inside verses out certs?

[tater]

Does anyone know what percentage of inside odors folks verses the outside odar folks was on the current certificates? Someone here posted that there was 50 total of the 150 or about one third insiders, supposedly a statement from Mr. Asture.

[hooligan]

tater said:

Does anyone know what percentage of inside odors folks verses the outside odar folks was on the current certificates? Someone here posted that there was 50 total of the 150 or about one third insiders, supposedly a statement from Mr. Asture.

The comment from Astrue was during a meeting with the writers union. He said that the number of Agency people on the list was about 50 out of 600 (not 150), which he said was larger than the historical experience. He was looking at the whole list independent from the number of hires or where they placed comparatively.

[Asterisk]

Was there ever any kind of consensus on whether it was "50" total or "50%"? Does anyone have any actual knoweledge regarding this? I know there were those who thought it was just a mistake and that Astrue really meant 50%, with 50 being too small a #; and others I have talked with were also devided on this. On the other hand, assuming Astrue really meant the other comments about agency people being particualrly valuable and intimating that they would be given some kind of preference bec of their being able to hit the ground running, as it were, would that mean that most if not all the positions (except for veterans) would be filled by insiders, as 50% = 300, double the # of available positions?

[tater]

50 does sound very low Maybe he did mean 50 percent.

[Pixie]

gettingthere said:

Was there ever any kind of consensus on whether it was "50" total or "50%"? Does anyone have any actual knoweledge regarding this? I know there were those who thought it was just a mistake and that Astrue really meant 50%, with 50 being too small a #; and others I have talked with were also devided on this. On the other hand, assuming Astrue really meant the other comments about agency people being particualrly valuable and intimating that they would be given some kind of preference bec of their being able to hit the ground running, as it were, would that mean that most if not all the positions (except for veterans) would be filled by insiders, as 50% = 300, double the # of available positions?

He said 50, I think he says what he means to say. 50 on the register--not 50%.

No, most of the positions will not be filled by insiders. Of course they would like to have the staff attorneys as they have the program knowledge, but they will be selective about who they bring on board.

As I have said in prior posts, they will do what they can to get to a staff attorney who has been productive and who has a good reputation within the ODAR/OHA community. If one of those attributes is lacking, they won't be interested.

The outsiders can quit worrying that the "insiders" will get all of the jobs; it won't happen. Pix.

[tater]

pixie said:

gettingthere said:

Was there ever any kind of consensus on whether it was "50" total or "50%"? Does anyone have any actual knoweledge regarding this? I know there were those who thought it was just a mistake and that Astrue really meant 50%, with 50 being too small a #; and others I have talked with were also devided on this. On the other hand, assuming Astrue really meant the other comments about agency people being particualrly valuable and intimating that they would be given some kind of preference bec of their being able to hit the ground running, as it were, would that mean that most if not all the positions (except for veterans) would be filled by insiders, as 50% = 300, double the # of available positions?

He said 50, I think he says what he means to say. 50 on the register--not 50%.

No, most of the positions will not be filled by insiders. Of course they would like to have the staff attorneys as they have the program knowledge, but they will be selective about who they bring on board.

As I have said in prior posts, they will do what they can to get to a staff attorney who has been productive and who has a good reputation within the ODAR/OHA community. If one of those attributes is lacking, they won't be interested.

The outsiders can quit worrying that the "insiders" will get all of the jobs; it won't happen. Pix.

That answers my question. Apparently same as always nothing changes. Thanks!

[mrjones]

Pix, I have a feel that there are far, far more than 50 on the register and also more than 50 on the cert. From my limited contacts with ODAR attorneys in just 5 offices I know of 8 on the cert, and there are 140 offices. The Astrue comment is hearsay. While I agree that SSA may want to be selective about who they bring on board from within SSA, as well they should, I think at least one the three ALJ training classes will be comprised mainly of inside attys. Compared to the past, there is a turning tide, here, tater. The only rock in the surf is OPM.

[tater]

mrjones said:

Pix, I have a feel that there are far, far more than 50 on the register and also more than 50 on the cert. From my limited contacts with ODAR attorneys in just 5 offices I know of 8 on the cert, and there are 140 offices. The Astrue comment is hearsay. While I agree that SSA may want to be selective about who they bring on board from within SSA, as well they should, I think at least one the three ALJ training classes will be comprised mainly of inside attys. Compared to the past, there is a turning tide, here, tater. The only rock in the surf is OPM.

Yes, opm has a large rock in the surf, but it is not clear sailing from there on. Odar (OHA), has a few boulders also. I do agree with Pixie, however, that if the odar attorneys are well liked, good reps, and have a good work record (yes, unfortunately numbers), he or she will get one of these jobs. I am just hoping that there will more positions that have been in past hires.

Furthermore, these first waves can change things by being highly productive and standing out. This will show give the future certs in a better light with both odar and opm. Maybe some day, as in private industry, people will be promoted up the ladder as they should.

[tater]

kimmy said:

mrjones said:

Pix, I have a feel that there are far, far more than 50 on the register and also more than 50 on the cert. From my limited contacts with ODAR attorneys in just 5 offices I know of 8 on the cert, and there are 140 offices. The Astrue comment is hearsay. While I agree that SSA may want to be selective about who they bring on board from within SSA, as well they should, I think at least one the three ALJ training classes will be comprised mainly of inside attys. Compared to the past, there is a turning tide, here, tater. The only rock in the surf is OPM.

I agree mrjones. I tell ya, just from my limited knowledge, and I am sitting here counting them one by one, I know 11 ODAR attorneys who made the register in only 5 offices too. Of those 11 people, 7 made the SSA certificate. I find it hard to believe that only 50 ODAR people made the register or the certificate.

I also agree with mrjones about the turning tide. This is a new management force now and this is a whole new ballgame.

Kimmy, what new management force? I thought the only hires are aljs? Pardon my skeptism, but I have been second string in this ball park for many years. I could be wrong, and hope I am, but I do not see any diffierence since the 80's. Outside hires and angry insiders. I have learned to preprare for the worst and hope for the best. Long term survival training at OHA!

[southerner]

I think ODAR is slowly realizing what many other agencies have considered for a while. Agency experience is not a negative. It is not necessary, but it does help to have an institutional knowledge of the law and procedure and how it all works together. For a long time, agency experience was derided because it was thought that attorneys from inside would be more biased in favor of the agency and were not "real" attorneys because of little to no litigation experience. The new application or vacancy announcement relfects some revision in thinking in that litigation and/or admin law experience are sufficient to constitute the necessary 7 years.

The agency is under pressure from Congress to address the increasing backlog and current agency attorneys will be expected to hit the ground running much quicker than those without current ability to read medical reports and appreciate their impact as well as vocational considerations and dealing routinely with e-files. Others will come up to speed readily enough, but agency people, regardless of which agency is involved, are more intimately familiar with the procedures, regs, and law, of a particular agency.

[Pixie]

It very well could be that Mr. Astrue mixed his apples and oranges. He may have said "register" when he meant "certificate." That is an easy mistake to make. I saw his comments and believe that he said what he meant to say. But not having much real life experience with registers and certificates, it would be an easy mistake for him to make. Unless, of course, someone else was actually writing his remarks for him.

You may assume that he knows the number of staff attorneys on the full register as well as the certificate recently received.

Like most of you, I personally think the number of only fifty on the entire register is way too low. My guess would have been about one third of all of the candidates would be staff attorneys, but that is only my guess. That number would square with fifty on the certificate. But I think for your purposes, you need to accept what he said.

What about Seimpa? you have developed a pretty good number of candidates that is approaching a valid statistical sample; any feel for the number of ODAR attorneys on the list, or is there any way to make that determination? Pix.

[morgullord]

50 could be a realistic number; in my office, 5 applied but I was the only one who got to the exam and interview.

[tater]

I know of one large office where none of the sa or sa got the cert; however, in another office they all got the cert. Seems odd, but what can a body do?

As I said earlier, I just hope the new insiders do a great job right off the bat for those that remain behind. Show em what we can to stuff Who knows, maybe Congress will enact a law to ensure in house preference.

[Pixie]

kimmy said:

Tater, at the very top. That's where they are.

Pixie, I agree that we have to assume he knows what he is talking about. I have only seen that comment one time - that was on this board and it was posted by Kingfisher. Here's a link to the post: tinyurl.com/2srhr8

I think he meant register for the word "list" because he referred to it as a "list of 600." I don't see how he could mean "certificate" since he apparently made these comments on November 5th - just shy of a month before the certificate was published.

Like I said, in my small world - 5 offices = 11 on the register and 7 on the certificate. I find it hard to believe that almost 15% of the ODAR attorneys who made the certificate (and more than 20% of the ones on the register) came from 5 offices of 141.

I have seen his remarks elsewhere, and had forgotten the date of the remarks. I think that is one reason why I felt he meant register and not certificate. The comment was made before the certificate was requested!

To Tater and Kimmy and other insiders: OCALJ will be very interested in the performance of the inside attorneys who are appointed. They will monitor how well they do (read productive) and be aware of that for future classes.

In the past, OCALJ has generally been pleased with the performance of the insiders. In one or two of the classes after the 2001 big hire (don't remember which one), the inside attorneys had not lived up to expectations, and OCALJ was not particularly pleased with their productivity. As I remember this was toward the end of the old register, and OCALJ was ready for a new register.

So, you better believe they will watch what you do, how quickly you do it and, most importantly, how much of it you do. Pix.

[govtattorney]

if it's 50 or even 50% from the inside, which still leaves 50% (or more) to be evaluated by SSA with no agency experience. What experience(s) do they prefer or that in the past, best translate into good ALJs? For example, workers comp judge from state vs. private attorney practicing SSA? Or, other fed. gov't experience? Or, military background?

[mongo]

It's my understanding that Astrue made the comment when he was addressing the Federal Managers Association, so it's possible (and this is pure conjecture) that when he said "50" he meant 50 current SSA managers, e.g. HODs and Group Sups, as I too find it very difficult to believe that there were only 50 agency attorneys on the register...as I recall, most everyone that I took the WD with (it seems like there were 27 or 28 in the room) was with the agency.

[chris]

govtattorney said:

if it's 50 or even 50% from the inside, which still leaves 50% (or more) to be evaluated by SSA with no agency experience. What experience(s) do they prefer or that in the past, best translate into good ALJs? For example, workers comp judge from state vs. private attorney practicing SSA? Or, other fed. gov't experience? Or, military background?

They prefer people who will work hard and fit within the program. If you have a judicial background that should help. If you have a medical background that will help. Will those two backgrounds trump someone who is perceived to be a slacker or a troublemaker? No way.

[tater]

pixie said:

kimmy said:

Tater, at the very top. That's where they are.

Pixie, I agree that we have to assume he knows what he is talking about. I have only seen that comment one time - that was on this board and it was posted by Kingfisher. Here's a link to the post: tinyurl.com/2srhr8

I think he meant register for the word "list" because he referred to it as a "list of 600." I don't see how he could mean "certificate" since he apparently made these comments on November 5th - just shy of a month before the certificate was published.

Like I said, in my small world - 5 offices = 11 on the register and 7 on the certificate. I find it hard to believe that almost 15% of the ODAR attorneys who made the certificate (and more than 20% of the ones on the register) came from 5 offices of 141.

I have seen his remarks elsewhere, and had forgotten the date of the remarks. I think that is one reason why I felt he meant register and not certificate. The comment was made before the certificate was requested!

To Tater and Kimmy and other insiders: OCALJ will be very interested in the performance of the inside attorneys who are appointed. They will monitor how well they do (read productive) and be aware of that for future classes.

In the past, OCALJ has generally been pleased with the performance of the insiders. In one or two of the classes after the 2001 big hire (don't remember which one), the inside attorneys had not lived up to expectations, and OCALJ was not particularly pleased with their productivity. As I remember this was toward the end of the old register, and OCALJ was ready for a new register.

So, you better believe they will watch what you do, how quickly you do it and, most importantly, how much of it you do. Pix.

Pixie clarified my point. If Kimmey is right, and we have new top managment, they will be closlely scrutinzing the new insiders and that is good. If we do well, it could be the start of something good. In my humble opinon, years ago a few insiders were hired and retried on active duty. It was not their fault, that was the way the system was. The ALJ job was considered a retirement job. Now the inside odar folks for he most part see it ias a career advancment, that will make the difference.

[Pixie]

Tater, for as long as I have been around, OCALJ has been more than willing to hire good inside attorneys as ALJs. The problem, historically, has been for the insiders to score well enough on the exam to make it to the agency on a certificate. Once there, with enough locations selected, and with a good reputation, they get picked up. Will be no different this time around. And, you are right, their work will be watched. Pix.

[tater]

I hear that. In any case, there should be more hires coming from inside odar and thus higher morale within the agency. This will give any slackers (if any) an incentive to work harder and play well with others. Also, even if not chosen as a alj, it will be nice to converse with whom you are writing for in an intelligent coherent manner.

Who knows, maybe with a lot of inside hires, the current aljs (very few)that are slackers with feel guilty and improve the system.