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Post by luckylady2 on Jul 28, 2015 14:53:08 GMT -5
Gaidin and others have made this point in other threads, but I thought it actually deserves its own, especially to get the attention of lurkers and people who are just coming to the board.
Ok, so everybody should know by now that this is NOT your usual lawyer job application. ALL the procedures and rules for applying are different, and responding to the Cert Email and later, if good fortune shines, to a job offer, is no exception - the usual rules are out the window.
When you get an SSA Cert Email, this is the agency saying "we got your name from OPM as qualified to be a judge for these cities, are you still willing to be a judge in any of these cities?" It will also give you a vague time frame, but realistically it's usually within the next 60 days, within which you would have to report for duty at that location with everything from your professional life wrapped up.
THIS IS THE TIME to decide if you can move to any of the cities on your Cert list within the next 2 months or so and start working for ODAR, which means having spouse, children, ailing aunt, the dog, and other family on board, and clients and employers all well-considered with an exit strategy already worked out in your head and ready to deploy if the Magic Phone Call (offering you a job) comes.
Your response to the Cert Email is basically a second commitment to accept a job in any of the cities you designate. (The first being your original designation of a GAL on your original job application.)
Why is this so important? First, because if you really aren't ready and willing to move to East Crapland within the next 2 months, the agency can skip considering you for that slot and look at you for the West Heaven slot you WOULD take. This saves lots of time and effort on the front end for everyone. And remember, if the agency wants to hire you, it might simply rearrange the slots if it knows that you won't really go to East Crapland. AND the agency won't offer you the West Heaven slot - or any other slot in this round of certs - if you are offered a job at East Crapland and decline it.
Second, and much more important to all of us, if you don't respond reasonably quickly to a the offer of a job, you may actually prevent someone else from getting that or another slot in that round of hiring. The agency is always on a short time frame to do its hiring in time to fill the next scheduled class. There's a lot of scheduling to bring all the instructors in, so once they have a training scheduled, they don't slide it. It appears that ODAR counts on candidates giving a fairly immediate response to the call with a job offer. We've had several reports of ODAR not being able to hire as many as they wanted to because the candidates took too much time deciding if they would accept the job once offered. In the first round of hiring under this new Register, they gave candidates 48 hours to respond and were taken aback when several needed that full time and over weekends to come back with a yes or no. So now it's been shorted to 24 hours. You can understand their confusion - they sent you a Cert Email a couple weeks before, and you confirmed that you'd accept a job if offered, so they offer, and now you say you need time to think about it? Really?!
SO the time to DECIDE whether you'd really go to East Crapland (don't knock it, it's my hometown!) - or to any of the cities on your Cert Email - is NOW.
EDIT: One more thing - Remember "the usual rules do not apply"? There is NOTHING to be gained and NO aura of mastery in actually taking 24 hours to respond when you already know the answer. In this context the appropriate thing to do is to give an immediate yes or no, not to take 24 hours merely to "look good."
I'll jump off my soapbox now.....
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Post by Gaidin on Jul 28, 2015 15:00:21 GMT -5
I concur in every way.
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Post by anotherfed on Jul 28, 2015 15:13:22 GMT -5
Well said.
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Post by Velma on Jul 28, 2015 15:16:51 GMT -5
Thank you for this post. It is helpful to have the details spelled out.
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Post by yellowbird on Jul 28, 2015 16:14:16 GMT -5
I agree with everything above. The other side of this coin is that we cannot count our chickens yet. I'm in this limbo world where I need to look for a job as I don't know when (thinking positive) the call will come. It is really hard to interview with prospective employers knowing that I could leave within weeks/months of being hired, or it could be years down the road. I believe in being honest with any prospective employer, but that certainly is not a selling point: "Yes, of course I'll work hard for you and intend to create a long term relationship --- unless I get a phone call that I've been waiting on for 2 years....."
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Post by ba on Jul 28, 2015 16:44:47 GMT -5
I agree with everything above. The other side of this coin is that we cannot count our chickens yet. I'm in this limbo world where I need to look for a job as I don't know when (thinking positive) the call will come. It is really hard to interview with prospective employers knowing that I could leave within weeks/months of being hired, or it could be years down the road. I believe in being honest with any prospective employer, but that certainly is not a selling point: "Yes, of course I'll work hard for you and intend to create a long term relationship --- unless I get a phone call that I've been waiting on for 2 years....." In every interview I had I expressed interest in being with the new employer "unless someone wants to put a robe on me." And both I and the interviewer would chuckle. I didn't tell them I was on the registry though. As a general matter, I think most legal employers understand that a judicial position is viewed as a "can't say no opportunity that I could not have guessed I would receive." Some may think my way of handling it was less than forthright, but I felt it was honest while still keeping what I believed was appropriately private without ruining my employability. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 16:53:05 GMT -5
Excellent post Luckylady. Point on.
As I noted in another post on here, at this point in the process, if you are reading this now then you are quickly arriving at the (to be blunt) eat or be eaten stage.
Having watched (lurked) this forum for eaons prior, having gone through the process myself, and now lurking/watching the same once again, there will now be occuring what I call the final hunt semi-silent phase.
The same scenario happens most everytime as I have watched and lurked. it is much like watching National Geographic safari shows.
At first there is tons of activity, lots happening, everyone going every which way. The safari is wildly alive. Glad handing abounds. But then applicants who have made cert and have been on here quite regularly will strangely and noticeably become quiet, making few if any postings, all but disappearing. People will start asking whatever happened to....?
The missing are stalking, busily separating out from the pack, eyeballing the target, getting their act together, they are putting lives and businesses in order, getting everything tidied up so that when that call comes, they are prepared to immediately pounce. They purposely make themselves stand out from the pack.
Then you will suddenly see the silence break with simple one liner posts out of the blue from long silent posters: "I just accepted XXXX City!" They were well prepared, they will full ready and they were immediately willing to make the final leap and catch the target.
Others, simply were not ready and/or willing to leap and missed.
It is a fascinating process to watch from afar and one can almost predict by simply watching on here, this one, that one will make it. That one, oooo, not so much. And the process will repeat itself over again in a few months.
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Post by FrogEsq on Jul 28, 2015 18:59:45 GMT -5
I received the telephone call in January and have been with ODAR now since March. I went through this application process twice and selected every city on the GAL every time. Yes, I took 24 hours to review everything one last time. And, further, I would recommend EVERY individual who is fortunate to receive an offer do the same. There is NOTHING to be gained and NO aura of mastery in NOT taking 24 hours to respond.
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Post by JudgeRatty on Jul 28, 2015 19:18:53 GMT -5
The very real downside in taking 24 hours is that you will cause others to wait and delay the next calls potentially making the class size smaller due to the time it takes to move on to the next person. If each person took 24 hours, each class would be very small and ODAR would not meet the hiring goal. So, yes,there is a reason to have your answer ready. This is one of the very frustrating things about this process that the folks who call wish we would have ready... the answer. You can discuss the cities anytime before getting the cert email in the 2 years it takes to get this far, and then you can discuss it again when you get the cert paperwork that you must return with the list of cities you agree to take. At that point, you should have it nailed down. Just my 2 cents on what I have heard directly from those who make the calls.  Good luck all! |
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Post by luckylady2 on Jul 28, 2015 19:26:13 GMT -5
Yeah - think about it - if they're trying to hire 90 people for this round and everybody took 24 hours, it would take 90 days!!
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Post by beenlurking on Jul 28, 2015 20:14:26 GMT -5
The very real downside in taking 24 hours is that you will cause others to wait and delay the next calls potentially making the class size smaller due to the time it takes to move on to the next person. If each person took 24 hours, each class would be very small and ODAR would not meet the hiring goal. So, yes,there is a reason to have your answer ready. This is one of the very frustrating things about this process that the folks who call wish we would have ready... the answer. You can discuss the cities anytime before getting the cert email in the 2 years it takes to get this far, and then you can discuss it again when you get the cert paperwork that you must return with the list of cities you agree to take. At that point, you should have it nailed down. Just my 2 cents on what I have heard directly from those who make the calls. Good luck all! My 1/2 cent. I don't know (nor does anyone I suspect) what may or may not happen. But..I got my NOR a couple of weeks ago, my interview call shortly thereafter, and my cert mail the other day requring return by Friday. I have already returned the cert email documents and am leaving in a few hours for my interview. I have made my decision(s) in less than a few weeks. I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone, but poop (as I tell my 2 yr old) or get off the pot. |
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Post by beenlurking on Jul 28, 2015 20:21:30 GMT -5
And if you can't poop now, we'll come back later....when we can.
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Post by luckylady2 on Jul 28, 2015 20:53:39 GMT -5
My original point was just this: unlike an ordinary lawyer job offer where it's almost considered bad form not to take at least 24 hours to consider, in this situation, the agency expects that you will have done that considering a few weeks earlier and will be prepared with an answer. The agency's timing is such that it counts on most people not taking 24 hours. That was it. Just that the usual protocols of an ordinary job offer do not apply.
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Post by Gaidin on Jul 28, 2015 21:12:05 GMT -5
Not everyone will take 24 hours. But if you need it, take it. It's offered for a reason. Geez folks. When you sent the paperwork in you said you would say "yes". The 24 hours is offered so if you miss their call because you're in court you have time to call them back. If you delay so you can think about it some more then you are possibly costing someone else the opportunity to get this job until 2016 at the earliest. You are certainly costing someone else another day to give their employer notice and begin preparations for the next phase of their career. You are also costing the folks at the agency who make the calls time and trouble. If you have questions about taking the job or taking the job in East Crapland then you need to answer them before you hit send on your GAL paperwork. Bob doesn't make the hiring decisions as he calls people. Those decisions are made before the calls ever begin and the folks who make those decisions are not around to give a plan B if you decide to say "no". You have had lots of time to think about it be ready to make a decision. |
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Post by 71stretch on Jul 29, 2015 0:03:19 GMT -5
I wasn't addressing anyone directly. I agree that the great majority of people won't need or take the 24 hours. But those few who do shouldn't be called out as if they are being behaving unreasonably, being obstructionists, or being inconsiderate of others. There are all sorts of reasons someone might use the 24 hours. I can't speak on behalf of an agency, but if an agency expected an answer in less than 24 hours, they wouldn't give 24 hours. It is more likely they understand candidates may need to think about a major decision like this, even after having gone through all these hoops. Take a deep breath. No one here will lose a job because someone else took 24 hours. And there are multiple possible reasons hiring is slower than hoped. Deep breaths, and best of luck to the runners. May the odds be ever in your favor.  Agree with beancounter here. Sorry, gaidin. Everyone needs to do what they need to do in their particular situation. No one here is wearing anyone else's shoes. Most won't take the 24 hours, but those who do don't need to be made to feel they have done something awful to someone else. Good luck, everyone. |
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Post by moopigsdad on Jul 29, 2015 7:01:14 GMT -5
I wasn't addressing anyone directly. I agree that most people won't need or take the 24 hours. But those who do shouldn't be called out as if they are being behaving unreasonably, being obstructionists, or being inconsiderate of others. There are all sorts of reasons someone might use the 24 hours. I can't speak on behalf of an agency, but if an agency expected an answer in less than 24 hours, they wouldn't give 24 hours. It is more likely they understand candidates may need to think about a major decision like this, even after having gone through all these hoops. Take a deep breath. No one here will lose a job because someone else took 24 hours. And there are multiple possible reasons hiring is slower than hoped. Deep breaths, and best of luck to the runners. May the odds be ever in your favor. Agree with beancounter here. Sorry, gaidin. Everyone needs to do what they need to do in their particular situation. No one here is wearing anyone else's shoes. Most won't take the 24 hours, but those who do don't need to be made to feel they have done something awful to someone else. Good luck, everyone. By all means, if you just suffered a stroke or heart attack because you received the hiring call, then please do take the 24 hours to treat your medical condition before answering. It should not take you a full 24 hours to make a decision, which should have been made weeks or months earlier, not when you first get the call. [Just kidding here people. ] In all seriousness, if you need a few hours to consider the offer, then take it, but it shouldn't take you 24 hours to decide. Most people here on the Board are just asking that you be somewhat considerate to others waiting in line behind you for a call. Nobody is calling you a bad person if you take a few hours to decide. Just try to be ready to give an answer when called or very soon thereafter. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 7:36:48 GMT -5
Look at it this way.
You are going for a position in which your sole function will be to make a " yay or nay" decision, over and over, for the next 20 years.
Each of those decisions will impact countless individuals (the claimant, their familes, their survivors, their medical providers, their insurance carriers, the SSA itself) and if favorable will routinely be a +million dollar decision.
You are going to make such a decision arround 500 times per year.
If you wanted to take 24 hours for each such crucial decision, that would mean 12,000 hrs spent doing so. There are approximately 2000 working hours in a year. You will need 6 years then to make what otherwise should be done in one year. Otherwise you are going to have about 4 hours (start to finish) to make such million dollar decisions day in and day out.
You have one decision to make now that you have already been given almost 2 years to review and think about.
Do you actually need another 24 hours to think about it?
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Post by ibnlurkin on Jul 29, 2015 8:13:25 GMT -5
Sorry .. I have to disagree. Of course we all must give these choices careful consideration. This is my third cert. I've had three 3 or 4 cities on the past 2. After consideration .. I pared a city off my last cert... and I'm thinking of paring it further now. So I'm not suggesting anyone should be cavalier. But .... a cert as we all know is not an offer. We did not create this unwieldy, but for the info on this board almost completely opaque process. This is a personal decision. I see zero correlation to a decision on a file. If I'm inclined to make my personal decisions with a dart board that doesn't mean I can't analyze a set of medical records and 30 minutes of testimony and make a reasonable decision in a reasonable amount of time. For some... life is fluid ... the time of an eventual offer (if any) is an important component of the decision.
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Post by tinman on Jul 29, 2015 8:36:29 GMT -5
Sorry .. I have to disagree. Of course we all must give these choices careful consideration. This is my third cert. I've had three 3 or 4 cities on the past 2. After consideration .. I pared a city off my last cert... and I'm thinking of paring it further now. So I'm not suggesting anyone should be cavalier. But .... a cert as we all know is not an offer. We did not create this unwieldy, but for the info on this board almost completely opaque process. This is a personal decision. I see zero correlation to a decision on a file. If I'm inclined to make my personal decisions with a dart board that doesn't mean I can't analyze a set of medical records and 30 minutes of testimony and make a reasonable decision in a reasonable amount of time. For some... life is fluid ... the time of an eventual offer (if any) is an important component of the decision. I have a wife that I owe the courtesy of an in-person conversation once it "gets real" with an offer. A GAL selection is not real. It happens over and over for most people. For some it results in an offer--sometimes right away, sometimes years later, sometimes registers later. Just because I will insist upon an evening to talk about it with her and confirm my belief that we will schlep our family across the country does not mean I can't be decisive. It means that I will be decisive at the appropriate time, which is after I've spoke with her and mulled it over for a night. Sorry to anyone behind me, but I wouldn't begrudge it to anyone in front of me. |
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Post by cheesy on Jul 29, 2015 11:45:18 GMT -5
I am uncertain of the continued utility of this thread, except to allow two divergent perspectives of an intensely personal question to become increasingly heated.
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Good luck all! 
