaw90 on Jul 23, 2015 17:36:46 GMT -5
In defense of the ALJ who quit on the third day of training, not the third day of employment, he got an offer from his former employer meeting his ALJ salary back in his home town on the second day of training, talked it over with his wife, and accepted it. I n accepting the ALJ offer, he had made a tough decision to move and relocate his family because a transfer back to a location that rarely has an opening seemed like a long shot. When he got an offer that would allow the fam to stay put in his hometown, working for an agency he liked, at a significant pay increase, he took it. At least that's what he told others in his training class and there's really no reason to disbelieve it. I agree that being a considerate person requires us to think things through - for the sake of the candidate/family, the Agency, the taxpayer. However, in thinking it through, you cannot possibly consider all of the unknowns. Circumstances can change in ways you can't predict. So I don't think it's fair to say he didn't think it through. My guess is that his family and friends (especially those he used to work with) were thrilled at his decision to quit SSA and return to his old stomping grounds. I wasn't slamming the guy who did that, so I didn't think he needed defending. It was merely for illustrative purposes that folks grab the brass ring and realize it wasn't a good fit on their finger. Thank you for providing amplifying information, which provides additional 'food for thought' for the discussion.
I agree that suspending yourself from the register is an excellent option. I know a few folks that have done that. Not everyone can/should move, situations change, etc.
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Post by ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) on Jul 23, 2015 17:49:01 GMT -5
Consider doing what I have done: suspending yourself from the register. It can be done by simple e-mail to OPM, and I was assured that I could rejoin as long as (a) the register is still alive, and (b) I still meet the licensure requirements. That'll give you time to think it over and see what develops. I suspended because I (1) had some personal matters that would make it difficult to relocate, (2) was working on some very interesting arbitrations that I wanted to see through to the end, and (3) wanted one more year of "biglaw" money before taking the public sector salary cut. I definitely hear what you're saying about the process, and this board, tending to suck you into competing for the job, even if it's not right for you. I wasn't 100% sure I wanted the job either, what with the production quotas, reams of medical evidence, gov't red tape, etc. But I've thought about it a lot and decided I really want to be a judge, no matter the other baggage. I'll probably be un-suspending later this year. It was good to have time to think. EDIT: The downside of suspending is that you will miss out on hiring while you're suspended, and hiring is hot and heavy now. But you'll be ok. The collective wisdom is that there will be lots of hiring even into '16 and beyond. Great wisdom, Robes, thanks. I already cancelled my interview earlier today, but I think I will stay active on the register just in case. It's a shame the process is so poorly designed to pair people with the right agency. |
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Post by 71stretch on Jul 23, 2015 20:19:52 GMT -5
Consider doing what I have done: suspending yourself from the register. It can be done by simple e-mail to OPM, and I was assured that I could rejoin as long as (a) the register is still alive, and (b) I still meet the licensure requirements. That'll give you time to think it over and see what develops. I suspended because I (1) had some personal matters that would make it difficult to relocate, (2) was working on some very interesting arbitrations that I wanted to see through to the end, and (3) wanted one more year of "biglaw" money before taking the public sector salary cut. I definitely hear what you're saying about the process, and this board, tending to suck you into competing for the job, even if it's not right for you. I wasn't 100% sure I wanted the job either, what with the production quotas, reams of medical evidence, gov't red tape, etc. But I've thought about it a lot and decided I really want to be a judge, no matter the other baggage. I'll probably be un-suspending later this year. It was good to have time to think. EDIT: The downside of suspending is that you will miss out on hiring while you're suspended, and hiring is hot and heavy now. But you'll be ok. The collective wisdom is that there will be lots of hiring even into '16 and beyond. Great wisdom, Robes, thanks. I already cancelled my interview earlier today, but I think I will stay active on the register just in case. It's a shame the process is so poorly designed to pair people with the right agency. I don't think it's poorly designed at all. It is what it is. Some agencies want ALJs with federal ALJ experience, so they don't hire from the register. Some do hire from the register, but in far smaller numbers in far fewer cities. So, usually only high scorers make the certs. A lot of people must have turned down OMHA with the new register, as they went way lower in scores than in 2010. |
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Post by anotherfed on Jul 23, 2015 20:37:02 GMT -5
I think you're making the right decision. I have to admit, I see red whenever someone says they don't want the job, but are going to interview "for the experience." If you want experience, join Toastmasters and stop taking up the oxygen of people who DO want the job. My understanding is that one reason for the small classes is that ODAR runs out of time while people take their full 24 hours to think about an offer and then end up turning it down.
People should follow your lead and think about that offer before they interview. If you don't want the job, the responsibility, the agency, or the ultra-glamorous Crapland locations, don't interview. Good luck in your future endeavors. Kudos to you for starting a lively thread on a quiet Thursday.
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Post by bookman on Jul 24, 2015 8:04:54 GMT -5
" I am the girl you (Bob) call up at three, I am the one who will go, (to crapland) I am the one who is so happy to be the one who says yes when others say no..." (I'm the Girl,with apologies to Roberta Flack)
Are you listening Bob?
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Post by privateatty on Jul 24, 2015 8:39:20 GMT -5
I would love to hear from anyone that has voluntarily bowed out of the process, or at least turned down an opportunity with SSA (or seriously considered it, but went ahead anyway). I had put all of this ALJ stuff in the back of my mind after I got my original NOR in March 2014, moved on to better things in my life, and then a few weeks ago it all came back with the notice that my appeal had been granted, then the call to interview with SSA, and then finding out I may have a pretty good shot at getting a position for a location for which I have been granted a priority consideration. But the fact is I don't want to work for SSA, and the prospect of working at SSA for a few years with the possibility of leaping to another agency no longer wins the cost/benefit analysis. So do I fly out and interview anyway just for the experience of it all, wait to get an offer, and turn it down? Or do I bow out now so as not to waste others' time and the taxpayer money on flying me out? My two cents references prior posts: you really don't have all the information to make the informed choice. Its not your fault. You don't really "know" what its like to be an ALJ until you are one. Its not like another legal job--how could it be? Granted the transition from being a lawyer to judge is different for everyone, but at the very least it is transformative. You don't have performance reviews, you don't really have a supervisor per se. Yes, you can be whomever you want in reasonable terms. You're not trying to impress anyone. You are not beholden--OMG, that was sooo big for me (granted I had all those years in private practice). But the biggest enchilada for me was actually judging. Its a metaphysical thing and not at all easy to explain. It dawns on you slowly with the heat of wearing a robe or it can come like a thunderclap or even a menopausal wave  . I LOVE my job. Finally, there are more than a few that have been SSA ALJs for less than a year then jumped ship and went to their Mother Agency--Mother being the operative term here. Good luck and I think its great that you began this dialogue. |
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Post by Propmaster on Jul 30, 2015 13:07:09 GMT -5
I typed the following some time ago in another thread to which I do not want to return people's attention, so I quote from it in relevant part, because it is appropos of the recent posts here (the three apostrophes (''') represent brackets, which cannot be used in these posts, for places where I paraphrased):
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... I have a follow up to the point of not knowing about the job until doing it (which, frankly, is probably true of every job, and indeed of every human experience).
I had an epiphany (I think) during a continuing ODAR training class on medical source statements. In the reminder that there does not NEED to be a medical opinion of a claimant's ability to function in order for an ALJ to determine a residual functional capacity based on medical evidence, I realized an important difference (I think) between the job of an SSA ALJ and the job of a writer ... or law clerk. The point of that part of the training is that an ALJ must use his or her judgment to take the established facts in a case and develop a residual functional capacity, even if there is no medical opinion and even if the medical evidence is scant. The training was probably given, in part, because of the number of ALJs who request medical expert tetsimony at their hearings and essentially say, "what is the claimant's residual functional capacity?" and then adopt the expert's findings as if they HAVE to.
Doing THAT is easy. That's abdicating the judicial role. The essence of the ALJ's job - the reason, in my opinion, why the job is highly skilled and worth paying additional wages over a writer's salary - is drawing legal conclusions from evidence where the intervening logical steps are not laid forth explicitly. Anyone (almost) can follow a string of obvious conclusions to their legal end, which is all that is necessary in probably 60-70% of cases (in which there are plenty of opinions from which the ALJ can choose). ...
'''In certain cases with very little evidence of functional limitation,''' Many many ALJs would 1) ... order another consultative examination, 2) have a medical expert (ME) testify at a hearing, or 3) adopt the DDS MC'c opinion because it is the only medical opinion. But those options do NOT represent ALJs doing their job (based on my still-being-described epiphany). The essence of the difference between being the ALJ and being an employee who reads the same things ... is that the ALJ must MAKE THAT LEAP. The (good) ALJ must use his or her judgment to apply the rules and regulations concerning assessing credibiity and establishing a residual functional capacity when there is insufficient evidence to make '''the answer''' obvious. The ALJ must look at the testimony, look at the lay evidence, look at the x-rays and the course of treatment, and DECIDE ...
And then, the ALJ must live with that decision. That is the responsibility that is the essence of the job, and that is the essence of the source of the internal stress (I think, not yet being an ALJ). A judge who will only adopt an existing medical source statement as a residual functional capacity is not being a judge, and is perhaps too scared to be a judge - too scared of having to live with the decision-making. Because that ALJ will apparently willingly treat two hypothetical, identically situated individuals differently based on whether each of their doctors completed a form or not.
I believe this is also the source of many of the confusing decisions about which writers complain. An ALJ doing his or her job, to JUDGE, can articulate the basis for his or her residual functional capacity finding, even as simply as, "based on the objective evidence, the medication the claimant takes despite side effects, and the corroborating observations of third parties." Such a rationale can show the writer why the case is light or sedentary and guide review of the evidence. On the other hand, when an ALJ calls a medical expert, who testifies that the claimant can do sedentary work, and the ALJ thereore says, "sedentary," but has no independent idea why that would be so, the writer is forced to look at what might be minimal evidence and that might contradict the ME, and make up a rationale.
I don't know. I'm not an ALJ. The way people responded to our dsicussion about the training in my office, however, really made me appreciate the ALJs who were clearly accepting responsibility for their vocation, as opposed to those who thought they are supposed to ask a doctor what to do.
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end excerpt
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. I LOVE my job.