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Post by anotherfed on Feb 4, 2016 11:51:44 GMT -5
I don't see how they can change it without creating a new Register. That may be something in the works for a future register, but I don't see how they can change the rules midstream for this one. The class action suit following such a stunt would make the Adzell litigation look like a friendly difference of opinion.
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Post by bartleby on Feb 4, 2016 11:58:06 GMT -5
IIRC, there was a dust off about a similar situation before, right after Azdell (at that time, the Judges filed a suit claiming AA's weren't qualified. When I questioned several, it seems they did not want the good writers to leave). It would be the dumbest thing OPM could do. Most ALJ's go to ODAR. Some may not think it is rocket science, but, the years spent as an AA for ODAR are invaluable when it comes to being an ALJ Judge. If nothing else, AA's know how to write good instructions and understand the process and pressure along with most of the Reg's. An outsider will take a while (think long time) to really catch up. Flame suit on, blaze away, but DO NOT scorch the kitties...
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Post by tripper on Feb 4, 2016 12:55:48 GMT -5
That would be devastating to morale .. at that point I think I would just ask to be converted to a paralegal so I don't have to pay bar dues and complete CLEs Agreed. It would be a big blow to an already demoralized writing staff. I do not know a single AA who likes her job.
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Post by mercury on Feb 4, 2016 13:09:49 GMT -5
As an AA, I'd start looking for other agencies. I'm sure plenty of AAs do that anyway, but if ALJ isn't the light at the end of the tunnel, what is? HOD?
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Post by Gaidin on Feb 4, 2016 13:10:58 GMT -5
I don't see how they can change the JOA in the middle of the register. The last notification we got was that the register was extended into 2018.
I also question whether ODAR would allow it. They apparently wish the register had more people on it. Cutting out a huge chunk of applicants at the gate seems unlikely to get the numbers they appear to want.
Maybe for the next register but I don't expect that to be anytime soon.
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Post by tripper on Feb 4, 2016 13:21:01 GMT -5
As an AA, I'd start looking for other agencies. I'm sure plenty of AAs do that anyway, but if ALJ isn't the light at the end of the tunnel, what is? HOD? And the only way to get a HOD position (it seems) is through GS which most AAs avoid like the plague. I'm hoping with some of the CARES initiatives (like pre-hearing triage, etc), that possibly SAA positions might open up again (or at the very least, let the existing SAAs do something other than decision writing, it must really steam AAs to know that the SAA sitting next to you gets paid quite a bit more to do the exact same job).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 13:26:35 GMT -5
Recently hearing rumors from ALJs and AAs in other offices that OPM is going to change the ALJ announcement, specifically with regard to qualifying legal experience. These folks are saying that ODAR AA experience will no longer count towards the seven year minimum requirement. Anyone else heard anything like or about this and, more importantly, know where this is coming from? I assumed reading this original thread that the poster is saying the new announcement for April 1(ish) will have a different requirement. I don't think this has anything to do with the current registry people are waiting on.
Selfishly, I like that change cause I have the requisite experience before becoming a DW, so a lot less competition. And more objectively, honestly being a DW is nothing like having a court room centric law experience. But I think you would ideally have both, DW experience and court room experience.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 13:27:48 GMT -5
As an AA, I'd start looking for other agencies. I'm sure plenty of AAs do that anyway, but if ALJ isn't the light at the end of the tunnel, what is? HOD? And the only way to get a HOD position (it seems) is through GS which most AAs avoid like the plague. Tripper, why is group supervisor avoided like the plague? It seems like the easiest GS-13 job in federal government. You do some Web TA, you assign cases, you go to meetings, you stand around and talk.... what am I missing?
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Post by Gaidin on Feb 4, 2016 13:37:37 GMT -5
Recently hearing rumors from ALJs and AAs in other offices that OPM is going to change the ALJ announcement, specifically with regard to qualifying legal experience. These folks are saying that ODAR AA experience will no longer count towards the seven year minimum requirement. Anyone else heard anything like or about this and, more importantly, know where this is coming from? I assumed reading this original thread that the poster is saying the new announcement for April 1(ish) will have a different requirement. I don't think this has anything to do with the current registry people are waiting on.
Selfishly, I like that change cause I have the requisite experience before becoming a DW, so a lot less competition. And more objectively, honestly being a DW is nothing like having a court room centric law experience. But I think you would ideally have both, DW experience and court room experience.
The announcement in April will be on this register. It is what is known as a refresh. I assure you that plenty of DW will make it through and become ALJs.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 13:40:51 GMT -5
The announcement in April will be on this register. It is what is known as a refresh. Are we 1000% sure its a refresh and not something totally new? How long does the old registry go? Do the people added in the refresh start competing with people already on the list?
A question more personally, my ten point vet paperwork may come in before the "refresh." If it does, should I go ahead and apply to be on the current registry or just apply for the April 1 (ish) refresh? or does it matter at all?
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Post by Gaidin on Feb 4, 2016 13:49:35 GMT -5
I received an email in late 2015 telling me that the register had been extended until 2018 (a point I made above). So yes I am certain that this is a refresh and not a new register. I am reasonably certain that this register will be extended until 2018 if not longer.
I really don't know what to tell you about when you should apply.
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Post by Propmaster on Feb 4, 2016 13:52:19 GMT -5
And the only way to get a HOD position (it seems) is through GS which most AAs avoid like the plague. Tripper, why is group supervisor avoided like the plague? It seems like the easiest GS-13 job in federal government. You do some Web TA, you assign cases, you go to meetings, you stand around and talk.... what am I missing? This has been discussed in other threads, also, but briefly: 1) GS has no power to do anything (depending on the office, HOD, regional, etc., of course) innovative or customized. 2) GS has to "tow the company line," even when it has the opposite effect intended by higher-ups who are not familiar with the situation at issue. This extends to being forced to sign off on memos prepared by other people (not in the chain of command) that explicitly say they are the work and opinion of the GS. 3) GS are the face of the management to the staff, so bear the brunt of complaints and do a majority of the face-to-face counseling and 'refocusing.' 4) The 'meetings' are interminable recitations of unwritten policies that may explicitly, but without accountability for the speaker, require the GS to violate known norms of labor relations/CBA terms. 5) The GS is not covered by a CBA, so despite the lack of power, has no protections against arbitrary and (arguably) unfair labor practices. Obviously, this is a dim picture that reflects my personal experience, not necessarily the experience of all GSes. The problems are akin to any middle management where pressure from above and pressure from below hit the same person at the same time and he or she is powerless to actually do anything about either source of pressure. The same applies slightly less to HODs, who have the pressure issues, but less soul-sucking face-to-face time with employees (although they are more exposed to the soul-sucking face-to-face time with higher management). Again, I hear this is similar in many environments, not just ODAR or the government. However, speaking from only my experience, It is not possible to enjoy the GS job and have a personal sense of integrity - it has to be one or the other.
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Post by tripper on Feb 4, 2016 13:55:04 GMT -5
And the only way to get a HOD position (it seems) is through GS which most AAs avoid like the plague. Tripper, why is group supervisor avoided like the plague? It seems like the easiest GS-13 job in federal government. You do some Web TA, you assign cases, you go to meetings, you stand around and talk.... what am I missing? Loss of telework, loss of flexibility in your work schedule (you either have to open the office or close it), dealing with pressures from Region, dealing with personnel issues all day, being the general office gopher, endless reports, having very little ability to really affect any changes, etc. SAA is the best GS-13 job, hands down.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 14:02:49 GMT -5
Tripper, why is group supervisor avoided like the plague? It seems like the easiest GS-13 job in federal government. You do some Web TA, you assign cases, you go to meetings, you stand around and talk.... what am I missing? Loss of telework, loss of flexibility in your work schedule (you either have to open the office or close it), dealing with pressures from Region, dealing with personnel issues all day, being the general office gopher, endless reports, having very little ability to really affect any changes, etc. SAA is the best GS-13 job, hands down. Well, with my extensive background in meditation and secular Buddhism (read that as I don't give a sh#% about what I can't control) I wouldn't mind that job while waiting to be an ALJ... seems immensely better then slaving away as a DW, but to each their own.
P.S. I heard groups Supps get telework soon...
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Post by tripper on Feb 4, 2016 14:13:48 GMT -5
Loss of telework, loss of flexibility in your work schedule (you either have to open the office or close it), dealing with pressures from Region, dealing with personnel issues all day, being the general office gopher, endless reports, having very little ability to really affect any changes, etc. SAA is the best GS-13 job, hands down. Well, with my extensive background in mediation and secular Buddhism (read that as I don't give a sh#% about what I can't control) I wouldn't mind that job while waiting to be an ALJ... seems immensely better then slaving away as a DW, but to each their own.
P.S. I heard groups Supps get telework soon...
In which case I hope you get a GS position. I've not known attorneys to enjoy the job. It's probably different for non-attorneys who came up through the field offices (and those GSs are great cause they can actually read the strange gobbledy-gook that POMS spits out).
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Post by Propmaster on Feb 4, 2016 14:28:41 GMT -5
Loss of telework, loss of flexibility in your work schedule (you either have to open the office or close it), dealing with pressures from Region, dealing with personnel issues all day, being the general office gopher, endless reports, having very little ability to really affect any changes, etc. SAA is the best GS-13 job, hands down. Well, with my extensive background in mediation and secular Buddhism (read that as I don't give a sh#% about what I can't control) I wouldn't mind that job while waiting to be an ALJ... seems immensely better then slaving away as a DW, but to each their own.
P.S. I heard groups Supps get telework soon...
Mediation? Or meditation? I may not have mentioned it earlier, but the GS job is incredibly time consuming. If you think DW is slaving away, you will be shocked by the amount of work a supervisor actually does while you think they are gabbing about their kids. There are reports due non-stop - repetitive ones, ones you just submitted the day before. You do not have the option to say "check your inbox, I just sent you it," because you cannot criticize up the chain of command (again, your experience may differ). I was never as busy as when I was a GS - there were constant, constant, constant things that needed to be done. And there is no one controlling the workload as when you are a writer. Do not expect a cakewalk. Although I agree that if you do not care about things you cannot control (which is basically the entirety of the GS job), you might find it soothing and enjoyable.
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Post by aljwishhope on Feb 4, 2016 14:35:22 GMT -5
IMHO experience as a DW should really be valued for ALJ position. You know the relevant law. You know the production demands. My agency hires judges with agency experience as well as private attorneys with significant litigation experience. The lack of courtroom experience is not an impediment to the extent the judge position requires knowledge of the technical subject matter (as gained after working for agency for extensive period usually way more than 7 years ). However there is much debate on whether my agency is acting beyond its authority in hiring judges outside the ALJ process. My point nonetheless is that subject matter and agency expertise are both valuable for candidates to have.
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Post by Propmaster on Feb 4, 2016 14:38:19 GMT -5
IMHO experience as a DW should really be valued for ALJ position. You know the relevant law. You know the production demands. My agency hires judges with agency experience as well as private attorneys with significant litigation experience. The lack of courtroom experience is not an impediment to the extent the judge position requires knowledge of the technical subject matter (as gained after working for agency for extensive period usually way more than 7 years ). However there is much debate on whether my agency is acting beyond its authority in hiring judges outside the ALJ process. My point nonetheless is that subject matter and agency expertise are both valuable for candidates to have. Agree 100%. But I'm an insider, so...
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Post by bartleby on Feb 4, 2016 14:54:36 GMT -5
While the GS position gives you GS-13, it does not give you any experience that should count for the ALJ job. There is no research, writing or discussing with a Judge. You are managing people under you. Many GS are non-attorneys. If that is the case, why should the experience count for a legal position?? JMHO
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Post by Propmaster on Feb 4, 2016 14:59:19 GMT -5
While the GS position gives you GS-13, it does not give you any experience that should count for the ALJ job. There is no research, writing or discussing with a Judge. You are managing people under you. Many GS are non-attorneys. If that is the case, why should the experience count for a legal position?? JMHO There are two GS jobs. The non-attorney one has the management stuff, the attorney one adds the ability to do, essentially, senior attorney work (if there would be time). While the position has changed since then, when I was a GS I did about 70 attorney adjudicator OTRs a year. Our attorney GSes also write decisions on overtime (which is sometimes only available for decision drafting). I don't know how well that would play in the requirements (what is it, about 8% of the job time being used for drafting), but I'm just pointing it out.
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