plusses/minuses of Senior Attorney and ALJ positions

[phoenixrakkasan]

Jan 3, 2016 16:46:48 GMT -5 lizdarcy said:

Jan 3, 2016 16:34:04 GMT -5 phoenixrakkasan said:

FMLA. Do not worry about these issues. What is the option? Not to take care of the child?

I am wondering if you personally have taken FMLA leave for a day to take care of a child with a stomach virus.  

More importantly, I have approved such requests.   

[aljwishhope]

Thanks ( i think)Tiger on the additional info which indicates more flexibility than I thought. I am weird i actually like to some extent reasonable numerical goals. It is freeing in that if you meet them you know you have done what is expected. And at least in my current job if you are meeting your numbers you are left alone to get it done.

[mercury]

I can start a new thread if it's desired, but can anyone comment on the job of group supervisor? It seems that there are few senior attorney positions in the field offices, so if one wants to get to 13 in a field office, it would be the only path.

[christina]

mercury, i am fine if you keep it here. im OP on this thread. GS job can be a challenge. let's see if those who have done the GS job pipe in before i make comments. i never was a GS. also, make sure you have your 7 years of attorney experience in based on ALJ job application description of what counts as attorney work. there were prior threads on whether GS jobs would count toward the 7 years and general consensus was it might not.

[aljpdq]

This has been a really interesting thread and if anyone else has another perspective on the rewards and challenges of being an ALJ they are willing to share It would be great to hear.

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2016 16:58:26 GMT -5 luvgov said:

I agree, if this happens on a rare occasion, it will not be a problem. However, you should have someone available who can step in during family emergencies on days that you have hearings scheduled. You have to remember, claimants have been waiting years for their hearing and much work has been completed to get the hearings scheduled.

When I was in management at a hearing office, we would have ALJ's call out for various reasons. Often, another ALJ would step up and hold the hearings. Some judges were more generous with their time than others, as you'd expect in any work setting. Other times, the hearings would have to be rescheduled if no ALJ's were willing or available (telework is a factor here as well...if we had a roster of nine judges, a few of them might be home on any given day).

It happens. It stinks for the claimant, but it happens.

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2016 19:59:40 GMT -5 christina said:

mercury, i am fine if you keep it here. im OP on this thread. GS job can be a challenge. let's see if those who have done the GS job pipe in before i make comments. i never was a GS. also, make sure you have your 7 years of attorney experience in based on ALJ job application description of what counts as attorney work. there were prior threads on whether GS jobs would count toward the 7 years and general consensus was it might not.

Did it for a few months as a detail and found myself gleefully counting down the days as the detail expired. I fully admit that I'm not a great fit for the job. There were definitely some good days mixed in, but GS is a pretty good representation of the pitfalls of middle management. You're asked to put pressure on employees to do their job, but have very little power to actually demand results. Employees are quick to file union grievances out of spite. You're caught between dealing with the whims and needs of both ALJ's and staff employees. And I came from what is regarded as a good office with a strong HOD and HOCALJ.

The real question -- is GS better than being a GS-12 decision writer? Not for me, despite the monotony of decision writing. I was willing to bump back down to GS-12 in order to get the three days a week at home, significantly less stress, and overall flexibility cited elsewhere in the ALJ v. SAA argument. The difference between my GS salary and attorney-advisor salary only would've been about $6000 before taxes (slightly more in subsequent years considering the slowdown of step increases after Step 4). Not close to being worth it, IMO.

It's a shame that the SAA program is essentially dead. ODAR is going to keep losing talent to other components and agencies because of it. I was lucky enough to live within driving distance of HQ and got a GS-13, but there are a lot of really smart people languishing at GS-12 who have nowhere to go in ODAR because SAA jobs don't exist and GS jobs are rare and/or undesirable.

[tripper]

I, too, am very happy to see this thread. I am also an SAA awaiting testing results. I am at the point now where I'd actually be relieved to not make it to the next step. The SAA job has so much flexibility for QOL issues (at least in my office) and the only thing I don't like is the mind-numbing boredom of decision-writing (oh, and some of the ALJ instructions). Does the increase in pay make up for the loss of flexibility and the fact that we have to (likely) move away from our homes for two years? I'm not convinced.

[aljwantabe]

Jan 3, 2016 19:51:46 GMT -5 mercury said:

I can start a new thread if it's desired, but can anyone comment on the job of group supervisor? It seems that there are few senior attorney positions in the field offices, so if one wants to get to 13 in a field office, it would be the only path.

Mercury, when you say field office, I'm assuming you actually mean hearing office? As a GS, I can tell you the SAA job is way better, same $$ and a lot less responsibility. The SAA job is probably the best job in the agency . GS is a tough job. I think the worse is that you give up a lot of flexibility when you take the position. As a writer, and as a SAA if you want/need to take off at the last minute, that is not a problem, for a manager it could be. There of course are good aspects to the GS job, one is the job could never be described as mundane or boring! However, if you want to compare the two, the SAA position would win hands down

No one has mentioned the QR job. That would probably be my next choice, if this ALJ thing doesn't work out .

[Deleted]

Jan 4, 2016 12:26:57 GMT -5 tripper said:

Does the increase in pay make up for the loss of flexibility and the fact that we have to (likely) move away from our homes for two years? I'm not convinced.

I'm not convinced either, especially now that I'm a 13. When I was still a 12 and there was only a three month requirement before an ALJ transfer, I would've taken an ALJ job anywhere in the country. Now that I'm a shade below $100,000/year in a job I really love, I'm not shipping off to Mt. Pleasant* or Paducah* for another $25,000. My theoretical GAL may remain large upon the refresh, but my realistic GAL is going to be limited to about 10 or 11 hearing offices.

(* - They may in fact be lovely places, but I have young kids and my wife would stab me if I went away for 15+ months.)

[Propmaster]

I have been an SAA (Senior Attorney Advisor) and an SAA (Supervisory Attorney Advisor - or Lawyer GS) (Which I shall henceforth call SA and GS for clarity, despite GS being the same letters as GS).

Management as a GS was the worst, soul-sucking experience of my professional career, despite having been a manager in a non-profit legal aid prior to coming to SSA. I was an excellent leader of workers, a very good supervisor of workers, but a horrible manager of workers. Primarily, this is because micromanagement from higher up decided (decides?) the techniques by which you will accomplish certain goals, whether or not those techniques are appropriate for the individuals you supervise, whether or not those techniques are legal/allowed under the CBA, and whether or not the goals will be furthered by even successful application of the techniques. As someone already pointed out (with a lesser level of melodrama), you are powerless, no one has your back (unless they are sizing up the knife hole they can make), and if you follow your instructions exactly, everyone in the world will hate you.

That said, I sometimes miss it. The positives of GS in my view are the ability to get an idea for the entire workflow of the office, the ability to identify stovepipes and other areas that need training/correction/assistance, and the ability to ensure quality that you merely have to shake your head at impotently when not in a position of supervision or management.

As an SA, I used to get to screen cases, develop cases, and basically help move things along. TPTB clearly want only writers right now, and are not interested in any other aspects of SA-ship. Nonetheless, it is good pay for a mindless (according to their ideal approach, not my unfortunately-more-involved performance) task, with flexibility galore. There might be more tasks in the future.

"They" keep saying the pendulum must swing back toward quality at some point.

No one has mentioned the frustration of watching the illegal/arbitrary actions of other staff affecting your work, but it is pretty easy to turn off one's smell-tester and type type type.

So, basically, both are OK jobs, but if you become a GS (and I have told this directly to several friends who went from AA to GS), I will stop trusting you. Not that there is any reason you should care about that, btw.

[travis]

Given our backlog, the pendulum may eventually swing back and allow senior attorneys to put their talents to screening and drafting fully favorable decisions. Having worked as a senior attorney before becoming an ALJ I can say the SA gig is a sweet one. I found it to be pretty low stress and enjoyed the flexible hours when my kids were young. It was also great to be able to take off at a moment's notice. As for the ALJ position, I enjoy this job as well. I will say this, to do it correctly involves a lot of work. The production demands are high and given the length of time it takes for people to get hearings and the size of the backlog, ALJs should be expected to produce. This is not a position at which to "retire." If you aren't willing to work hard, do us all a favor and don't take a position. If you intend to be a pompous @$$ take a pass on this job as well. Collegiality is important. There was some discussion whether one could take leave to care for an ailing kid on a day of scheduled hearings. We all eventually have to miss hearings. If you work in a good office, other ALJs will step in for you and hold the hearings. I make it a point to do so when possible and others have done so for me (collegiality). However, it is a serious pain to step in for another ALJ on short notice and to add a day's worth of hearings, so I strongly encourage that you avoid making a habit of this.

[JudgeRatty]

Jan 4, 2016 18:14:18 GMT -5 travis said:

Given our backlog, the pendulum may eventually swing back and allow senior attorneys to put their talents to screening and drafting fully favorable decisions. Having worked as a senior attorney before becoming an ALJ I can say the SA gig is a sweet one. I found it to be pretty low stress and enjoyed the flexible hours when my kids were young. It was also great to be able to take off at a moment's notice. As for the ALJ position, I enjoy this job as well. I will say this, to do it correctly involves a lot of work. The production demands are high and given the length of time it takes for people to get hearings and the size of the backlog, ALJs should be expected to produce. This is not a position at which to "retire." If you aren't willing to work hard, do us all a favor and don't take a position. If you intend to be a pompous @$$ take a pass on this job as well. Collegiality is important. There was some discussion whether one could take leave to care for an ailing kid on a day of scheduled hearings. We all eventually have to miss hearings. If you work in a good office, other ALJs will step in for you and hold the hearings. I make it a point to do so when possible and others have done so for me (collegiality). However, it is a serious pain to step in for another ALJ on short notice and to add a day's worth of hearings, so I strongly encourage that you avoid making a habit of this.

Amen on all counts. I loved the SAA position and gave serious thought to the flexibility of leaving anytime I needed or just wanted to do so. As an ALJ you do have to be prepared to plan your life way in advance to accommodate a hearing schedule. Otherwise I am very happy I made the leap.

It is a heavy burden making decisions that affect the lives of people so you have to be diligent and detailed in the decision making. It is a LOT of work but doable if you are organized and efficient in reviewing cases and writing adequate instructions. Make no mistake, it is a tight schedule but as a public servant what do you expect? It is not a glamorous job. It is a intricate detailed busy job that affects lives and the final decision is all on you. If you want that kind of responsibility... Go for it!

[hopefalj]

Although I wasn't a SAA, I'll give the overall pros/cons from my perspective as your run of the mill AA.

1) Flexibility: advantage SAA. The one thing I do miss is that ability to essentially cut and run whenever I wanted as an AA. Weather's nice and I want to go hiking? Leave slip and I'm out. As an ALJ, you're somewhat stuck with your schedule and definitely so on hearing days. The other days are dependent on when you prep/review/edit/sign cases and how many hearings you are comfortable doing per day/week.

2) Workload: advantage SAA. As a writer, I had a good efficiency rating, but I was only pumping out 325-350 or so decisions per FY. Obviously I'm now expected to hit the magical 500. Now while writing is certainly more intensive time-wise from a review, I'm finding myself continuing to do a substantial amount of writing to make drafts legally sufficient. I believe maquereau has brought this up on several occasions, and I've found that writing can be hit or miss. When it hits, it's great, and little time is needed to modify the decisions, thus making my job easier. When it misses, I basically get to write the decision myself. I'm a big proponent of only hearing the case once, so I do my best to make sure it doesn't come back, which is what I did as a writer. It can be extremely daunting. And depending on your office and support staff, you may also get to work up your own cases as an ALJ, while you don't need to worry about case workup as a SAA.

3) Frustration level: draw. This is probably a function of your hearing office as management and staff can go a long way to alleviating or exacerbating your stress level in either position. As a writer, I grew tired of having to justify horrific decisions or making untenable arguments to avoid remand for simply fixed procedural issues. I drafted decisions for judges that ignored listing-level evidence, didn't know what SGA was, put claimant's at PRW that was worked for a week in duration for about $150, and actually ignored the grid rules. It was a beating. Now I get to be that person that makes a writer's job a beating. However, as noted above, my new source of frustration is doing others' jobs by working up my own cases or drafting legally sufficient decisions. Ultimately the decision falls on me, so if things need to be exhibited or drafted to make is sustainable, the buck stops with me, and I take that responsibility seriously.

4) Interest: ALJ, IMO. I find it far more interesting to review the files and make the decision than to review the file and justify someone else's decision. There were times as a writer that I enjoyed writing the decisions for sure, but this is a better gig in my opinion in terms of quality of work.

5) Money: ALJ, obviously. While I realize that the base pay difference between a 13/10 and an ALJ-3A is only about $11k, that's somewhat short-sighted as you get step increases after each of your first three years. That means after only three years, you're looking at a $36k raise over your capped amount as a 13/10, and you peak at over $50k by the time you've hit 7 years. That's not insignificant, at least not to me.

I guess a shorter response to your question is this... I enjoy the job, I'm glad I've taken it, and I think it's the best job there is in the agency.

[christina]

wow, this has been some great stuff! thanks everyone.

i plan to make some posts that deal with other questions that came up(eg teh GS job) with but am swamped with family stuff at the moment so it may be a few days before i can jot some things down on here. and thanks again for the input. that has helped me and im sure many others.

Good evening to all

[redsox1]

Hopeful's post is right on the money. I was an SA, when the job was really a DW job, and could not have put it any better. I would only point out that in my experience there is a tad more flexibility than some of the OP's suggest. I have swapped hearing days to make an extra long weekend for a family trip that my wife really wanted to take. Can't do it all the time but available on a pinch. Also, credit time and the flexibility to go to the office, soon to be work at home, can really help if you have to leave early on Friday and have Monday hearings. The difference being as an SA you could chill over the weekend if you wee so inclined. Clearly, give the nod to SA for flexility but there are some work arounds if you need the time.

[wingnut]

I have appreciated the frank discussion. My current job has amazing flexibility, good pay and I have racked up enough seniority to have a large amount of vacation time. I get floating holidays and a large number of regular holidays. I have a pension. My main concerns about the change would be losing those good things. On the flip side, the people that know me best suggest that I need a change - I'm bored out of my mind. I miss my time as a hearing officer (which I no longer get to do.) When we started I would have taken the job in a heartbeat. The trade off has become less clear as I've accrued more benefits the longer I'm where I'm at. It sounds like the SSA and AA jobs were a bit like what I am doing now so it really helps to hear how people feel about the pros/cons. Thank you very much!

[mercury]

Thanks to everyone for the responses. I did indeed mean hearing office, not field, for questions about the GS job--sorry, had just finished a DA&A case!

I would particularly be interested in more on management techniques and what a GS does day to day.

[Deleted]

Tiger's two point post from 01/03/16 is dead-on accurate from my perspective.

I would certainly agree that as I am also post-20 years private practice, the position of an ALJ is in direct comparison to same, extremely low stress. (Cf., ALJ behind in ALPO, gets an innocuous and oft-ignored email saying "hey, uh, like uh, hey, it looks like, uh you are uh, behind in ALPO, just saying you know..." compared to private practitioner facing mandatory fedct deadline of which failure to comply can result in very real fedct sanctions, fines, bar complaints/sanctions and malpractice suits from clients.)
Scheduling 6 months out? In reality this task (at least in my case from two different offices) amounts to no more than the scheduler poking her head in my office and asking "Hey Judge, when are you going to be gone for vacations in the next 6 months?" I reply to the effect "oh probably take a week off First week of February and then I think another week last of May." Scheduler: "Got it, thanks!"
That is basically "the scheduling task". I then see my calendar receive docket schedules appear on my computer usually in 3-month-in-advance chunks. In both offices I have attended, other than a generic query from the scheduler when you first start working at an office (e.g., do you want hearings every week, every other day, every other week, kids and unrepped at first of day, etc) I do not schedule my hearings, never have in either office. The hearings are scheduled by the scheduler, I simply show up, coffee in hand, robe dragging, when and where directed. My sole physical task requirement consists of inserting my ID card to start up the computer and clicking on the video remote (but many times I don't even get to do this arduous task as my clerk does same for me.)
All non-hearing days are in turn at my sole discretion to schedule as in office, Telework, credit days, etc. I usually schedule these on my own personal calendar so family can see when I will be at home.
The scheduling process from my direct experience is quite frankly from my experience, easy-peasy.
And also in agreement with Tiger, I will also do well over 500 dispositions this year. Doing +500 per year is really is not that difficult at all. I, as with Tiger, finished my partial year last year with well over 300 dispositions, but alas, I did have one (1) AC remand. Not on the merits, but on a "failure to show" dismissal; i.e., SSA had the wrong address.
Dealing with local management as an issue? That is and has been a non-issue from my experience as well. Basic rule of thumb there is, you are a grown person, you have been well trained as a professional, you know what you have to do. Now do it. I have found no problems with local management.

[pumpkin]

Thank you, @tigerlaw and @nqcebxxte for this reality check.  I am not currently in a job where I can take leave on a whim or work from home the majority of the time.  My schedule is often dictated by jurists who believe that 4:30 pm on the Friday afternoon of a holiday weekend is a fine time to begin a hearing on a suppression motion.  (Which leads to me wonder if I should start a separate thread of "if I ever became a judge, I would never...." based on true life courtroom drama.  But I digress.)

I just wanted to thank you for the reassurance that, while quite busy and with an expectation that you should be at work and do your job, the ALJ position is not so oppressively burdensome that you're left with regret and feeling that you should have applied for a SAA or AA job instead.