|
Post by numbersix on Nov 25, 2015 10:47:26 GMT -5
That's certainly the logical answer, so it should happen that way. They could still start the process somewhat before those NORs-- application period is longer than it used to be, so there would be time to get the NOR and then decide which path to take. I think they would still need a refresh even after adding those who get on the register from the current testing, if the hiring frenzy they want comes to pass. Coming from the perspective of a "sub-group" member who was tested during the October-December window, I just don't understand how pouring approximately 800 of us onto the register and then onto certs wouldn't be sufficient, and a refresh wouldn't even be necessary, regardless of the increased hiring goals. There is currently a large number of people already on the registry. What might I be missing? Maybe SSA just won't reach too far down on the cert if the the applicant isn't an insider?
|
|
|
Post by Gaidin on Nov 25, 2015 11:01:06 GMT -5
Coming from the perspective of a "sub-group" member who was tested during the October-December window, I just don't understand how pouring approximately 800 of us onto the register and then onto certs wouldn't be sufficient, and a refresh wouldn't even be necessary, regardless of the increased hiring goals. There is currently a large number of people already on the registry. What might I be missing? Maybe SSA just won't reach too far down on the cert if the the applicant isn't an insider? You're missing the time this process takes. If we assume that the open date for applying to a refresh ends March 15, 2016. Those people who make it through the process with an NOR score won't get that score until March 2017. The expectation is that ODAR will pick up 300 or so judges before that happens. There is also some speculation that OMHA might have the money to increase its number of offices dramatically and hire another 100 - 150 judges.* Then you have to figure in attrition of the register. I figure every week at least one or two candidates stop being viable. They get a better job, retire from practice, get married, divorced, have kids, have some other life altering event or they pass away themselves. The majority of us on the register or about to get NOR scores have been on the treadmill 2 1/2 years and in reality some people got off and it wasn't because they got the ALJ gig. Bottom line adding another 800 or so people in 2017 won't upset the apple cart. * OMHA wanted to increase their size in 2014 and didn't have the budget to do that. Whether they still want to do that and still have the budget to do it is another story entirely.
|
|
|
Post by numbersix on Nov 25, 2015 12:12:56 GMT -5
Coming from the perspective of a "sub-group" member who was tested during the October-December window, I just don't understand how pouring approximately 800 of us onto the register and then onto certs wouldn't be sufficient, and a refresh wouldn't even be necessary, regardless of the increased hiring goals. There is currently a large number of people already on the registry. What might I be missing? Maybe SSA just won't reach too far down on the cert if the the applicant isn't an insider? You're missing the time this process takes. If we assume that the open date for applying to a refresh ends March 15, 2016. Those people who make it through the process with an NOR score won't get that score until March 2017. The expectation is that ODAR will pick up 300 or so judges before that happens. There is also some speculation that OMHA might have the money to increase its number of offices dramatically and hire another 100 - 150 judges.* Then you have to figure in attrition of the register. I figure every week at least one or two candidates stop being viable. They get a better job, retire from practice, get married, divorced, have kids, have some other life altering event or they pass away themselves. The majority of us on the register or about to get NOR scores have been on the treadmill 2 1/2 years and in reality some people got off and it wasn't because they got the ALJ gig. Bottom line adding another 800 or so people in 2017 won't upset the apple cart. * OMHA wanted to increase their size in 2014 and didn't have the budget to do that. Whether they still want to do that and still have the budget to do it is another story entirely. Thanks, Gaidin! That makes sense.
|
|
|
Post by redryder on Nov 25, 2015 13:43:30 GMT -5
There are so many factors that go into hiring beyond the interview and the NOR. Once someone is brought one, the agency is taking the gamble the person will be a productive judge because removing one is not an easy proposition. I have no inside knowledge, but from what I have seen for the most recent info posted on the polls here, it does not look like ODAR is going deep into the certs to reach people with low scores. There is only one that posted below 60 and that appears to be an anomaly.
Before the last test was devised by OPM, ODAR did go deep into the ranks of candidates with scores in the 50's. Since that time, they have changed some of the focus on production. Yes there is the 500 dispositions per year goal/quota. But there are other measures being used that were never applied in the past such as remand rates and processing times. If I was running this outfit, I would have a bean-counter looking at who has the highest remand rates, longest processing times and lowest overall productivity. Then look at common factors for this group. When where they hired? What was their background prior to being an ALJ? What was the NOR? This analysis would result in a profile of the person least likely to be successful in this job. Would that be true of everyone who fit the profile? No. But would it be a consideration? Yes. Unless something came out in that interview or from the references that just bowled me over, I would probably pass on that person. I don't think the hiring is simply a matter of someone likes you or not.
|
|
|
Post by Gaidin on Nov 25, 2015 14:00:15 GMT -5
There are so many factors that go into hiring beyond the interview and the NOR. Once someone is brought one, the agency is taking the gamble the person will be a productive judge because removing one is not an easy proposition. I have no inside knowledge, but from what I have seen for the most recent info posted on the polls here, it does not look like ODAR is going deep into the certs to reach people with low scores. There is only one that posted below 60 and that appears to be an anomaly. Before the last test was devised by OPM, ODAR did go deep into the ranks of candidates with scores in the 50's. Since that time, they have changed some of the focus on production. Yes there is the 500 dispositions per year goal/quota. But there are other measures being used that were never applied in the past such as remand rates and processing times. If I was running this outfit, I would have a bean-counter looking at who has the highest remand rates, longest processing times and lowest overall productivity. Then look at common factors for this group. When where they hired? What was their background prior to being an ALJ? What was the NOR? This analysis would result in a profile of the person least likely to be successful in this job. Would that be true of everyone who fit the profile? No. But would it be a consideration? Yes. Unless something came out in that interview or from the references that just bowled me over, I would probably pass on that person. I don't think the hiring is simply a matter of someone likes you or not. If they aren't doing it this way they are making a mistake. They have a large enough population of judges that they could mine the data and see what works and what doesn't. Maybe I fall within the do not hire profile. If so that is bad for me but it is what it is.
|
|
|
Post by mamaru on Nov 26, 2015 7:45:56 GMT -5
Not to refuel the insider/outsider controversy, but there were insiders and outsiders with really low scores in the last training class. It seems pretty clear at this point that there are a lot of people with good NOR's and wide GAL's that SSA is not going to hire unless someone higher up in the Agency direct TPTB to go back "up" the list so the number of people may be deceptive. Obviously there are some folks on the certs with narrow GAL's that haven't been reached but at this point that's not a very large group. I think those people and the folks with new GAL's are the prime candidates for the next class. For those of you with newly minted NOR's it's important to remember that all that score does is let you get to the next step. Your interview, references, and preliminary background check are crucial and you need to proceed accordingly. If your score is 80 don't assume you're in, if it's 65 don't assume you're out.
|
|
|
Post by ba on Nov 26, 2015 8:02:29 GMT -5
Obviously there are some folks on the certs with narrow GAL's that haven't been reached but at this point that's not a very large group. If you meant to say "on the registry," I am not sure how you would ever know that this was a small group. Either there has been a cert for a city that picks them up or there hasn't. And mattering on the small GALs (such as regular transfer locations) odds may be good they haven't.
|
|
|
Post by lizdarcy on Nov 27, 2015 6:34:59 GMT -5
Not to refuel the insider/outsider controversy, but there were insiders and outsiders with really low scores in the last training class. It seems pretty clear at this point that there are a lot of people with good NOR's and wide GAL's that SSA is not going to hire unless someone higher up in the Agency direct TPTB to go back "up" the list so the number of people may be deceptive. Obviously there are some folks on the certs with narrow GAL's that haven't been reached but at this point that's not a very large group. I think those people and the folks with new GAL's are the prime candidates for the next class. For those of you with newly minted NOR's it's important to remember that all that score does is let you get to the next step. Your interview, references, and preliminary background check are crucial and you need to proceed accordingly. If your score is 80 don't assume you're in, if it's 65 don't assume you're out. I am sorry to say that I must agree with the Divine Miss M. It's hard to understand why some of the people who interviewed in 2013 have not yet been picked up. I don't think the GAL is enough of a reason. Those who have just gotten their NORs should not yet be deciding which office they're going to work in. The NOR is your ticket to the dance. The agency interview is crucial, your references are crucial. A "don't recommend" on the SSA interview or a bad reference will most likely mean you are not hired.
|
|
|
Post by mamaru on Nov 27, 2015 6:42:26 GMT -5
I am just speculating. Like everyone else. My post was based on my impressions from the polls and the posts and private chats with board members and coworkers who have been hired.
When I posted, I was thinking of people with limited GAL's who have been interviewed and not hired because the certs go "deep" not because SSA doesn't want them or because after pulling the cert they didn't hire for the city. ba is correct that the same would apply to individuals on the register who have not been on a cert due to limited GAL. But with the last round there are fewer of those cities, which is why I think the number of people in that subgroup is dwindling.
|
|
|
Post by lizdarcy on Nov 27, 2015 7:09:41 GMT -5
Yup, all we can do is speculate. I think what you and ba are saying is true for some, what I am saying is also true for some. I had a subjective impression of what we heard from Judge Bice and Judge Allen in July. I thought their message was that they were going to open up the register one way or another to get a look at new people.
|
|
|
Post by mamaru on Nov 27, 2015 9:43:10 GMT -5
That's in part what I was reacting to when I referred to people on the certs, rather than the register. To SSA people on the register who have not made a cert are "new" to SSA. My impression is that SSA has tried to reach people it wants by hiring in spots normally filled by transfers and hiring into non conforming offices. There are probably still some people it wants that it cannot reach, and I would expect it will try hard to get them next time.
|
|
|
Post by anotherfed on Nov 27, 2015 18:58:04 GMT -5
There are so many factors that go into hiring beyond the interview and the NOR. Once someone is brought one, the agency is taking the gamble the person will be a productive judge because removing one is not an easy proposition. I have no inside knowledge, but from what I have seen for the most recent info posted on the polls here, it does not look like ODAR is going deep into the certs to reach people with low scores. There is only one that posted below 60 and that appears to be an anomaly. Before the last test was devised by OPM, ODAR did go deep into the ranks of candidates with scores in the 50's. Since that time, they have changed some of the focus on production. Yes there is the 500 dispositions per year goal/quota. But there are other measures being used that were never applied in the past such as remand rates and processing times. If I was running this outfit, I would have a bean-counter looking at who has the highest remand rates, longest processing times and lowest overall productivity. Then look at common factors for this group. When where they hired? What was their background prior to being an ALJ? What was the NOR? This analysis would result in a profile of the person least likely to be successful in this job. Would that be true of everyone who fit the profile? No. But would it be a consideration? Yes. Unless something came out in that interview or from the references that just bowled me over, I would probably pass on that person. I don't think the hiring is simply a matter of someone likes you or not. If they aren't doing it this way they are making a mistake. They have a large enough population of judges that they could mine the data and see what works and what doesn't. Maybe I fall within the do not hire profile. If so that is bad for me but it is what it is. A spreadsheet! A spreadsheet! They need a spreadsheet!!!! EDIT: for the record, I do not believe you are in the "do not hire" profile. On this Board and elsewhere, you display the kind of analytical thinking ideally suited for this position. I don't know why you are in the "not right now" pile, but your day will come. Maybe they are saving zombie-infested Albuquerque for you -- I've heard it's a miserable place. But I'm sure you would step forward to take on that onerous task....
|
|
|
Post by 71stretch on Nov 29, 2015 17:33:33 GMT -5
Do we need to have 9 references ready for the initial application? If so, names, phone number and email address? If you are referring to an initial application during a refresh, no. The nine references come into play when you are placed on a cert after making the register.
|
|
|
Post by Ready-Now! on Nov 29, 2015 23:43:27 GMT -5
I am a litigator/prosecutor and have many adversarial type references I can make use of to fill the 3. However, I was wondering how that category is filled when one's experience doesn't necessarily have adversaries/opposition in their practice? Is it dealt with like the request for a published article; if you don't have it you don't list it? Any thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by gary on Nov 30, 2015 0:00:20 GMT -5
I am a litigator/prosecutor and have many adversarial type references I can make use of to fill the 3. However, I was wondering how that category is filled when one's experience doesn't necessarily have adversaries/opposition in their practice? Is it dealt with like the request for a published article; if you don't have it you don't list it? Any thoughts? In that category if you don't have any adversaries to list, you can substitute other lawyers.
|
|
|
Post by lizdarcy on Nov 30, 2015 5:36:21 GMT -5
I worked for 25 years as a neutral adjudicator. I've never worked as an advocate. I picked attorneys I had worked with, who knew me well for a long time. Most of them were advocates, a few of them were judges. Most of them were folks I had also worked with in professional organizations like the NYS Bar Association.
|
|
|
Post by Ready-Now! on Nov 30, 2015 8:15:33 GMT -5
Thanks for the responses. Choosing wisely is a must. While all is amicable, usually, in the courtroom; I just cant be absolutely sure what might be going on in a reference's mind when the OPM AGENT comes a knocking.
|
|
|
Post by Ready-Now! on Nov 30, 2015 8:17:55 GMT -5
I should add: if I am lucky enough to make it to the level where the OPM AGENT comes a knocking!
|
|
|
Post by mamaru on Nov 30, 2015 15:01:07 GMT -5
Ready, the SSA reference check you undergo after submitted the paperwork following the cert email is subcontracted to an outside agency. You will not be contacted and some (probably not all) of your references will be contacted by phone. Nobody comes to interview you until after you are hired. (Other agencies do it differently.)
|
|
|
Post by Ready-Now! on Nov 30, 2015 15:59:59 GMT -5
Ready, the SSA reference check you undergo after submitted the paperwork following the cert email is subcontracted to an outside agency. You will not be contacted and some (probably not all) of your references will be contacted by phone. Nobody comes to interview you until after you are hired. (Other agencies do it differently.) Yeah, I had read that on the board. However, I really wanted to use the phrase, "comes a knocking."
|
|