|
|
Post by happy on Apr 29, 2016 13:14:23 GMT -5
I've been an ALJ for a while now, so it's no skin off my teeth one way or the other. I don't get on the Board very often anymore, but I lurk now and then and my curiosity has been piqued.
It was my understanding in the past that, if you made a certificate for ANY city, you could be considered for placement in any city on your GAL, subject to the Rule of Three. Now I'm hearing that people have gotten notification from Bob that they are only being considered for "these cities" on their GAL, even though they have indicated a willingness to go to a lot of the other cities on the cert. So, I guess what I'm asking is -- how can they possibly determine whether you are "reachable" unless and until they work the cert?
For example, assume Candidate A received a list of cities from Bob Gehlken (BobList) indicating that he is being considered for Paducah, Fargo, and Evansville. He had Queens on his GAL and Queens is a city on the Certificate, but it wasn't on his BobList. Now, say Candidate A is the 30th person down on the register for Queens, but 27-29 people ahead of him on the register all receive offers to go other places, resulting in him now being in the "top 3" for Queens. Would the Agency just not fill Queens simply because the people who had Queens on their BobList went elsewhere, or would it consider Candidate A, even though Queens wasn't on his BobList?
|
|
|
|
Post by funkyodar on Apr 29, 2016 13:25:41 GMT -5
Gary! Happy needs you.
|
|
|
|
Post by Gaidin on Apr 29, 2016 13:31:21 GMT -5
On prior iterations of the register a single cert was issued for all locations being certed. So if you had a location on your GAL and you were on the cert they notified you that you were certed for all locations on your GAL. However, there may have been no possible way that they could make the hiring determinations to get to you on some of the locations you were listed for. On this register OPM issues a cert for a single location. They are using a dual certification process that gary can explain far better than me. What it boils down to though is that OPM has done the math and told ODAR how low they can reach on any set of certs based upon a mathematical analysis of the requested certs, the applicants' GALs, and probably other factors. Supposedly, if you appear on a cert they can get to you by some selection methodology. |
|
|
|
Post by numbersix on Apr 29, 2016 13:48:47 GMT -5
Has anyone been offered a position who wasn't on that city's cert?
|
|
|
|
Post by gary on Apr 29, 2016 13:58:25 GMT -5
The way the certs have worked since the creation of the current register is each city has a separate cert. If there are 81 cities on a set of certs, that means there are 81 certs in that set.
Each cert is returned by OPM to SSA with its own list of eligibles. Each list of eligibles will include every candidate who by score and GAL is reachable for the particular cert.
SSA gets to determine what order it wishes to hire in. It can start with City 1, skip to City 78, come back to City 19. Or it can hire for position 1 in City 23, hire for the only position in City 8, come back to hire position 2 in City 23, etc. Any order it chooses. And it can in its discretion not consider a candidate who has previously been considered for three positions for which someone else was hired.
Basically, you are reachable if there is some order in which SSA could hire that would result in you being one of the top three scores for a position. There may only be a very narrow path to you. You may be out of the running after the first hire. But if SSA chooses, it could hire and use the three considerations rule in such a way that it could hire you.
Because of varying GALs candidates are not all reachable for every city on a set of certs.
Let's take a fairly easy example. Let's say Queens has one vacancy and everyone on the certs has Queens, but the three top scorers have only Queens on their GALs. None of the other however many candidates would then be reachable for Queens.
Or say you are the 67th highest score and you have Queens on your GAL, but there are three with scores higher than yours who only have Queens, with the third of those being the 66th score. You are not reachable for Queens because SSA will have three candidates with higher scores than yours to choose from no matter when it hired in Queens.
There are obviously many more permutations of this, but that's basically how people get on some certs and not on others under the current system.
|
|
|
|
Post by Gaidin on Apr 29, 2016 14:00:06 GMT -5
Has anyone been offered a position who wasn't on that city's cert? That should not be possible because if your name is not on a certificate you aren't eligible for that position. Certainly no one has reported that happening. |
|
|
|
Post by gary on Apr 29, 2016 14:04:14 GMT -5
Has anyone been offered a position who wasn't on that city's cert? The cert process is how new ALJs are hired from the register. It is possible for an agency to hire an ALJ from another agency or a former ALJ who is eligible to be rehired without going through the cert process. Also, an agency's current ALJs may under defined circumstances transfer locations without going through the cert process. I think hiring a brand new ALJ for a city for which that candidate was not on the cert would be contrary to law. |
|
|
|
Post by 71stretch on Apr 29, 2016 14:11:49 GMT -5
Has anyone been offered a position who wasn't on that city's cert? No. If we are talking about hiring from the register, not from another agency, you can't ever even be in the top 3 for a cert you aren't on. |
|
|
|
Post by happy on Apr 29, 2016 14:22:21 GMT -5
Well, that does explain it. On the one hand, I think it simplifies things, particularly the extent to which the Agency might try to contort to get to a certain candidate it might want. On the other hand, my experience with OPM makes me highly suspicious of their logarithms. Thanks for the clarification.
|
|
|
|
Post by luckylady2 on Apr 29, 2016 15:44:21 GMT -5
Has anyone been offered a position who wasn't on that city's cert? That should not be possible because if your name is not on a certificate you aren't eligible for that position. Certainly no one has reported that happening. Yes - "cert" is short for Certificate of Eligibles. If you're not on it, you're not eligible to be hired for that location -- in that round of hiring. For example, the very first certs that were pulled only went down to a NOR of 74.00 -ish. Although in subsequent rounds candidates with lower NORs were hired, in the very first round, you had to have a NOR of 74 or above to be reachable in that round. |
|
|
|
Post by zebra51 on Apr 29, 2016 16:42:03 GMT -5
The way the certs have worked since the creation of the current register is each city has a separate cert. If there are 81 cities on a set of certs, that means there are 81 certs in that set. Each cert is returned by OPM to SSA with its own list of eligibles. Each list of eligibles will include every candidate who by score and GAL is reachable for the particular cert. SSA gets to determine what order it wishes to hire in. It can start with City 1, skip to City 78, come back to City 19. Or it can hire for position 1 in City 23, hire for the only position in City 8, come back to hire position 2 in City 23, etc. Any order it chooses. And it can in its discretion not consider a candidate who has previously been considered for three positions for which someone else was hired. Basically, you are reachable if there is some order in which SSA could hire that would result in you being one of the top three scores for a position. There may only be a very narrow path to you. You may be out of the running after the first hire. But if SSA chooses, it could hire and use the three considerations rule in such a way that it could hire you. Because of varying GALs candidates are not all reachable for every city on a set of certs. Let's take a fairly easy example. Let's say Queens has one vacancy and everyone on the certs has Queens, but the three top scorers have only Queens on their GALs. None of the other however many candidates would then be reachable for Queens. Or say you are the 67th highest score and you have Queens on your GAL, but there are three with scores higher than yours who only have Queens, with the third of those being the 66th score. You are not reachable for Queens because SSA will have three candidates with higher scores than yours to choose from no matter when it hired in Queens. There are obviously many more permutations of this, but that's basically how people get on some certs and not on others under the current system. The rule of three by OPM regulations applies to an individual cert. So under this new method a person should only be able to be three struck for a specific (read location) cert. Under this new method an individual should not be over all three struck for all locations. If they are they have a very very good MSPB employment practices claim. |
|
|
|
Post by gary on Apr 29, 2016 16:59:27 GMT -5
There is nothing about each city getting a separate cert that precludes operation of the three considerations rule across certs.
1. The rule of three:
"An appointing officer, with sole regard to merit and fitness, shall select an eligible for:
(a) The first vacancy from the highest three eligibles on the certificate who are available for appointment; and
(b) The second and each succeding vacancy from the highest three eligibles on the certificate who are unselected and available for appointment."
5 CFR 332.404.
2. The three considerations rule:
"An appointing officer is not required to consider an eligible who has been considered by him for three separate appointments from the same or different certificates for the same position."
5 CFR 332.405.
|
|
|
|
Post by Pixie on Apr 29, 2016 17:42:38 GMT -5
I agree with Gary. If a candidate is officially three struck, it applies to all certs for all locations. At least that is my interpretation and understanding of the rule. Pixie.
|
|
|
|
Post by JudgeRatty on Apr 29, 2016 18:30:24 GMT -5
I agree with Gary and Pixie's statements. Whether or not SSA chooses to 3 strike is another matter. Many have been on every certificate since the first one on this register yet continue to be on certificates, so my guess is they are not 3 striking anyone .... Yet. Everyone who makes a cert is in the game!
|
|
|
|
Post by roggenbier on Apr 29, 2016 20:34:22 GMT -5
I agree with Gary. It's their discretion whether to give you 3 or 30 considerations. Legal to do it either way once in the top 3 for a location. I think they can pass over you once you up in a location after you've been considered once in three locations or three times in one location... It allows the SSA to avoid consideration of everyone who has interviewed before and to go deeper into the register. It's a beauty contest with the initial high score wide GALs having the initial advantage for the first interviews.
|
|
|
|
Post by raylan on Apr 29, 2016 21:07:19 GMT -5
Although the multi cert may be the reason that there haven't been any known three strikes. With one cert, they would keep seeing Person X getting in the top three as they worked their way through the various cities being hired off of that one cert. In the new scheme, however, a "cert-blocker" may not be as readily apparent.
|
|
|
|
Post by roggenbier on May 1, 2016 13:30:34 GMT -5
TIgerLaw,
How has this changed? Arranging who to consider and where has always been ODARs game--it's their discretion. It's how they get whom they want and bypass good scores in favor of lower scores. It appears to me that nothing has changed from the description on the board. You had a relatively small number of high scores with multiple GALs for whom you were supposed to list where you wanted to be considered since you came up in the top three in a number of cities. What ODAR will do is massage where people chose to reach the ones they want and eliminate the ones they don't from this go around--whether they do this before or after the interviews isn't clear, but I think there is a "war room" or used to be that they did this. Bob is personally in the room when this is done, as he told me once.
I thought the register was downsized by means of this crazy exam and 2/3rds of the people eliminated so that ODAR would have less room to massage the register. An insider friend of mine once indicated the massage was to reach insiders, who may not have tested as well, but ODAR wanted to reach. This register appears to have forced ODAR to pass over eligible candidates, as they are entitled to do, to reach lower into the register. Being passed over in a cert is not the same as being permanently eliminated from consideration as in 3 strikes. In the latter, OPM is told not to send a name over for consideration.
|
|
|
|
Post by Serious, J. on May 1, 2016 15:13:29 GMT -5
The more I read about this process, the more confused I am.
|
|
|
|
Post by gary on May 1, 2016 15:16:27 GMT -5
The more I read about this process, the more confused I am. You have taken the first step of wisdom, Grasshopper. |
|
|
|
Post by ba on May 1, 2016 15:40:34 GMT -5
The more I read about this process, the more confused I am. You don't really need to understand the whole process. You just need to do your best at every stage and give yourself the largest opportunity for success (say/write smart things, follow directions, be nice to people, have as large a gal as you can) and the process will be what it will be. Many navigate it successfully without understanding it or knowing anything about this board. |
|
