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Post by trekker on Oct 15, 2013 8:35:01 GMT -5
If we get a NOR for Thanksgiving, it will be a turkey. If we wait until Christmas (or other celebratory holiday) then we get a present.
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Post by moopigsdad on Oct 15, 2013 8:37:18 GMT -5
If we get a NOR for Thanksgiving, it will be a turkey. If we wait until Christmas (or other celebratory holiday) then we get a present. With the shutdown, I would suspect the earliest we now get a NOR will be prior to Christmas. I think prior to Thanksgiving is now out of the question due to the shutdown. If it last longer it may not be until January 2014.
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Post by lurker/dibs on Oct 15, 2013 9:54:00 GMT -5
If they are grading as we go and only a handful are going/went this week, surely it won't take too long to get results out. Most should already be done, I would think. Of course I'm basing this all on logic, and we know there is a lacking of logic when it comes to OPM and this process.
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Post by ssaogc on Oct 15, 2013 9:59:09 GMT -5
Looking at the prior timelines it seems that SSA had interviews right after NORs are sent out. I do not know if that will happen this time around. SSA is on record that it will hire next summer the earliest. There is a possibility of litigation with the new testing format, the way vet points were factored in twice but only counted once (wink wink) not to mention an avalanche of appeals once NORs are released. Right now the budget deals proposed takes us to Jan or Feb of next year before another possible crisis.
I would love ro have the NORs come out ASAP but i do not believe they will be out until the SSA has concrete a hiring plan
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Post by BagLady on Oct 15, 2013 10:55:01 GMT -5
If we get a NOR for Thanksgiving, it will be a turkey. If we wait until Christmas (or other celebratory holiday) then we get a present. Except that this year Hanukkah falls on Thanksgiving ("Thanksgivukkah"), so it would have to be good news! This is a once-in-a-lifetime event!
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Post by 71stretch on Oct 15, 2013 11:53:33 GMT -5
Looking at the prior timelines it seems that SSA had interviews right after NORs are sent out. I do not know if that will happen this time around. SSA is on record that it will hire next summer the earliest. There is a possibility of litigation with the new testing format, the way vet points were factored in twice but only counted once (wink wink) not to mention an avalanche of appeals once NORs are released. Right now the budget deals proposed takes us to Jan or Feb of next year before another possible crisis. I would love ro have the NORs come out ASAP but i do not believe they will be out until the SSA has concrete a hiring plan SSA/ODAR is not in control of this process. The NORs come from OPM. OPM has no need to wait until SSA has a hiring plan. SSA was ready to do a big hire when the NORs went out last time; they asked for a cert relatively quickly. But that was then, this is now. There are other agencies involved as well. OPM will get the register in place; who uses it, and when, is up to those agencies. Unless there is litigation that puts an injunction in place, the register will continue to be available to SSA and other agencies, and the administrative appeals/litigation will have whatever results they have.
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Post by gottabeme on Oct 15, 2013 12:11:51 GMT -5
Your logic is certainly more reasonable that the LBMT!
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Post by ssaogc on Oct 15, 2013 12:38:26 GMT -5
the way vet points were factored in twice but only counted once (wink wink) Can you explain what you mean by this? The paragraph regarding vet points was confusing, but after reading it multiple times I think I can conceptualize what they are doing. But if I am missing out on, or are a part of, some secret squirrel conspiracy I would like to have some awareness of it. Thanks, Vet points were used to get vets past phase two and into phase three. I am all for vet points added at the end of the competive examination but in this case there was a double benefit which if i had been eliminated at phase two i would have a problem with the scheme. Just saying there might be some folks that take exception to this and they may litigate it like they did in Adzell.
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Post by moopigsdad on Oct 15, 2013 12:49:31 GMT -5
Can you explain what you mean by this? The paragraph regarding vet points was confusing, but after reading it multiple times I think I can conceptualize what they are doing. But if I am missing out on, or are a part of, some secret squirrel conspiracy I would like to have some awareness of it. Thanks, Vet points were used to get vets past phase two and into phase three. I am all for vet points added at the end of the competive examination but in this case there was a double benefit which if i had been eliminated at phase two i would have a problem with the scheme. Just saying there might be some folks that take exception to this and they may litigate it like they did in Adzell. I am not a Veteran, but I think Vet points should apply throughout the whole process not just at the end of the process. Part of the issue is Vets should be able to benefit and move up in the entire process due to their service. I have no problem with the issuance of Vet points at all during the whole process.
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Post by moopigsdad on Oct 15, 2013 12:52:08 GMT -5
If they are grading as we go and only a handful are going/went this week, surely it won't take too long to get results out. Most should already be done, I would think. Of course I'm basing this all on logic, and we know there is a lacking of logic when it comes to OPM and this process. If they are using ALJs to grade the exams their will be an issue with the grading until the shutdown ends. Unless, they are using retired ALJs in the process. I just think what might have been scores by Thanksgiving will now be scores prior to Christmas. It's just my take on it.
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Post by ssaogc on Oct 15, 2013 12:52:10 GMT -5
Looking at the prior timelines it seems that SSA had interviews right after NORs are sent out. I do not know if that will happen this time around. SSA is on record that it will hire next summer the earliest. There is a possibility of litigation with the new testing format, the way vet points were factored in twice but only counted once (wink wink) not to mention an avalanche of appeals once NORs are released. Right now the budget deals proposed takes us to Jan or Feb of next year before another possible crisis. I would love ro have the NORs come out ASAP but i do not believe they will be out until the SSA has concrete a hiring plan SSA/ODAR is not in control of this process. The NORs come from OPM. OPM has no need to wait until SSA has a hiring plan. SSA was ready to do a big hire when the NORs went out last time; they asked for a cert relatively quickly. But that was then, this is now. There are other agencies involved as well. OPM will get the register in place; who uses it, and when, is up to those agencies. Unless there is litigation that puts an injunction in place, the register will continue to be available to SSA and other agencies, and the administrative appeals/litigation will have whatever results they have. Just making an observation based on past timelines and budget realities. Yea OPM is in charge of register but SSA pays the bill for the testing and they do have a say on the test and i would say that OPM does keep SSA informed. Other Agencies have always been there but they hire very few applicants compared to SSA. Just my POV
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Post by ssaogc on Oct 15, 2013 13:10:46 GMT -5
Vet points were used to get vets past phase two and into phase three. I am all for vet points added at the end of the competive examination but in this case there was a double benefit which if i had been eliminated at phase two i would have a problem with the scheme. Just saying there might be some folks that take exception to this and they may litigate it like they did in Adzell. I am not a Veteran, but I think Vet points should apply throughout the whole process not just at the end of the process. Part of the issue is Vets should be able to benefit and move up in the entire process due to their service. I have no problem with the issuance of Vet points at all during the whole process. We are all attorneys and we all interpret laws differently depending on the side we advocate for. If you read the vets preference law and regulations it says that the vet points are added to the vets test scores. For years these points have been added at the end. OPM introduced a novel way to use points get vets past a cut off, remove points and then add them back in. Some folks who were cut at phase two might have a beef with this. Whether it is right or wrong is not for me to say.
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Post by hopefalj on Oct 15, 2013 13:18:08 GMT -5
If they are grading as we go and only a handful are going/went this week, surely it won't take too long to get results out. Most should already be done, I would think. Of course I'm basing this all on logic, and we know there is a lacking of logic when it comes to OPM and this process. If they are using ALJs to grade the exams their will be an issue with the grading until the shutdown ends. Unless, they are using retired ALJs in the process. I just think what might have been scores by Thanksgiving will now be scores prior to Christmas. It's just my take on it. I believe the reports here have been that retired ALJs are grading the WDs, but I'm not sure if any of them are going to be excited about giving their time right now for future pay once the shutdown ends. With the reports that recent testing numbers have been smaller than the August and September groups, I think a November/December timeframe is within reason so long as the shutdown doesn't last until that period of time.
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Post by moopigsdad on Oct 15, 2013 13:42:35 GMT -5
I am not a Veteran, but I think Vet points should apply throughout the whole process not just at the end of the process. Part of the issue is Vets should be able to benefit and move up in the entire process due to their service. I have no problem with the issuance of Vet points at all during the whole process. We are all attorneys and we all interpret laws differently depending on the side we advocate for. If you read the vets preference law and regulations it says that the vet points are added to the vets test scores. For years these points have been added at the end. OPM introduced a novel way to use points get vets past a cut off, remove points and then add them back in. Some folks who were cut at phase two might have a beef with this. Whether it is right or wrong is not for me to say. Past practice doesn't always dictate present or future action. Just as with OPM testing this time, it changed to include many different tests not existing in past testing. Hence, things change. The points were not given twice, but once, then withdrawn and then will be re-added. Hence, nobody is receiving a double Vet Preference. I read the OPM rules of Veteran Preference and nowhere does it state the points only have to be added at the final stage.
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Post by ssaogc on Oct 15, 2013 13:49:31 GMT -5
We are all attorneys and we all interpret laws differently depending on the side we advocate for. If you read the vets preference law and regulations it says that the vet points are added to the vets test scores. For years these points have been added at the end. OPM introduced a novel way to use points get vets past a cut off, remove points and then add them back in. Some folks who were cut at phase two might have a beef with this. Whether it is right or wrong is not for me to say. Past practice doesn't always dictate present or future action. Just as with OPM testing this time, it changed to include many different tests not existing in past testing. Hence, things change. The points were not given twice, but once, then withdrawn and then will be re-added. Hence, nobody is receiving a double Vet Preference. I read the OPM rules of Veteran Preference and nowhere does it state the points only have to be added at the final stage. Agreed, see highlight above. I made it to phase three so this whole vet pref does not affect me in any way (unless I make the list and then it is frozen because someone sues for the vets preference implementation.
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Post by 71stretch on Oct 15, 2013 14:43:21 GMT -5
SSA/ODAR is not in control of this process. The NORs come from OPM. OPM has no need to wait until SSA has a hiring plan. SSA was ready to do a big hire when the NORs went out last time; they asked for a cert relatively quickly. But that was then, this is now. There are other agencies involved as well. OPM will get the register in place; who uses it, and when, is up to those agencies. Unless there is litigation that puts an injunction in place, the register will continue to be available to SSA and other agencies, and the administrative appeals/litigation will have whatever results they have. Just making an observation based on past timelines and budget realities. Yea OPM is in charge of register but SSA pays the bill for the testing and they do have a say on the test and i would say that OPM does keep SSA informed. Other Agencies have always been there but they hire very few applicants compared to SSA. Just my POV What "bill for the testing"? Yes, SSA/ODAR participated in the development of the test. But paying for the testing? Yes, there are normally sitting ALJs that are on the SI panels, not so this time after 10/1. ALJs from other agencies have participated in those, too. If SSA is otherwise "paying", then so are the other agencies that hire from the register. I'd like to see some numbers on whether any agency other than OPM (other than paying folks who sit on the SIs) is "paying" for the testing. Did SSA pay the hotel bill at Embassy Suites? I doubt it. Did they pay the OPM staff there? I doubt that too. The testing and scoring so far has been completely under OPM/' contriol. Again, there is NO reason for OPM, an independent agency acting in a process that ONLY it controls (issuing NORs and creating registers) , to wait for some sort of "OK" from SSA before issuing NORs. If you've got one, let's hear it.
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Post by lurker/dibs on Oct 15, 2013 16:04:42 GMT -5
Observer, I agree. This is OPMs party.
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Post by zebra51 on Oct 15, 2013 16:10:26 GMT -5
5 CFR 930.201(d) The Director of OPM, or designee, shall prescribe the examination methodology in the design of each administrative law judge examination. 5 CFR 930.201(e) OPM does not hire administrative law judges for other agencies but has the authority to: (1) Recruit and examine applicants for administrative law judge positions, including developing and administering the administrative law judge examinations under 5 U.S.C. 3301, 3304, 1104(a), and 1302, and Executive Order 10577, as amended, except OPM is not required to use the examination scoring process in 5 CFR 337.101(a) ;
5 CFR 930.203 - Cost of competitive examination. Each agency employing administrative law judges must reimburse OPM for the cost of developing and administering the administrative law judge examination. Each agency is charged a pro rata share of the examination cost, based on the actual number of administrative law judges the agency employs. OPM computes the cost of the examination program on an annual basis and notifies the employing agencies of their respective shares after the calculations are made.
Yep. OPMs party. They control when the NORs come out.
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Post by ssaogc on Oct 15, 2013 16:19:25 GMT -5
Just making an observation based on past timelines and budget realities. Yea OPM is in charge of register but SSA pays the bill for the testing and they do have a say on the test and i would say that OPM does keep SSA informed. Other Agencies have always been there but they hire very few applicants compared to SSA. Just my POV What "bill for the testing"? Yes, SSA/ODAR participated in the development of the test. But paying for the testing? Yes, there are normally sitting ALJs that are on the SI panels, not so this time after 10/1. ALJs from other agencies have participated in those, too. If SSA is otherwise "paying", then so are the other agencies that hire from the register. I'd like to see some numbers on whether any agency other than OPM (other than paying folks who sit on the SIs) is "paying" for the testing. Did SSA pay the hotel bill at Embassy Suites? I doubt it. Did they pay the OPM staff there? I doubt that too. The testing and scoring so far has been completely under OPM/' contriol. Again, there is NO reason for OPM, an independent agency acting in a process that ONLY it controls (issuing NORs and creating registers) , to wait for some sort of "OK" from SSA before issuing NORs. If you've got one, let's hear it. oig.ssa.gov/sites/default/files/audit/full/pdf/A-05-12-22144.pdfSSA is provides the greatest pro-rata share of costs for the ALJ program to OPM via an Inter-agency agreement (page 24 of the report at the link provided above. Yes OPM is an independent agency and yes, they conduct the testing but I believe that SSA, as a major customer, who provides the majority of the funding for the program, has a lot of say--- OPM should want to have a happy customer and be responsive to the needs of their biggest customer. Indeed, if you read the report, SSA has complained about services rendered and whether or not it was getting what they were paying for. I do not purport to have any inside knowledge or expertise in this matter. I base my position based on the report and on the unofficial timeline post on this board. ODAR has pulled a cert from the register within 30 days of the NORs being released. I do not believe that SSA can do all the data calls, planning and logistics this quickly without first coordinating with OPM on some level. Again, just my POV.
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Post by ssaogc on Oct 15, 2013 16:36:03 GMT -5
Agreed, see highlight above. I made it to phase three so this whole vet pref does not affect me in any way (unless I make the list and then it is frozen because someone sues for the vets preference implementation. Point well-taken. People can get creative when their back is against the wall, especially lawyers. Can't imagine waiting until federal litigation is started and resolved in order to get this moving. Hopefully they would fast-track it and it would only take 4-6 years. If you get hired in the first group (maybe even second) you should avoid the litigation delays (if any) at least that is what happened with Adzell 20 years ago.
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