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Post by hooligan on Dec 22, 2007 13:55:05 GMT -5
BTW, I have heard - directly - that SSA actually prefers outsiders AND outsiders who are litigators in the federal sector. You are correct to recognize that many ALJs have a litigation experience bias. However, the internal debate has never been conclusively resolved. Commissioner Astrue has specifically indicated that he likes the idea of hiring Agency attorneys who can "hit the ground running." The only opinion that counts is the one held by the decision maker who pulls the hiring trigger. We don't know who that is or what their bias may be. It makes no sense to worry about it. Present your best shot and you are who you are, so make the most of it. |
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Post by aljsouth on Dec 22, 2007 14:43:11 GMT -5
Oooo, I was smote! Just the messenger! Just the messenger! Duck!  LOL. Every class has a few duds. They come from every background. In the past OPM has not given much credit for ODAR experience. With SSA I think the problem isn't experience, but an unwillingness to move. You have to cooperate in the selection process by giving ODAR options. That way if they want you they have a chance to select you. Some SA's I have known put down one office, or one to three offices. Personally, I think a class of 100 should contain people from several different experience backgrounds. It keeps the ALJ corps healthy. In general having a national program with diverse backgrounds and coming from different parts of the U.S. is good for the corps. I also suspect we all tend to favor our own backgrounds. It is what got us here after all. |
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Post by extang on Dec 22, 2007 16:47:55 GMT -5
If ODAR management knows you and likes you and you make it on the certificate, odds are excellent that you will be hired. I suspect it would be especially helpful to be known and liked by at least one RCALJ. The system is more flexible and manipulable than it seems.
My impression [possibly unfounded and unjustified] is that the preference for outsiders with litigation experience exists mostly among ALJs. It is part of the mythology, common among many lawyers and not only the ones who end up as ALJs, that there is something quasi-magical about litigation experience that, e.g., makes you better able to judge credibility [as far as I can tell, the empirical evidence suggests that no category of people, including in particular experienced litigators, is good at judging credibility]. I do not have the impression that management shares the preference for outsiders. Of course, the people who are interviewing you and initially rating you based on the interview are ALJs, so that even if I am correct, a preference for outsiders with litigation experience could be a significant factor.
It may be useful to try to keep in mind the larger picture: in the broader world of SSA [outside ODAR], management hates and despises ODAR and in particular hates ALJs [insiders or outsiders, litigators or paper pushers, who cares?]. From this point of view, it is more or less taken for granted that whoever you are and wherever you come from, you will be a pain in the ----, the only question being how big a pain you will be.
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Post by extang on Dec 23, 2007 13:40:55 GMT -5
"after being "smited" SIX times":
I'm sorry-- am I one of the posters who you think "smited" you? I certainly did not think that there was anything wrong with your comment or that there was anything offensive about it. I am not sure that the other posters did either. I thought people were just "continuing the conversation" [an allusion to Richard Rorty, if anybody here knows who he is].
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Post by jagghagg on Dec 23, 2007 13:46:45 GMT -5
[an allusion to Richard Rorty, if anybody here knows who he is]. Richard Rorty - philosopher - Stanford University - author of many works to include "Philosophy and the Mirror of Nature"...see ? We are not cretins here ! |
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Post by Pixie on Dec 23, 2007 15:30:45 GMT -5
BTW, I have heard - directly - that SSA actually prefers outsiders AND outsiders who are litigators in the federal sector. You are correct to recognize that many ALJs have a litigation experience bias. However, the internal debate has never been conclusively resolved. Commissioner Astrue has specifically indicated that he likes the idea of hiring Agency attorneys who can "hit the ground running." The only opinion that counts is the one held by the decision maker who pulls the hiring trigger. We don't know who that is or what their bias may be. It makes no sense to worry about it. Present your best shot and you are who you are, so make the most of it. In the past the Chief Judge and the Associate Commissioner were the ones who made the hiring decisions. I see no reason to believe it will change this time around, although I imagine that the Deputy Chief will be involved in the process as well. Pix. |
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Post by jagghagg on Dec 28, 2007 10:36:32 GMT -5
Just so ya'll know, I deleted that post. In pain.....limping.....on meds.....needing to recover from the "smite of the messenger" game.
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Post by amj on Jan 11, 2008 15:47:36 GMT -5
Of the five people present for interviews at my given time, four were ODAR attorneys...total of fifty even on the cert seems more and more unlikely to me - to clarify, it seems there must be well more than 50.
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knownuthin
Full Member
Out of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.
Posts: 114
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Post by knownuthin on Jan 23, 2008 14:51:45 GMT -5
FWIW, I heard that the "50" referred to by the Commissioner were just from OGC and did not include ODAR applicants.
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Post by youngster on Jan 23, 2008 19:14:19 GMT -5
There are not 50 OGC persons on the cert.
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Post by doctorwho on Jan 23, 2008 20:52:42 GMT -5
Inside certs, ouside certs, maybe I'm just getting tired here folks -- but, seriously, what the heck does it matter? I sincerely wish everybody luck in this endeavor -- regardless of where you are applying from (inside, outside, upsidedown, right-side-up). Does it really matter at this point? There are numerous theories out there about who has an "advantage" and who doesn't. Some people think that being on the "outside" is better, some people think being on the "inside" is better. Again, does it matter? At this point, we're all waiting, nothing is in our control, and other people are making the decisions.
Will familiarity with the program have some positive bearing on hiring? It should. Any good manager will tell you that. Could knowing the candidate weigh against hiring? It could. Any good manager will tell you that too. Could bringing a fresh perspective have some positive bearing on hiring? Yes. Could not knowing anything about a program hurt your chances? Yes. You see, it's all in how the "experience" is phrased.
Regardless of how many candidates are from "inside" or "outside," try your hardest, do your best (and all the other scout things) and take some solace/pride in that you've gotten this far. We're all waiting and we all know very little about what's going on. Perhaps that's why we (myself most assuredly included) visit this board and read about issues like this. In the end, however, I do keep asking myself, what does it really matter? Just MHO. LTFB.
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Post by jagghagg on Jan 23, 2008 23:21:32 GMT -5
You rock, Doc!
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Post by privateatty on Jan 24, 2008 8:35:12 GMT -5
I went to Google to find out what "LTFB" is. Leaving the freaking building (polite form) according to this online dictionary. You didn't need to qualify it with your humble opinion, drwho, me 'n jagghagg (why do I pause when I agree with her--must be a subliminal thing?) think that was a rockin' post! And needed in these nail bitin' times. OK, maybe not even a few of ya are doin' that, but I am.
I think though that we all need to respect each others' desire here--and insecurities. Every desire to be an ALJ is different; some are purely financial, some are pure ego, some are pure desire to help these kicked-to-the-curb claimants. Most are a mixture of these motives/desires. Maybe there are a few like me who REALLY want to come in from the cold and try to do something to which I feel I have a calling. And being solo is no picnic anymore.
Some folks get a little annoyed when you are not "of the faith" and detect a desire that is not "pure"--like SHOW ME THE MONEY or will the robe be polyester or silk? Either extreme seems to me just that, an extreme. I don't know who is out there that we are competing against, but I like you guys and gals alot and I hope we all make it. I don't see extremeism here, just a little ego now and then, some fear and anxiety, God knows me included.
As to talking to ALJ's who don't like their jobs, well, they can always leave and go to the private sector. Law firms will hire ALJ's. They may have to hustle clients and work 60 hr work weeks and deal with partners who make HOALJs look like Pollyana, but heck, its a choice. I got very annoyed with an ALJ once who was complaining about her job from the bench in a break.
Beyond it not being very classy, she had no idea what some people go through to do their job. No idea...
So YES, drwho, right on here. Thanks for the "check" to the paranoia, insecure bone.
So lets keep our chins held high and our powder dry! Oh and yeah, LTFB!
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Post by doctorwho on Jan 24, 2008 9:44:04 GMT -5
With my apologies to Google, LTFB = Let the Flames Begin!  |
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Post by jagghagg on Jan 24, 2008 10:53:47 GMT -5
With my apologies to Google, LTFB = Let the Flames Begin! ...and here I had assigned a different word beginning with "F" to the phrase. |
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Post by privateatty on Jan 24, 2008 10:57:41 GMT -5
With my apologies to Google, LTFB = Let the Flames Begin! ...and here I had assigned a different word beginning with "F" to the phrase. You think maybe that's a Freudian thang? The unexamined life...  |
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Post by jagghagg on Jan 24, 2008 11:09:00 GMT -5
The unexamined life... ...is not worth living, you poor thing. |
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Post by doctorwho on Jan 24, 2008 11:18:15 GMT -5
...and here I had assigned a different word beginning with "F" to the phrase. You think maybe that's a Freudian thang? The unexamined life... The unexamined life is a wonderful song from the musical Wicked. Believe me when I say, I'm very familar with musicals, flames, and my own examined life.  |
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Post by testtaker on Jan 24, 2008 13:46:02 GMT -5
OK, so what is MHO? LMHO?
Private Attorney - YOU rock. Great post. I just had to exalt you again!
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Post by jagghagg on Jan 24, 2008 13:46:35 GMT -5
The unexamined life is a wonderful song from the musical Wicked. Believe me when I say, I'm very familiar with musicals, flames, and my own examined life. Well, for those of us who prefer the book to the musical (and the book "Wicked" really IS better than the musical), the quote: "An unexamined life is not worth living" is actually attributed to Socrates, of course.....ah'm jus sayin' ......it came before Broadway. *** Now then, in support of Dr. Who, and in begrudging deference to PrivateAtty, I've re-read this entire thread regarding insiders and outsiders. While I am clearly an "outsider," one does begin to get an idea of what must have gone on on the Wild Wild West boards about this. (No, I have no desire to check it out.) It seems Tater, Mr Jones, Patriotsfan, Morgullord and Chris are insiders, so they can correct me if I am wrong (and Lord knows I have been thoroughly flamed [ie: smote] on this subject before) but it is my perception that there is a feeling amongst insiders that they should have a preference to step from being a staff attorney to being an ALJ; and an assumption that the standards set by OPM may have been done intentionally (rock/sea) to keep insiders from moving into the ALJ positions. Elsewhere on these boards is the hint of resentment for the Vet preferences (extra points and status when among the Rule of Three). Of course, OPM was having to correct the past "errors" with regard to Veterans AND was creating a list for other agencies who have/need ALJs - not just SSA. (Bye-bye, Peejay!!! And good luck at DOL. We are all pretty darn jealous!) So having "insider" subject matter experience just wouldn't serve well as a criteria. Further, those of us who litigate know that one of the main attributes of a litigator is the ability to learn a new area each time you take on a case. I mean, we are attorneys, for cryin' out loud - generally we rate relatively high on the intelligence scale. (Yeah, yeah - we have ALL run into the exceptions.) So, as the rockin' Doc said, sure - subject matter expertise would be nice, but it's not gonna carry the day. The ability to learn, work nose to the grindstone, and play well with others is going to carry the day, and these attributes are not only found in insiders.....outsiders are not devoid of these abilities... believe it or not, veterans have these abilities. Man, I feel like Rodney King: "People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? " The process IS what it is; whomever made the cert, made the cert; whomever gave a good interview, gave a good interview; whomever gets an offer will get an offer. Let's be supportive of each other and not wonder if there is some vast conspiracy to keep any set of individuals down when it just doesn't appear that there is such. |
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LOL.
