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Post by zero on Dec 15, 2008 9:33:35 GMT -5
Is being a government attorney a good job? I say yes but it doesn't pay as well as some of our counterparts in the private sector. Here is a recent Money Magazine salary survey. This is for "associate general counsel" positions.
Average pay: $153,923 Salary Total compensation (includes bonus) 75% in this career make more than: $110,431 $118,660 50% in this career make more than: $129,835 $144,514 25% in this career make more than: $148,172 $178,116 Top potential compensation (5% make more): $581,727
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Post by okeydokey on Dec 15, 2008 12:29:51 GMT -5
Generally, speaking, you are comparing apples to oranges.
First, the numbers for private attorneys may well be inflated by the number of attorneys and salaries in large cities. While a GS-13 in NY City might be struggling, the same salary in Omaha or Birmingham would be good.
Second, government attorneys work 40 hours a week (in theory) and are hourly employees. Private attorneys can work much more. Sure, they make twice as much, but they are working two jobs, for all intents and purposes.
Third, government attorneys get extraordinary benefits: 26 days of annual leave (after 15 years), 13 days of sick leave, all federal holidays off, the TSP, better than average health insurance, and job security. That likely cannot be said for most private attorneys.
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Post by zero on Dec 15, 2008 12:39:12 GMT -5
Generally, speaking, you are comparing apples to oranges. First, the numbers for private attorneys may well be inflated by the number of attorneys and salaries in large cities. While a GS-13 in NY City might be struggling, the same salary in Omaha or Birmingham would be good. Second, government attorneys work 40 hours a week (in theory) and are hourly employees. Private attorneys can work much more. Sure, they make twice as much, but they are working two jobs, for all intents and purposes. Third, government attorneys get extraordinary benefits: 26 days of annual leave (after 15 years), 13 days of sick leave, all federal holidays off, the TSP, better than average health insurance, and job security. That likely cannot be said for most private attorneys. Like I said in the post, I agree that we get a nice deal. A rule of thumb I use is to estimate gross compensation per hour worked (subtract vacation, sick leave, etc. from total hours). If you work 3000 hours per year to earn 1.5 times as much as I earn working 1600 hours per year, you're not getting a good deal if your time off has value. Nevertheless, those were some big numbers.
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Post by jagghagg on Dec 15, 2008 12:54:02 GMT -5
"Government attorneys work 40 hours per week" my a$$!!! You BET that is "in theory." I don't and I don't work with any who do. 50-60 is more like it and since government attorneys are "exempt" employees (from the FLSA) we/they don't get OT. I expect ALJs are "exempt" employees as well.
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Post by zero on Dec 15, 2008 15:27:59 GMT -5
jagghag- I understood the FLSA exempt status allowed management to direct comp time instead of OT but I don't believe it allows management to direct unpaid OT. I may be wrong, but that's how we do it in my Agency. Also, I think the DoJ lawyers won a major settlement over this issue and got a lot of back-OT. Unless you are still in the military, I don't think they can do that to you.
If I were running a grocery store, I wouldn't let people walk out with 10% to 20% of my stock without paying for it. Why should a lawyer who sells time have to?
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Post by okeydokey on Dec 15, 2008 15:45:03 GMT -5
If you are a government attorney and you work more than 40 hours per week and you do not get credit hours or overtime and your supervisor knows about it or demands it...
You should file a suit in the Court of Claims.
Attorneys are hourly workers paid on the GS schedule. Sure, if you work overtime, you might only get paid at the 10/10 hourly rate. But you should get paid for the hours you work.
The worst agency I knew of that required more than 40 hours/week of civilian attorneys was Dep't. of the Army. Supervisors, who are generally uniformed officers, seem to be under the impression that attorneys are salaried employees, just like those in uniform.
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Post by jagghagg on Dec 15, 2008 15:54:32 GMT -5
Yes, well, there is a difference between "allowing" an agency to compensate through comp time and requiring it. Also, the kind of comp time a federal exempt employees can "earn" has a life span of 26 weeks - after that, it expires. Perhaps most important is the "cap" -- comp time for exempt employees (IF awarded) will NOT be awarded (even if earned) if the value of that comp time would take the employee's salary past a certain level. (This does not apply to travel comp time which is a different code altogether.). This cap is always reached by long-standing GS-14s and 15s.
As for the DOJ, they lost their case. MODIFICATION: I meant to say that the DOJ attorneys lost their case for overtime. DOJ the Agency won.
As far as the comment regarding "suffer and permit"...(if your supervisor knows or demands)...this kind of claim is almost exclusively a claim for nonexempt employees. (If your supervisor "demands" and you can prove it, maybe.). The jaunt off to COFC requires a "little" Tucker Act claim.
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Post by zero on Dec 15, 2008 16:08:26 GMT -5
If you're trying to work your way up a firm ladder and you're working more than 40 hours a week without paid overtime, well, that's part of the deal. But I agree with okeydokey. We shouldn't be expected to donate time to the government. As Lincoln once said, "A lawyer's time and advice are his stock in trade" and you don't give away your time for free unless it is for charity or family or because that's what you want to do. Jagghagg, you need to stop representing yourself in your labor negotiations!
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Post by jagghagg on Dec 15, 2008 16:18:31 GMT -5
I've been doing this a loooooog time. This is what it is and any lawyer in the federal government who thinks they should only be working 40 hours a week (and if they work more than that and don't get compensated they are being taken advantage of) needs to leave the public sector.
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Post by privateatty on Dec 15, 2008 17:27:26 GMT -5
I don't know how anybody can be a trial attorney and work 40 hours a week. What you do when you're in trial? And how about doing a block of depositions? What about travel? I bet Jagghagg works 16 hour days when she's in trial.
As to my personal experience, when I started my practice, I went 13 years without a vacation, working six days a week. I have slowed down a lot, because I've had to. The concept of being a lawyer and working 40 hours a week throughout your career is not something I'd ever thought of until I read this thread.
Nonetheless, I'm sure they're a bunch of ALJ's who've never had to fill out a malpractice application, make payroll, deal with nagging and unappreciative clients, etc., etc. God Bless 'em.
Finally, there are a lot of starving lawyers. Tens of thousands of 'em. Just read John Grisham.
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Post by aaa on Dec 15, 2008 18:43:01 GMT -5
In ODAR the attorneys (non managers) can work overtime if available and are paid time and a half. The work week is 40 hours unless approved for credit hours. If no OT is available, then comp time is likewise not available. 18 hours is the max (generally) for OT or comp in a week and that much OT is not routinely available, particularly on a CR. Attorneys in this office are not allowed to give away their time to the government. If they are here, they are to receive some kind of compensation. There are also a variety of restrictions as to when the OT/comp/credit can be worked.
As a manager, I could work OT but my pay could not exceed what a GS 15 could make in a week - that capped my OT/comp to about 18 hours in a 2 week pay period. One time of working a bunch of OT and then having it capped and basically earning about $4/hr is all it takes for you to learn that lesson.
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Post by doctorwho on Dec 15, 2008 19:05:18 GMT -5
As a government attorney (for a long long time) and now a Judge, if you are looking to work 40 hours a week, and only 40 hours a week and/or get paid for every single minute of work time you perform, do yourself a favor, drop out now. Get a therapist. You have very unrealistic expectations of what it is like to work for the Government, and what life is all about.
I read so much drivel on this board all I can do is shake my head. In often quoted immortal words: GET A LIFE.
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tater
Full Member
Posts: 73
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Post by tater on Dec 15, 2008 20:33:10 GMT -5
I don't know how anybody can be a trial attorney and work 40 hours a week. What you do when you're in trial? And how about doing a block of depositions? What about travel? I bet Jagghagg works 16 hour days when she's in trial. As to my personal experience, when I started my practice, I went 13 years without a vacation, working six days a week. I have slowed down a lot, because I've had to. The concept of being a lawyer and working 40 hours a week throughout your career is not something I'd ever thought of until I read this thread. Nonetheless, I'm sure they're a bunch of ALJ's who've never had to fill out a malpractice application, make payroll, deal with nagging and unappreciative clients, etc., etc. God Bless 'em. Finally, there are a lot of starving lawyers. Tens of thousands of 'em. Just read John Grisham. Very good point pvt. There are aa and sa at odar and then attorneys that work for other parts of the government. This is apples and oranges. I have dealt with social security reps that graduated law school. My auto insurance agent has a law degree. I advised my son to get an MBA instead of a law degree. As a lawyer, government work is limiting (star aspirations out the window). If you like free time and job security, it aint bad. One would always wonder though if he or she could have been the star.
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Post by sgl on Dec 15, 2008 23:19:38 GMT -5
I don't know how anybody can be a trial attorney and work 40 hours a week. What you do when you're in trial? And how about doing a block of depositions? What about travel? I bet Jagghagg works 16 hour days when she's in trial. As to my personal experience, when I started my practice, I went 13 years without a vacation, working six days a week. I have slowed down a lot, because I've had to. The concept of being a lawyer and working 40 hours a week throughout your career is not something I'd ever thought of until I read this thread. Nonetheless, I'm sure they're a bunch of ALJ's who've never had to fill out a malpractice application, make payroll, deal with nagging and unappreciative clients, etc., etc. God Bless 'em. Finally, there are a lot of starving lawyers. Tens of thousands of 'em. Just read John Grisham. Very good point pvt. There are aa and sa at odar and then attorneys that work for other parts of the government. This is apples and oranges. I have dealt with social security reps that graduated law school. My auto insurance agent has a law degree. I advised my son to get an MBA instead of a law degree. As a lawyer, government work is limiting (star aspirations out the window). If you like free time and job security, it aint bad. One would always wonder though if he or she could have been the star. Could have been the star? What does that even mean? 95% of lawyers just don't have the connections, pedigree or personality to land a BIGLAW partner track job. I'd venture to say a majority end up working at mid-sized law firms most of their career, or engaging in solo practitioner work. Faced with those choices, I'd rather be a government lawyer; the work is probably more interesting and respectable, and you don't have overhead, clients, or constant malpractice fears. Not to mention, with enough years of fed govt legal work under your belt, you may be able to lateral to a private firm later in your career if you like.
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Post by george007 on Dec 16, 2008 8:48:51 GMT -5
As a government attorney (for a long long time) and now a Judge, if you are looking to work 40 hours a week, and only 40 hours a week and/or get paid for every single minute of work time you perform, do yourself a favor, drop out now. Get a therapist. You have very unrealistic expectations of what it is like to work for the Government, and what life is all about. I read so much dribble on this board all I can do is shake my head. In often quoted immortal words: GET A LIFE. Wow. That's really harsh. I work for Department of Defense. We are MANDATED to charge either credit time or comp time or OT when we work more than 40 hours a week. I've actually seen people get a harsh talking to when they DON'T put down time they have worked (we also charge to a customer, so we need to keep an accurate track of time to charge). I guess I feel really lucky. I DO have a life. I was in the top 10%, on law review, and chose to go to the Government so that I COULD keep a good life. I have a wonderful job, make pretty good money, and get to spend time with my husband and child, which IS what is important -- whereas Doctor Who seems to be saying that working is what life is all about? Instead of quoting William Shatner ("GET A LIFE"), I choose to quote Spock, "Live long and prosper." I'm going to be able to do both instead of having a heart attack at an early age as some of those working and stressing about silly things (like what's on a message board) are going to do. By the way, if you think I'm some sort of slacker, I have always gotten the best ratings and bonuses in my agency. I work hard while I'm here.
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Post by jagghagg on Dec 16, 2008 9:40:25 GMT -5
Just to clarify, George007 doesn't speak for the entire DoD. I served a full career with the Air Force and now work for the Navy and have friends in different parts/agencies within DoD and - for the most part - NONE of them mandate, much less allow, comp time.
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Post by zero on Dec 16, 2008 13:21:36 GMT -5
I don't know how anybody can be a trial attorney and work 40 hours a week. What you do when you're in trial? And how about doing a block of depositions? What about travel? I bet Jagghagg works 16 hour days when she's in trial. As to my personal experience, when I started my practice, I went 13 years without a vacation, working six days a week. I have slowed down a lot, because I've had to. The concept of being a lawyer and working 40 hours a week throughout your career is not something I'd ever thought of until I read this thread. Nonetheless, I'm sure they're a bunch of ALJ's who've never had to fill out a malpractice application, make payroll, deal with nagging and unappreciative clients, etc., etc. God Bless 'em. Finally, there are a lot of starving lawyers. Tens of thousands of 'em. Just read John Grisham. I think maybe you're missing the point. I've tried lots of cases and have worked past midnight and started early the next day on some cases. Working hard is part of being an attorney. I also ran my own law practice and worked in other firms and I firmly believe in an hours work for and hours pay AND an hour's pay for an hour's work. There's nothing lazy about that attitude. I charge my clients by the hour (including the government). I have no problem donating my time but that should be my decision, not the client's. If you have made a decision to donate time to the government, I am sure you have made your supervisor very happy. But you shouldn't characterize people who don't share your philosophy as lazy or entitlement-oriented.
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Post by privateatty on Dec 16, 2008 13:36:23 GMT -5
I didn't miss the point, zero. I think if you work for the government as a trial attorney and you only get paid for a 40 hour work week, you're donating time to the government.
On another thread, a long time ago there were posts from those applying regarding the fact that they would be happy to work extra hours, uncompensated, to help with the backlog. As I recall, a few folks weighed in and said that that would be discouraged. Obviously, this is a personal and very dear issue.
Having never worked for the government other than being in the Army, it is all foreign to me. I do think this is a worthwhile discussion; however, as I come from the parochial school that only trial attorneys can understand trial attorneys. However, since we are all trial attorneys and there seems to be some level of misunderstanding inherent in these threads, I stand possibly corrected.
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Post by george007 on Dec 18, 2008 8:58:20 GMT -5
Just to clarify, George007 doesn't speak for the entire DoD. I served a full career with the Air Force and now work for the Navy and have friends in different parts/agencies within DoD and - for the most part - NONE of them mandate, much less allow, comp time. You're correct, especially as you seem to be working for the military side (you're a soldier 24/7 after all!). But, for the civilian side, I've found that it's required that you NOT donate your time. Especially at my agency. Unless you're a manager or on the military side. In any case, that's one of the reasons I chose the job I did!
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Post by jagghagg on Dec 19, 2008 7:57:38 GMT -5
Just to clarify, George007 doesn't speak for the entire DoD. I served a full career with the Air Force and now work for the Navy and have friends in different parts/agencies within DoD and - for the most part - NONE of them mandate, much less allow, comp time. You're correct, especially as you seem to be working for the military side (you're a soldier 24/7 after all!). But, for the civilian side, I've found that it's required that you NOT donate your time. Especially at my agency. Unless you're a manager or on the military side. In any case, that's one of the reasons I chose the job I did! While I was a JAG, I was an employment lawyer with about 95% of my work being in personnel, Title VII and FSLMRS. So my contacts have all been civilian AND I have been a civilian for several years now - including with the Navy doing civilian personnel issues. AND (yet again) my attorney friends to whom I refer are also all retired, working as civilian attorneys for different agencies for DoD - the IG, the Army, DISA, DFAS, DIA, DLA, etc. (It's alphabet soup time!) They are not entitled to comp time/OT. My point is only that it is not mandatory for exempt employees (aka: attorney-advisors). It is permissive. Nice if you can get it, but rare to find. And it will become more rare as the economy tanks. (I should note that for non-exempt employees, it IS "required that you NOT donate your time." And many supervisors of a mixed workforce of exempt and non-exempt employees often treat them the same, adopting the non-exempt standards - which is good for the exempt employees.)
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