Boredom

[jagghagg]

Wow - I have been away from a computer doing depositions and just got to one. Of course, my first stop is here at these boards! Ya'll have been busy this past week!!!

So one of the counsel with whom I was working mentioned that he had friends who were SSA ALJs and - basically - it was doing a hearing and then assigning #1, #2, or #3 canned decision. He said his friends were bored out of their gourd. Kinda spooked me. I DO hate being bored. Even if I am well-paid. So does anyone know ?

(PS - I am interviewing on the 18th of January. Good luck to everyone!!)

[morgullord]

I know (after 19 years of working with SSA ALJs). If you remember that we are dealing with human beings who for the most part are hurting and at the end of their resources, it is hard to find it boring.

[jagghagg]

morgullord said:

I know (after 19 years of working with SSA ALJs). If you remember that we are dealing with human beings who for the most part are hurting and at the end of their resources, it is hard to find it boring.

Ok, THAT I understand and do not denigrate. Please do not think me callous. But what I am asking is if the decisions are "canned" or do we get to actually WRITE ?

[tootsie]

At SSA the ALJs write decision instructions- more or less detailed- but the decision is actually written by an attorney or paralegal writer. Most of the time, for "routine" cases, the writing is done using a "canned" format, with the insertion of case-specific evidence and findings. Writers are assigned not to a particular ALJ, but to a "team," and the cases ready for writing are given to the individual writers by management, not by the ALJs.

[sta]

Since the judges average 40 to 50 cases per month, you do not have time to write the decisions. The time consuming aspects of the case processing are reviewing the files (300 to 500 pages average length); deciding which experts to call to testify; holding the hearing; decide what post development, interrogatories, etc., are necessary after the hearing; and, then writing decision instructions to attorneys and paralegals (which in some offices outnumber the ALJs). The decision instructions typically amount to a check list format following the FITS writing software, but can be written in narrative format. So if you are looking for an extensive brief or decision writing job, this is not what you are looking for.

[odarite]

The job is what you make of it. Remember this is an executive branch job, not an Article III position, you articulate and apply agency policy, you do not make it. I know ALJs who write a lot of their own decisions, but most do not. If you are doing this for the money, then you may well grow bored. If you are doing it for the public service, with a little bit of the chancellor on his white horse thrown in, you can keep yourself fresh for a lot longer.

[Pixie]

Some of the repetitive language is "canned," but the important parts of the decision, which is most of it, is not "canned." You won't have to worry too much about drafting your own decisions, the staff attorneys and the paralegals will do that for you, but you will have to have enough program knowledge to edit your decisions.

It will probably take a year or so before you have gained enough experience and knowledge to have an idea about what needs to be in a decision, or more importantly, left out of one. Just hope that you go to an office that has a good writing staff. You will have a lot more to do in your job than write decisions.

After three to five years, you ought to be pretty good at editing your decisions. It does take a while to become proficient in the job. For the first few years, learn all you can from the experienced attorneys and paralegals. After that listen to them for advice. Pix.

[jagghagg]

Thank you all for your input - I am very appreciative!!!

[extang]

I do not disagree with any comments posted above. Different people with different personalities and values will of course approach this job in different ways. However, if you "hate being bored," being an SSA [or a HCFA/CMS] ALJ may not be the job for you.

My experience has been that I found it to be interesting, even very interesting, for a couple of years. After that, I found myself overwhelmed and stupefyingly bored by the combination of seeing the same impairments over and over; the very similar allegations about limitations ; the same often not especially good attorneys; management's incessant demands for "more, more, faster, faster", coupled with their refusal and/or inability to do anything about personnel and other problems; the bizarre remands from the AC and clueless federal judges and magistrates; and last but most definitely not least the incoherence and inanity of SSA disability policy [itself often shaped by the aforementioned clueless federal judges].

[privateatty]

What did Mr. Gibson(?) say on SNL? Vedy vedy interestink!

And Odarite makes a more metaphysical point that I'm sure is not lost on y'all.

Thanks guys/gals!

[Waffle]

Hey gang!

Don't forget, if the SSA gig starts to make you crazy with boredom, you may always jump ship in a few years to another agency that may not be so rote in nature.

For now, get your proverbial "foot in the door." If you dislike the job, you can always leave for another agency, or quit entirely with a mighty nice resume bullet.

Nothing in this thread is causing me to hesitate at all in regard to an ALJ position with SSA. The pay is great, the hours amazing, uou will have time to pursue your passions outside of the job, and, the job itself will be what you make it. A win-win situation in my book!

[aljsouth]

Sure there is repetition. All jobs have this. As to instructions, we don't use the FITS checkoff because it takes longer than our own instructions which contain some checks and fill in the blanks, but also will tell the writer which hypothetical to use and what the VE testimony was (we us them in all adult disability cases). In narrative we refer to exhibits of interest and why the family doctor's RFC is not accepted (usually because it contradicts his/her own treatment notes or is based solely on complaints of pain).

If you want to write briefs or decisions then this is not the job for you. Although I keep hearing that the puzzle palace will soon require judges to write their own favorable decisions. It will be a disaster of course. The frustrations in the job is not boredom, but the repeated stupidities of the agency.

Good luck.

[jagghagg]

Wow, I've received some rather biting and cryptic e-mail.......Had no idea this would be Pandora's Box. I'm not saying this job is not "a great gig"....I AM saying that it may be worth thinking and talking about. (Some of us are not so young that it is feasible or even possible to "jump ship in a few years" to pursue other aspirations.) If there was one thing I learned in my military career, it was that you can put up with A LOT of negatives related to location if the work you were doing was rewarding and fulfilling. (I've been in a place I hated with a job I loved and I've been in a place I loved with a job I hated and --- in the long run --- preferred to be with a job I loved.) Ah'm jes' sayin" .....

[Pixie]

If you are in a good office, or even a mediocre office, it is a good job. There is a lot of work to be done, and not too many frustrations at the way the staff prepares the files and follows instructions on case processing. At the end of the day there is plenty of time to follow your passions and enjoy life.

If you are in a bad office, there is plenty of time at the end of the day to follow your passions and enjoy life.

Unlike private practice, the weekends will be free and there will be no "late nighters" in preparation for a motion, hearing or trial. You will actually be able to take off on holidays and spend them with family. No more sneaking into the office on Christmas morning or Thanksgiving morning to get a few hours work done before the family festivities commence. You will be able to actually take your vacation time and not lose it because a judge set a trial when you had planned to be out of town on a skiing trip (remember this when you are the judge setting the docket and ruling on requests for postponements!).

Yes, as Extang said, SSA policy can be inane. I might add that it is also contradictory at times, and it will be your job to sift through it all. But with that in mind, a good staff, coupled with a good writing cadre, equals a satisfied and productive judge. Just my opinion. Pix.

[nonamouse]

pixie said:

If you are in a bad office, there is plenty of time at the end of the day to follow your passions and enjoy life.

a good staff, coupled with a good writing cadre, equals a satisfied and productive judge. Just my opinion. Pix.

Amen Pixie!

I would ask that all those who get selected as ALJs please remember to be polite, cordial and sympathetic to the job demands experienced by the staff and writers even if the work is boring. IMO, there are a lot of things that will make an ALJ more miserable in the job than boredom and those pitfalls can be avoided with a little effort.

Especially for those coming from private practice, please realize that you will not have a personal staff with a legal assistant and paralegal solely devoted to accommodating your schedule and/or last minute requests. Someone will very likely be managing your dockets and those of other ALJs at the same time, so last minute changes or failure to review your files in a timely manner pre-hearing can cause major headaches and some resentment by the staff. In the same vein, an ALJ holding onto a case for months post-hearing and then demanding that a writer crank it out immediately because it is now quite aged is unlikely to endear him/herself to anyone.

I've seen new ALJs who could politely listen and adapt based on "suggestions" by the staff/writers and those who took any suggestions as an assault on their lofty position. Believe me the former have transitioned into productive and well-liked ALJs much faster than the latter. I know some people don't really care if they are well-liked by the staff, but IMO it can really hamper your ability to be a productive ALJ if your group despises you and dreads getting assigned to work on your cases. A writer who has been treated poorly by an ALJ is a lot more likely to let that ALJ embarass him/herself with a bad decision instead of pointing out an error in the instructions before the decision goes out the door.

It is a shame when some new ALJs must get numerous remands for the same issue (error), have a pile of backed up cases in their office and/or have a few pointed conversations with their HOCALJ before they begin to realize that some of the "lesser" beings in the office may actually know something about how to properly and efficiently handle a case.

Just my 2 cents as one of the peons who has come to dread seeing certain ALJs' handwriting on a file as my supervisor stands by my desk with the look that says, "I know you are not going to like this but. . ."

[oldtimer]

I can't add much to this discussion, but, most importantly, Private, you gotta cut out those drugs or start on some ones; I think you're probably referring to Arte Johnson on Laugh-In!! ;D

[Pixie]

Thank you Oldtimer, it was "Laugh-In," according to my husband who just walked into this discussion. I'm not old enough to remember that far back. Pix.

[patience]

I have been an attorney in ODAR for 23 years. I do not find the job boring. It is much easier now than years ago when I started but there is enough variety in every case so that every decision is a little different. I advise new judges to be very involved in their work product (would also be good for experienced judges to do the same). I also recommend that new judges try to write some of their decisions, especially affirmations, so they know what is required to prepare a sound, defensible decision. Judges should also carefully monitor their case load so that cases don't get stuck somewhere for days, weeks, or even months. I believe now more than ever it is essential that judges be very involved in their work product as they likely will not have the staff support that has been available in the past. It is necessary that judges know how to read e-files and how to use CPMS. They should also know when a vocational or medical expert is necessary and precisely what information will be obtained from their testimony. I have very often seen both used inappropriately and when that happens it is much more difficulty to prepare a sound decision. Just learning the medical is a challenge and there will always be new impairments "popping up" as well as new diagnostic tools and treatment. Well, enough for now. I expect the judges who are bored are letting others do a lot of their work.

[aaa]

Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in also! After being in ODAR for 17 years, I can't say that I have really ever been bored, but it has at times seemed to be the same old thing, and maybe some degree of burnout. Having said that, being in mgmt has kind of made me look at it differently in some respects. I've had to have more in person contact with some of our claimants and I've always been involved in case review for on the record favorables. I also review cases for expedited hearing based on dire need. I've found if I quit thinking about me and put my mind in more of a public service mode, then my thoughts of "oh no, not another bad back case" kind of melt away. Thinking of how destitute and at the end of their rope most of these folks are and considering most of them are in a legal process they really don't understand, then it makes it a little more real for me. I always try to remember that it's easy for me to understand the process because I work in it everyday - not so for most of the claimants who only see that they worked and paid into Social Security and now they can't do their old job so believe they are entitled to the money. So, I think it's kind of like any job you might have - it's as good or as bad as you make it.

And having worked in a great office, it's been really hard on the office to get new ALJs who said they'd go anywhere spend their first two years working on getting that transfer to where they really want to be. While it's true that a transfer could occur and I might very well be in that position if I am fortunate enough to be hired, I would encourage those who are selected to make the most of where they go. We've trained any number of great productive ALJs only to have them go on to greener pastures. Great for them, but lousy for the office. Just my opinion for what it's worth.

[judicature]

aaa -

excellent post

Remember why the position exists and who it is that you serve as an alj.

aaa - you will make an outstanding alj if you keep that perspective in your new role.