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Post by hopefalj on Sept 14, 2013 16:30:51 GMT -5
I have a limited GAL for family reasons. One thing that is overlooked its that no one knows the details of the selection process. As I understand it, ssa starts in one location and works across the county. Actually, I don't think we know for sure that they "start in one location and works across the country", but it is absolutely true that the order in which selections are made can have a big effect on who gets hired off a given cert, and for what location. I would love to be a fly on the wall when they do their selections. It has to be a complex process requiring significant strategic maneuvering.
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Post by funkyodar on Sept 14, 2013 16:43:43 GMT -5
You might be right redsox. there are just too many factors, unknown processes and straight up geographical voodoo to have any real comfortin the process.
That said, I think there are a few truthes we can discern:
1. to get a job with any agency other than ssa, you need to have scores in the highest part of the register and your gal must include DC, NY, northern Virginia and in some cases LA and San Diego. (Also helps to have prior experience with the agency or some inside connections.)
2. the wider your gal, the better chance you have to be among the top 3 scoring candidates willing to go to one of the places. Thus, better chance to get a job. While we are all competing for a job,in reality we are really competing for hundreds of jobs, some in every city among the gal choices. So,in reality, you are only competing against those other candidates that want the same cities you do. If ssa decides to hire for crapland city and you are the only one on the register willing to go there, they hire you or no one. The more cities you have, the more games you are playing and the more chances you have to win. The danger is, you better be willing to really go there and counting on being able to transfer later is a very risky gamble this time.
And 3. If you limited your gal to only the "popular" locales you may have a long wait or no shot at all. SSA always works the transfer request list before a hire. Those popular locations with openings will have them filled by existing judges which in turn opens more slots in the less desired locales. New hires to the popular cities are very rare.
In the end, we all had the same opportunity to choose the job competitions we wanted to play in. Those that went large without adequate consideration of family, location and realistic transfer chances will most likely regret it far more than those that were realistic in regard to the jobs value versus moving their family somewhere they hate or living in a different part of the country from their family for an extended period.
There is much stress and excitement to stoke the competitive juices in this process. Butdon't let that cause loss of sight of the endgame. Its just a job. It pays well, but no better than most private sector jobs an attorney with the experience opm requires could have. You get to be a judge, but one with fewer powers and professional benefits than most municipal judges. It offers great benefits and family time, but how nice will that beif all that family time is in a location your family hates?
Those that put real thought in selecting their gal and went small as a result may have less of a chance in landing a job, but I wholeheartedly believe they will be happier if they do and will most likely be happier if they don't than someone who has to go somewhere they hate to get the job.
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Post by epic0ego on Sept 14, 2013 17:57:44 GMT -5
funkyodar, thank you for crystallizing this stuff. it couldn't be said more clearly. i will never be picked as an alj but i picked the widest gal that I could, in good faith. I also scored in the low 80s and have an ivy-league background. that is life. odar picks what they need, and getting picked off the register for another agency is truly akin to hitting the lottery. my best to all you super achievers or super flexible lawyers out there.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2013 21:30:09 GMT -5
[/quote]I would love to be a fly on the wall when they do their selections. It has to be a complex process requiring significant strategic maneuvering. [/quote]
Based on Pixie's and Bartleby's posts I believe that a major aspect of how they work through the process involves the Veteran Preference eligibles who are not deemed to be good fits for the agency. They must work through the cert in a manner to give those vets consideration for three offices and once they pass them over using other vets those individuals are no longer eligible.
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Post by privateatty on Sept 15, 2013 11:51:36 GMT -5
I would love to be a fly on the wall when they do their selections. It has to be a complex process requiring significant strategic maneuvering. [/quote] Based on Pixie's and Bartleby's posts I believe that a major aspect of how they work through the process involves the Veteran Preference eligibles who are not deemed to be good fits for the agency. They must work through the cert in a manner to give those vets consideration for three offices and once they pass them over using other vets those individuals are no longer eligible. [/quote] I think there are three categories: Wanted, not wanted and maybe. History dictates that if you are in the later two categories and are in the way of a "wanted", you will be thrice struck.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2013 12:10:00 GMT -5
I would love to be a fly on the wall when they do their selections. It has to be a complex process requiring significant strategic maneuvering. Based on Pixie's and Bartleby's posts I believe that a major aspect of how they work through the process involves the Veteran Preference eligibles who are not deemed to be good fits for the agency. They must work through the cert in a manner to give those vets consideration for three offices and once they pass them over using other vets those individuals are no longer eligible. [/quote] I think there are three categories: Wanted, not wanted and maybe. History dictates that if you are in the later two categories and are in the way of a "wanted", you will be thrice struck. [/quote] Agreed, what probably makes the whole process challenging is that if you have a "not wanted" vet who is on top of three locations they have to be "considered" and passed over three times by using a "wanted" vet. If this cannot be done then I suspect that the location will not be filled because the "not wanted" vet cannot be passed over by a non vet (unless Arduous OPM bypass process is used).
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Post by meglev on Sept 16, 2013 13:32:21 GMT -5
Last month I asked OPM about amending the GAL.
DC Trip Report(s) Aug 19, 2013 at 7:50am Quote Edit Select PostDeselect PostLink to PostReport PostDelete PostMemberSend MessageGive GiftBack to Top. .Post by meglev on Aug 19, 2013 at 7:50amAug 18, 2013 at 11:24pm 17 said: Should I advance, my intent is to further narrow my already very limited GAL. It is not that I don't understand the process or cannot move elsewhere. I guess I don't "want this job badly enough." Put another way, I have peace of mind with the choices I'm making -- and if I don't land a position in the couple of cities where I want to live and know I'd be happy, c'est la vie.
This was the result of inquiring OPM about modifying my GAL. I emphasized the add or remove portion. In the past, the GAL could be reduced when the cert was completed. Now? YMMV:
The Administrative Law Judge (ALJ) Job Opportunity Announcement (JOA), number ALJ2013-847661 is currently closed to the receipt of applications except as required by 5 CFR 332.311. As stated in the 2013 ALJ JOA: “Please carefully select the geographical locations where you would be willing to accept an appointment as an ALJ by an agency of the Federal Government. Once this ALJ Job Opportunity Announcement closes, you will not be able to change (i.e., add or remove) your selected geographical location(s) until the next ALJ Job Opportunity Announcement open period.”
Accordingly, requests to revise geographical locations cannot be accepted at this time.
Sincerely,
Administrative Law Judge Program Office
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Post by Gaidin on Sept 16, 2013 14:24:43 GMT -5
This was the result of inquiring OPM about modifying my GAL. I emphasized the add or remove portion. In the past, the GAL could be reduced when the cert was completed. Now? YMMV: The Administrative Law Judge (ALJ) Job Opportunity Announcement (JOA), number ALJ2013-847661 is currently closed to the receipt of applications except as required by 5 CFR 332.311. As stated in the 2013 ALJ JOA: “Please carefully select the geographical locations where you would be willing to accept an appointment as an ALJ by an agency of the Federal Government. Once this ALJ Job Opportunity Announcement closes, you will not be able to change (i.e., add or remove) your selected geographical location(s) until the next ALJ Job Opportunity Announcement open period.” Accordingly, requests to revise geographical locations cannot be accepted at this time. Sincerely, Administrative Law Judge Program Office I wonder if folks will be allowed to remove cities from their GAL? How I read the original announcement was that if you pulled 3 cities from your list you were done and would no longer be considered. My understanding has certainly grown significantly since then and I had come to believe that I was reading that wrong but now that I see this I wonder. Of course you still say no to the job.
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Post by 71stretch on Sept 16, 2013 14:27:38 GMT -5
Last month I asked OPM about amending the GAL. DC Trip Report(s) Aug 19, 2013 at 7:50am Quote Edit Select PostDeselect PostLink to PostReport PostDelete PostMemberSend MessageGive GiftBack to Top. .Post by meglev on Aug 19, 2013 at 7:50amAug 18, 2013 at 11:24pm 17 said: Should I advance, my intent is to further narrow my already very limited GAL. It is not that I don't understand the process or cannot move elsewhere. I guess I don't "want this job badly enough." Put another way, I have peace of mind with the choices I'm making -- and if I don't land a position in the couple of cities where I want to live and know I'd be happy, c'est la vie. This was the result of inquiring OPM about modifying my GAL. I emphasized the add or remove portion. In the past, the GAL could be reduced when the cert was completed. Now? YMMV: The Administrative Law Judge (ALJ) Job Opportunity Announcement (JOA), number ALJ2013-847661 is currently closed to the receipt of applications except as required by 5 CFR 332.311. As stated in the 2013 ALJ JOA: “Please carefully select the geographical locations where you would be willing to accept an appointment as an ALJ by an agency of the Federal Government. Once this ALJ Job Opportunity Announcement closes, you will not be able to change (i.e., add or remove) your selected geographical location(s) until the next ALJ Job Opportunity Announcement open period.” Accordingly, requests to revise geographical locations cannot be accepted at this time. Sincerely, Administrative Law Judge Program Office I think you will still be able to remove yourself from consideration for certain cities once SSA puts you on a cert and sends you the city list. That's a process that SSA handles, though they pass your info back to OPM. What you have quoted above is no different from the response OPM has given to similar inquiries in the past. Gaidin,It isn't removing three or more cities from your list when you get put on a cert that makes you "done"-that doesn't do anything except take you off the list for those cities.... it's turning down three offers that makes you "done" from the register-- I do seem to recall that language from somewhere,.
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Post by Gaidin on Sept 16, 2013 14:39:09 GMT -5
Gaidin,It isn't removing three or more cities from your list when you get put on a cert that makes you "done"-that doesn't do anything except take you off the list for those cities.... it's turning down three offers that makes you "done" from the register-- I do seem to recall that language from somewhere,. Ahhhh I see. Ok. That is helpful thank you.
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Post by sandiferhands (old) on Oct 1, 2013 17:37:46 GMT -5
Can we change our GAL? If so, how and what is the effect? What if we turn down a job offer?
The following quotations are from the Application, which I have to consider authoritative for those of us who tested this fall, and my analysis follows the quotes:
(1) "Geographic Availability: Please carefully select the geographical locations where you would be willing to accept an appointment as an ALJ by an agency of the Federal Government. Once this ALJ Job Opportunity Announcement closes, you will not be able to change (i.e., add or remove) your selected geographical location(s) until the next ALJ Job Opportunity Announcement open period. OPM may announce additional periods during which candidates already on the register may make changes, at OPM's discretion.
If, after selecting your geographical location(s), you decline consideration for a geographical location for which you indicated availability, you will be removed from further consideration for that location. You will not be able to reinstate a location from which you have been removed until the next ALJ Job Opportunity Announcement open period."
This seems to state that there will be no change (+ or -) allowed to the GAL. However, it then also states that after selecting your GAL if you "decline consideration" for a location on your GAL certain results follow. This implies that deleting a place will be allowed. I can't tell which statement is true.
Assuming you can delete a place, that seems to be during the process of their "consideration" of you for a position, implying pre-offer. If so, and if you do delete a location, then the only consequence is that you can't go back and add that location back in until they open a new announcement period.
(2) "By submitting an ALJ application, you are expressing your interest and availability for ALJ employment.
Declination of Job Offers: If you decline two (2) job offers you will be suspended from the ALJ register for a period of one (1) year or until the register is terminated, whichever comes first. If after one (1) year you wish to have your name returned to the ALJ register, you must submit your request in writing...
The ALJ register is scheduled to expire in October 2015, although OPM may extend that date."
Once you get to the point of resolving your GAL, and make a cert, you will interview and then may receive none or one or more job OFFERS for places on your GAL. You can only decline TWO offers--if you do, then you are suspended from the register for one year. And since the information we have is that interviews and offers will be around spring-June of 2014 and this Register expires in October of 2015, a little over a year after that, it effectively means that if you decline two offers this spring you essentially remove yourself from the process and severely reduce your chance of being hired at all.
The takeaway, as I see it: (1) comb your GAL carefully and be ready to remove any place your aren't sure you and the family would go to if given the chance, and (2) discuss now with your spouse/family the hypothetical that you get an offer for the two worst places on your GAL and have to take the second one or lose the opportunity altogether--are they prepared to move to that place or will you abandon this register by refusing your second offer?
If I'm incorrect or missed a nuance please let me know.
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Post by 71stretch on Oct 1, 2013 19:55:49 GMT -5
I think you nailed it. I had forgotten the part about this register expiring in October 2015, absent extension. When you think about it that is not too far off. Assuming the testing process remains the same, I'll predict right now that this register will not expire in 2015. It may be refreshed at that time. The current register had its expiration date changed at least once. And, to clarify an earlier post. You only get one offer per cert.
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Post by sandiferhands (old) on Oct 2, 2013 11:52:14 GMT -5
I think you nailed it. I had forgotten the part about this register expiring in October 2015, absent extension. When you think about it that is not too far off. Assuming the testing process remains the same, I'll predict right now that this register will not expire in 2015. It may be refreshed at that time. The current register had its expiration date changed at least once. And, to clarify an earlier post. You only get one offer per cert. Obeserver--I'm not disputing your statement about "one offer per cert." But how do you know this? I have found every description of the cert/interview/offer process confusing. I thought that a "certification" occurred when OPM received a request from, e.g., ODAR for a certification of potential appointees. OPM would gather the top scoring candidates' names. If ODAR said it was filling 10 positions, then OPM would send 30 names, three per position. Interviews then take place. If someone in that group of 30 had included in his GAL multiple hearing offices that were also on the list of 10 positions needed to be filled, he would be eligible for an offer from each of those GAL+ODAR openings, and could get an offer from each of them. Where does it say he would only get an offer from at most one of the open ODAR positions?
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Post by funkyodar on Oct 2, 2013 13:09:30 GMT -5
Assuming the testing process remains the same, I'll predict right now that this register will not expire in 2015. It may be refreshed at that time. The current register had its expiration date changed at least once. And, to clarify an earlier post. You only get one offer per cert. Obeserver--I'm not disputing your statement about "one offer per cert." But how do you know this? I have found every description of the cert/interview/offer process confusing. I thought that a "certification" occurred when OPM received a request from, e.g., ODAR for a certification of potential appointees. OPM would gather the top scoring candidates' names. If ODAR said it was filling 10 positions, then OPM would send 30 names, three per position. Interviews then take place. If someone in that group of 30 had included in his GAL multiple hearing offices that were also on the list of 10 positions needed to be filled, he would be eligible for an offer from each of those GAL+ODAR openings, and could get an offer from each of them. Where does it say he would only get an offer from at most one of the open ODAR positions? Sand, This is how I understand it would work in your hypo. Odar has 10 openings in 10 cities. opm sends over the top 30, 3 highest ranked candidates from those that listed the 10 cities or any one, two etc of them. Candidate john doe has a wide open gal wherein all 10 cities are listed. Based on his score, he is the top ranked for 3 of the cities, and in the top 3 for 2 more. For 5 of the slots, lets assume he didn't make the top 3. he will not be in consideration for the 5 in which he wasn't in the top 3. Ssa interviews are held and john doe is picked for an offer. not an offer to a specific city (though it can only be for one he was in consideration for). then, in some mystical unknown way that may have something to do with odar area of need or may involve a dartboard, odar decides which of the 5 slots john was in contention for he actually gets offered. John only gets one offer and all 10 offers go out pretty close to simultaneously. if he accepts, john packs his bags. If he declines, he doesn't get another offer to one of the other cities he was in consideration for. remember, those slots have already been offered to others. instead, john goes back to the register and hopes to be on a future cert. though, in reality, his turning down an offer to a city he originally said he would go, then didn't strike that city when given a chance when he was placed on the cert wasn't truthful and wasted odars time. so his chance of ever getting another offer is pretty slim. This is why the selection of your gal was muy important. still, when the cert arrives you will be able to strike (but not add) cities you want to be considered for. kinda like them saying "you said you would go to east BFE, you sure about that?" if you say yes again, then get an offer to east BFE, better not backtrack in hopes of landing someplace else.
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Post by Gaidin on Oct 2, 2013 14:00:52 GMT -5
Dibs on East BFE before Lurker can grab it.
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Post by ginger on Oct 2, 2013 14:10:39 GMT -5
Double dibs in case Gaidin turns it down when offered.
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Post by workdrone on Oct 2, 2013 14:48:54 GMT -5
Where does it say he would only get an offer from at most one of the open ODAR positions? Sand, Ob53 and Funky are right. Due to the rule of three and other hiring rules, SSA has always only offered one location per candidate. It's a no negotiation, take it or leave it offer. While I don't have a citation for you, that's what I have gathered based on info reported here since 2008.
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Post by yarddog on Oct 2, 2013 15:31:10 GMT -5
Where does it say he would only get an offer from at most one of the open ODAR positions? Sand, Ob53 and Funky are right. Due to the rule of three and other hiring rules, SSA has always only offered one location per candidate. It's a no negotiation, take it or leave it offer. While I don't have a citation for you, that's what I have gathered based on info reported here since 2008. The last few posts on this make the offer process much more mysteriousless. Thanks ! Dibs on lower east central Egypto
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Post by Gaidin on Oct 2, 2013 16:12:33 GMT -5
Wait I didn't know lower western Crapland was an option. Dibs on that as well. haha Lurker you picked a bad day to get busy helping clients.
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Post by epic0ego on Oct 2, 2013 16:37:44 GMT -5
devildog, lol. This has been my problem all along. Many of us are happy to eat the fruit of the ALJ tree, especially the low-hanging fruit - but are unwilling to eat the bark, stalks, roots, etc. OPM and ODAR have been playing this game alot longer than we have and have a tremendous advantage in the "smoke-filled rooms" where the positions are allocated. Its akin to "betting against the house" in Vegas. You can do it, and you might win, but my money is always with the House. There are alot of smart people over there at OPM and ODAR. It's their way or the highway, as it should be. I have given my pound of flesh but I am unwilling to sacrifice vital organs as well.
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