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Post by JudgeRatty on Oct 28, 2015 16:43:50 GMT -5
Hmmm. This is an interesting issue and I am not sure how OPM would view a pure management role in terms of "preparing for hearing" as you are the one who is supervising those who do the "preparing." I have not met anyone else in this particular situation and kudos to you for taking on a GS position with only a few years of legal experience! That alone speaks highly of you and hopefully this will shine through. All you can do is make the argument once you apply (after you have the 7 years in) and see what they say. I do not know of anyone who has used GS experience as part of the minimum qualifying experience. Quite frankly, most who get to the GS position have already achieved the 7 years either elsewhere or as an attorney advisor. I would suggest using your legal skills to make your argument and put your best foot forward. Part of the challenge in this process is working against the confidentiality agreement and trying to help those in your shoes, so I am not sure I should elaborate more than telling you to use your legal skills.  |
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Post by bartleby on Oct 28, 2015 17:04:21 GMT -5
I would assume that GS experience would not count for legal experience as some GS's are not attorneys, so the GS position does not require legal experience. Further, many hearing offices have HOD''s that are not attorneys, so there is the question about non-attorney supervision of attorneys. IIRC, judicial clerical experience does not count, so???
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Post by JudgeRatty on Oct 28, 2015 17:12:11 GMT -5
I would assume that GS experience would not count for legal experience as some GS's are not attorneys, so the GS position does not require legal experience. Further, many hearing offices have HOD''s that are not attorneys, so there is the question about non-attorney supervision of attorneys. IIRC, judicial clerical experience does not count, so??? Very good points. I had not even thought of this. I think I must have a subconscious desire to forget that some folks get paid the same as attorneys who have no more than a high school education. Just bizarre. (and before anyone starts, yes, some paralegals and GSs are incredible fantastic hard working individuals--just comparing salary and GS level to educational prerequisites here). And you are right, the judicial clerical experience does not count. Thanks Bart! |
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belle
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Post by belle on Oct 28, 2015 21:48:49 GMT -5
Ask your HOD if anything precludes you from making the time to write some decisions as part of your work. Do some of the court remands to maintain your continuity of experience doing administrative law for seven years.
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Post by mattis on Oct 28, 2015 22:33:06 GMT -5
Be sure to retain your 905 attorney series, as a group supervisor. Y can always argue (to OPM) that you remained in the attorney series, while working as a group supervisor, who was also engaged in supervising the attorney writer and/or senior attorney employees. There shouldn't be a prohibition on having your HOD/Chief Judge assign you composite legal duties, via you 905 series, or special legal research projects etc.. In the past 8 years, there have been plenty of sitting ODAR ALJs, whose prior legal experience consisted of being a writer, senior attorney, and/or HOD, and who never engaged in the private practice of law. In theory, they are ready made for the job. The OPM scales tend to tilt in different directions, at different times. For example, 20 years ago an OHA (as it was called then) attorney, with no outside legal experience would, without rare exception, be deemed unqualified to compete. You never know what that agency will do (or not do, i.e. Hacked-but didn't know it ?). |
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Post by nappyloxs on Oct 28, 2015 22:48:41 GMT -5
Be sure to retain your 905 attorney series, as a group supervisor. Y can always argue (to OPM) that you remained in the attorney series, while working as a group supervisor, who was also engaged in supervising the attorney writer and/or senior attorney employees. There shouldn't be a prohibition on having your HOD/Chief Judge assign you composite legal duties, via you 905 series, or special legal research projects etc.. In the past 8 years, there have been plenty of sitting ODAR ALJs, whose prior legal experience consisted of being a writer, senior attorney, and/or HOD, and who never engaged in the private practice of law. In theory, they are ready made for the job. The OPM scales tend to tilt in different directions, at different times. For example, 20 years ago an OHA (as it was called then) attorney, with no outside legal experience would, without rare exception, be deemed unqualified to compete. You never know what that agency will do (or not do, i.e. Hacked-but didn't know it ?). From what I have been told by others in your situations, 905 series does count as legal experience for ALJ. Same series as attorney advisor and senior attorney. Also why people will not take examiner position, the series number does not qualify therefore position does not qualify. |
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Post by saaao on Oct 29, 2015 4:59:37 GMT -5
By my recollection, when you apply for the exam you have to describe your legal experience in detail and break out any non-attorney duties as percentages of your work time. Management duties do not qualify as legal experience and will be deducted from you credited legal time. Given all the variables and pitfalls in the process, whether a future ALJ appointment is something you should plan your career around is highly debatable. However, aside from any OTR adjudication or writing duties you perform GS will for the most part just be dead time as far as OPM is concerned. While it would be excellent experience for an ODAR ALJ to have it will not be a positive until you make it to an an SSA interview, and it will make that interview much less likely (Robert Heller could write a new book based on the process). If ALJ is the only thing you want you need to hew as close to a strictly legal track as you can and I would suggest trying to get to OGC if you can. However if you just want to move up in the agency, management experience will be very helpful
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Post by prescient on Oct 29, 2015 6:59:50 GMT -5
By my recollection, when you apply for the exam you have to describe your legal experience in detail and break out any non-attorney duties as percentages of your work time. Management duties do not qualify as legal experience and will be deducted from you credited legal time. Given all the variables and pitfalls in the process, whether a future ALJ appointment is something you should plan your career around is highly debatable. However, aside from any OTR adjudication or writing duties you perform GS will for the most part just be dead time as far as OPM is concerned. While it would be excellent experience for an ODAR ALJ to have it will not be a positive until you make it to an an SSA interview, and it will make that interview much less likely (Robert Heller could write a new book based on the process). If ALJ is the only thing you want you need to hew as close to a strictly legal track as you can and I would suggest trying to get to OGC if you can. However if you just want to move up in the agency, management experience will be very helpful I was just about to post the same. 95% of your day as a GS will be spent putting out fires with your SCTs, and none of this time counts as qualifying experience. You simply won't have time to write cases, other than one here or there. |
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Post by anotherfed on Oct 29, 2015 15:54:19 GMT -5
Correction: being the Clerk of the Court is not a qualifying job, but being a judge's clerk/attorney advisor does go toward the qualifying experience requirement. That is information I recall from the job posting.
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Post by gary on Oct 29, 2015 15:59:22 GMT -5
From the job announcement:
QUALIFICATIONS REQUIRED:
Preliminary Qualifications:
As part of the qualifications requirements for an ALJ position, an applicant must meet all three of the following requirements:
1. Possess a full seven (7) years of experience as a licensed attorney preparing for, participating in, and/or reviewing formal hearings or trials involving litigation and/or administrative law at the Federal, State or local level;
2. Possess a professional license and be authorized to practice law under the laws of a State, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or any territorial court established under the United States Constitution (see specific details regarding LICENSURE below);
3. Pass the U.S. Office of Personnel Management (OPM) competitive examination which evaluates the competencies, or knowledge, skills, and abilities, essential to performing the work of an ALJ.
Specific details for each of the three requirements above are as follows:
1. EXPERIENCE:
QUALIFYING EXPERIENCE: Applicants must have a full seven (7) years of experience as a licensed attorney preparing for, participating in, and/or reviewing formal hearings or trials involving litigation and/or administrative law at the Federal, State or local level. To be considered as qualifying experience, the types of cases handled under this requirement must have been conducted on the record under procedures at least as formal as those prescribed by sections 553 through 559 of title 5 of the United States Code.
Litigation Experience: Qualifying litigation experience involves cases in which a complaint was filed with a court, or a charging document (e.g., indictment or information) was issued by a court, a grand jury, or appropriate military authority and includes:
participating in settlement or plea negotiations in advance of trial;
preparing for trial and/or participating in trial of cases;
preparing opinions;
hearing cases;
participating in or conducting arbitration, mediation, or other alternative dispute resolution process approved by the court; or
participating in appeals related to the types of cases above.
Administrative Law Experience: Qualifying administrative law experience involves cases in which a formal procedure was initiated by a governmental administrative body and includes:
participating in settlement negotiations in advance of hearing cases;
preparing for hearing and/or participating in trial of cases;
preparing opinions;
hearing cases;
participating in or conducting arbitration, mediation, or other alternative dispute resolution process approved by the administrative body; or
participating in appeals related to the types of cases above.
Non-Qualifying Experience: Experience involving cases with no formal hearing procedure and uncontested cases involving misdemeanors, probate, domestic relations, or tort matters is not qualifying. Listed below are some examples of types of positions which are not qualifying:
Claims Reviewer
Clerk of Court
Conferee
Contracting Officer
Insurance Adjuster
Moderator
Officer of any court not of record
Rating Specialist
State Unemployment Insurance Supervisor
Law Professor
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Post by funkyodar on Oct 30, 2015 7:36:37 GMT -5
Here's a question...we don't have any GSs that are Attys in my office so I don't know. Since all Senior Attys lost their OTR signatory authority unless they are on the National Team, did they also remove such authority from Supervisory Atty's? If not, if GS atty's still have OTR authority, doing a few of those a year would help. But, I suspect they too now reside under the bus.
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Post by redryder on Oct 30, 2015 9:34:13 GMT -5
It is difficult to give you an exact answer as so much depends on the management in your office. Even if you don't have signatory authority, nothing prevents you from reviewing cases for the ALJS for possible OTR dispositions under their signatures. Nor is there any reason that you can't be the go-between to assist the judge who wants to issue a decision OTR but needs someone to contact the rep about an amended onset date. Then there are those offices that do pre-hearing conferences to meet with claimants/reps to discuss the posture of the case, any evidentiary problems, updated medical info, etc. I suggest you spend some time learning your new GS job. Once my group and I worked out the day-to-day operations, I had time to do "other duties as assigned" with the HOD's and HOCALJ's blessings. I never spent 90% of my time dealing with techs. A good lead handles most of those work issues.
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Post by christina on Oct 30, 2015 11:33:56 GMT -5
participating in settlement negotiations in advance of hearing cases;
preparing for hearing
preparing opinions;
participating in appeals related to the types of cases above.
if you have a good relationship with HOD and HOCALJ, see if they will let you spend some time on the above. if some of your duties involve assisting judges with any of the above, you can make an argument that time is qualifying legal experience. And keep writing some decisions, even if it is a handful or less per month.
I think redryer's post above was great for your question too.
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Post by papresqr on Nov 4, 2015 16:17:46 GMT -5
A relatively new GS in my office does not have the 7 years required experience. She's close, but I'm not sure exactly how close. She has started doing some guardian ad litem work on her off duty time, and writes decisions during Saturday overtime in order to get the requisite experience. So there are ways to do it if you are a GS.
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Post by aljudgmental on Nov 4, 2015 17:06:40 GMT -5
Interestingly enough, OPM recently posted something about this topic on its website:
ALJ Licensure Requirement Reminder — Applicants who are participating in the ALJ examination (currently or in the future) must ensure that they satisfy the ALJ licensure requirements as described in the “QUALIFICATIONS REQUIRED” section of the ALJ Job Opportunity Announcement, ALJ2013-847661. Failure to meet and maintain the licensure requirements will be the basis for deeming a candidate ineligible at any stage of the examination process or while on the ALJ Register. (Posted 10/21/15)
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Post by 71stretch on Nov 4, 2015 18:30:03 GMT -5
Interestingly enough, OPM recently posted something about this topic on its website: ALJ Licensure Requirement Reminder — Applicants who are participating in the ALJ examination (currently or in the future) must ensure that they satisfy the ALJ licensure requirements as described in the “QUALIFICATIONS REQUIRED” section of the ALJ Job Opportunity Announcement, ALJ2013-847661. Failure to meet and maintain the licensure requirements will be the basis for deeming a candidate ineligible at any stage of the examination process or while on the ALJ Register. (Posted 10/21/15) Licensure is a whole separate part of the qualification. One must meet the licensure requirements when you apply, and then maintain contInuous ACTIVE bar membership throughout the application process and during the entire time you are on the register. |
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Post by mercury on Nov 5, 2015 0:41:58 GMT -5
I don't see why group supervisor experience wouldn't count. They're supervising the preparation of "opinions."
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Post by mamaru on Nov 5, 2015 8:44:49 GMT -5
I don't see why group supervisor experience wouldn't count. They're supervising the preparation of "opinions." I think it's more a question of how much time they spend doing that if it is a close case for qualifying experience and again for the self-rating that is part of the on-line component. |
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Post by phoenixrakkasan on Nov 5, 2015 9:32:48 GMT -5
Even if the experience qualifies, is it reasonable to expect to be selected with only seven years of experience? It seems to me that the applicants who have been selected have extensive experience and te ALJ position is the last job they would have. IMO, go out and seek out positions that give you the edge during this very competitive process.
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Post by redryder on Nov 5, 2015 9:34:03 GMT -5
I agree with Mamaru. Simply assigning the work is not supervising the preparation of opinions. However, if you are actively involved in the skills development of a new writer--assigning the work, reviewing and critiquing the draft and then reviewing the final draft, you are certainly more involved in the preparation of opinions. In my office, I worked with the new writers and can tell you that for 4-6 months, I spent 50% of my day working with them. Another opportunity I was given was the opportunity to do all of the dismissals for the judges in my group, and I didn't just fill in the blanks in the DGS but actually offered some rationale in support of those conclusions. I also did the contact for unrepresented claimants who came into the hearing office for their hearings. The contact included explaining what was in the case file, who would be in the hearing and how a hearing was conducted, and going over the right to representation and the waivers. If I learned anything new in the contact about the claimant's condition, I passed that along to the judge prior to the hearing. So there are ways to keep doing legal work even when one is in the position of GS. It is a matter of taking care of your primary job--getting the cases ready for hearing/scheduled/written. And then creating opportunities for yourself to do other duties as assigned.
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