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Post by funkyodar on Mar 21, 2014 22:45:47 GMT -5
Same to you state. Kick some A on the interview and toast the board at training .
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Post by futuressaalj on Mar 21, 2014 22:54:03 GMT -5
OK, I think this thing has grown irrational legs. My agency advertises lots of positions and we get a cert with many folks on it. Many more than three but we HAVE to pick from the top three and if a vet is #1 and the other two are not then we have to pick the vet unless we follow procedures to disqualify them. Forget about disqualifying a 30 percent or higher disabled vet who is #1 on the list and #2 and #3 are non vets--I have seen them return the cert and not make any selection.
Just recently we hired for 1102 contract specialist position and the entire cert--all 22 folks on it were all disabled vets.
So lets say they get a cert for every location with 10 plus people? When a person in the top three gets selected they come off all the other certs that they are on when they are picked. Same thing when they get passed over at three locations--they come off the rest of the certs they are on, they have gotten their consideration.
We are reading way too much into this--yes there will be a cert for every location but there is nothing to say that the cert for every location only comes with three names--that is something we are assuming and I think we are wrong on that. So a cert for each location, many people on it. Folks will move up when a person is selected for a location because that person is then removed from all other certs.
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Post by gary on Mar 21, 2014 22:54:16 GMT -5
StateALJ, I was a trial judge's law clerk for 23 years, before that an appellate judge's law clerk for close to 5 years, and before that a criminal appellate defense lawyer for 3 1/2 years. I'm not sure how significant the litigation experience in that is but I'm on the register.
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Post by MoStateALJ on Mar 21, 2014 23:03:34 GMT -5
StateALJ, I was a trial udge's law clerk for 23 years, before that an appellate judge's law clerk for close to 5 years, and before that a criminal appellate defense lawyer for 3 1/2 years. I'm not sure how significant the litigation experience in that is but I'm on the register. Glad you are on the register! Best of luck to you.
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Post by gary on Mar 21, 2014 23:05:38 GMT -5
Thank you. I'm glad you made it too. Good luck.
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Post by ALJD on Mar 21, 2014 23:29:25 GMT -5
ALJD? The person who forwarded you this e-mail ... was he by any chance wielding a lightsaber and muttering about the dark side? Nope. The person has been credible in the past and the forwarded e-mail has sufficient details to appear legitimate to me.
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Post by 71stretch on Mar 22, 2014 7:51:24 GMT -5
Could the delay since December's status changes be explained by this apparent change in cert procedures? Would SSA be told OPM has a register before we receive our NORS? This is turning into a bizarro version of RISK and I don't know which country my troops are in... Possibly, but there are any number of other possible reasons that have been discussed to death here. And, in the end, it really doesn't matter what caused the delay. The delay, by itself, doesn't matter much once it's over. (and, there was no new register until the NORs came out)
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Post by moopigsdad on Mar 22, 2014 7:56:27 GMT -5
I have it on good authority the SSA has received a certificate from OPM. If you're a hopeful, I'd watch the email over the next couple of days. So maxlaw, not to question your post or sources which I am sure are trustworthy, does ALJD's post change your thinking on your post at all? Do you have any intel on whether they asked for one cert or many? Any additional information would be appreciated. (Edited to avoid any inkling that I was somehow being difficult or hard on maxlaw.)
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Post by privateatty on Mar 22, 2014 8:37:12 GMT -5
Now that I am sipping my coffee and properly doing the laundry I have to agree with ALJD--its going to change things. Bartleby and I were describing how OCALJ worked a list in 2008-2010 to choose ALJs. If OPM is going to require OCALJ to get a cert for each city, then it would appear at first blush (and I think I need to "talk" to y'all) that if they had a Cert city like Tuscon that was really popular and they had 150 of the 900 on the Register with that on their OCALJ GAL, either as "wide opens" or even just Tuscon, that the high scorers are the ones who will rule. I mean they can only consider three--and they have to be high scorers. I think that a few of the posters above have it right--Puzzle Palace has been three striking too many qualified applicants for too long. Too many of them have ended up being ALJs in other agencies like me and even some have been in a position to complain to OPM about it. Its a touchy subject on this Board and within the ALJ Corps because Judges have been on both edges of that sword. OCALJ knows darn well that their methodology in the past resulted in folks with 40's and 50's getting an offer and at least a couple of hundred applicants with scores twenty or thirty points above never get picked and now, I am truly sad to say, are extinguished. Is that the way OPM envisioned that their Rules are to be implemented? No, I think OPM is putting the Puzzle Palace in a box and its been a long time coming. Remember someone will sue or get the ultimate list or lists from OCALJ and you can bet that the last thing the latter wants is to lose that suit. I have been posting Pixie's Mantra that "scores don't matter". With ALJD's post, they do. How else could we interpret it?
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Post by privateatty on Mar 22, 2014 8:44:22 GMT -5
I have it on good authority the SSA has received a certificate from OPM. If you're a hopeful, I'd watch the email over the next couple of days. So maxlaw does ALJD's post change your post at all? Did they ask for one cert or many? Any additional information would be appreciated. Be easy on maxlaw. This is new for all of us and its a bit confusing. In the past OCALJ and every agency requested a Certificate of Eligibles, the link having been posted. In a small Agency in the past it could be one slot in DC that they couldn't fill through a sitting ALJ. They might get eight or ten names, all high scorers who had DC on their OPM GAL.
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Post by moopigsdad on Mar 22, 2014 8:53:26 GMT -5
Agencies of the federal government have been skirting the rules forever, when it suits them. Open the newspaper, watch CNN, look at the internet, etc. The law school maxim of "the King can do no wrong" still applies in many federal court decisions. While, occasionally a lawsuit favors the plaintiff over the federal government, those do not happen frequently. I still say federal agencies end up doing what they want to do to achieve their desired objectives, no matter any obstacles put in their place.
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Post by sealaw90 on Mar 22, 2014 8:56:31 GMT -5
Thanks Tiger, this is a very interesting form. In the two agencies I have worked in, I was not involved in the process of asking for a cert, but I have been involved in the interview and selection side of the process. A certificate for a position is NOT limited to 3 people, unless there were only 3 eligible people that can be considered (applied for the job or passed the exam process.)
From what my memory recalls, a certificate will have all the highest scoring 10 point eligible listed in the order of score and type of 10 point eligibility. Then it will have all the 5 point vets in order of score. Then it will have highest scoring non-vets.
Futuressaalj has it right. Now perhaps in his agency, like mine, we may have a cert that lists 22 people. We choose to interview as many as we wanted, but we HAD to interview the top 3 candidates, at least, because they were all 10 point vets. And woe to the agency who doesn't select one of those vets. Yes, the agency can reject the entire cert, but what a waste of time! I am sure it happens though.
Here's a thought. SSA requests a cert for each city they deem to be 'urgent' vacancies they need to fill. That could be 20, 30 or 60 ODARs. Although it would slow up the process by having 2 rounds of interviews (first the urgent cities they need to fill, then the rest of the cities), it may enable them to move through the list and reach more folks, i.e., insiders.
Here's another thought, I do agree with other posters here that OPM has placed SSA in somewhat of a box in that they MUST seriously consider the high scoring 10 point vets for many cities because that is going to be the only folks listed on a certificate for several cities. Therefore, high scores will matter, and 10 pointers will get selected. Once those positions in those cities are filled, the certificates will have high scoring 5 point vets and non-vets. Finally, the least urgent cities that need a new ALJ will begin to see certs with middle scoring non-vets - that is if SSA waits to request those cities. We're talking a month or two between their first request of cities and their next request. If SSA has already requested a cert for several cities, interview selections are not far off, and it still leaves them the early summer to have a second set of interviews.
Still, it looks like the game has changed a little, but for high scoring vets, they have a better chance. If they are also an insider - bonus!!
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Post by hopefalj on Mar 22, 2014 9:10:38 GMT -5
I'm curious to see how this actually affects the hiring process. ODAR can still use three striking as liberally as ever as it is three bona fide considerations on one or many certs. OPM will either have to provide fodder/filler as they always have, or there will be an extremely slow hiring process due to impracticalities. I don't see how this will slow three striking beyond its previous use. SSA has always had candidates broken down into the three highest scorers in each city. They've always had to select from the three highest scorers for a city. They've never been able to select a non-vet over a vet.
I would like to have someone explain what the ramifications are. If OPM only sends the three highest scores for each city, it's possible the same three names are listed for every opening in a 90-100 city cert. that would bog down the process immensely.
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Post by privateatty on Mar 22, 2014 9:14:04 GMT -5
Be easy on maxlaw. This is new for all of us and its a bit confusing. In the past OCALJ and every agency requested a Certificate of Eligibles, the link having been posted. In a small Agency in the past it could be one slot in DC that they couldn't fill through a sitting ALJ. They might get eight or ten names, all high scorers who had DC on their OPM GAL. Privateatty I was not being hard on maxlaw, but trying to clarify his information. If I was attempting to be hard on him he would know it. It's a shame so many people have a tendency to read their own hidden meanings into someone else's post. Easy/hard. Follow up questions/argumentative. I'm not picking on you as you are a solid stalwart of this Board--heck we all know that. This great thirst for knowledge and information is more than understandable. Its been over four years now and I still carry it--why I can only guess. But there is less than a dozen of us (and I use that loosely because myself and one other ALJ are not ODAR) out there and we all have to try to figure this all out. The best way to do that IMHO is to post and analyze. We may even want to come back to this after a week or more talking about this with our similiarly situated.
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Post by moopigsdad on Mar 22, 2014 9:20:16 GMT -5
I think that a few of the posters above have it right--Puzzle Palace has been three striking too many qualified applicants for too long. Too many of them have ended up being ALJs in other agencies like me and even some have been in a position to complain to OPM about it. Its a touchy subject on this Board and within the ALJ Corps because Judges have been on both edges of that sword. OCALJ knows darn well that their methodology in the past resulted in folks with 40's and 50's getting an offer and at least a couple of hundred applicants with scores twenty or thirty points above never get picked and now, I am truly sad to say, are extinguished. Is that the way OPM envisioned that their Rules are to be implemented? No, I think OPM is putting the Puzzle Palace in a box and its been a long time coming. Remember someone will sue or get the ultimate list or lists from OCALJ and you can bet that the last thing the latter wants is to lose that suit. I have been posting Pixie's Mantra that "scores don't matter". With ALJD's post, they do. How else could we interpret it? As a 30%-10 point Gulf War vet with a high score (thanks to the 10 points) and 85 cities on my GAL, I hope so. I generally do very well in interviews and hope that I can pull a Highly Recommended as to avoid the thoughts of being jacked over by ODAR, but I have said before there seems to be plenty of Vets as ALJs, so I don’t think it’s that bad. But good luck to all as ALJ seems to be a great job for home/family life and job satisfaction. Tigerlaw I think you are correct. It still will come down to the SSA interview. Thanks for your service and sacrifice and I hope you achieve your objective. Good luck fellow Board member.
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Post by funkyodar on Mar 22, 2014 9:35:24 GMT -5
I think that a few of the posters above have it right--Puzzle Palace has been three striking too many qualified applicants for too long. Too many of them have ended up being ALJs in other agencies like me and even some have been in a position to complain to OPM about it. Its a touchy subject on this Board and within the ALJ Corps because Judges have been on both edges of that sword. OCALJ knows darn well that their methodology in the past resulted in folks with 40's and 50's getting an offer and at least a couple of hundred applicants with scores twenty or thirty points above never get picked and now, I am truly sad to say, are extinguished. Is that the way OPM envisioned that their Rules are to be implemented? No, I think OPM is putting the Puzzle Palace in a box and its been a long time coming. Remember someone will sue or get the ultimate list or lists from OCALJ and you can bet that the last thing the latter wants is to lose that suit. I have been posting Pixie's Mantra that "scores don't matter". With ALJD's post, they do. How else could we interpret it? As a 30%-10 point Gulf War vet with a high score (thanks to the 10 points) and 85 cities on my GAL, I hope so. I generally do very well in interviews and hope that I can pull a Highly Recommended as to avoid the thoughts of being jacked over by ODAR, but I have said before there seems to be plenty of Vets as ALJs, so I don’t think it’s that bad. But good luck to all as ALJ seems to be a great job for home/family life and job satisfaction. Based on current polling, only about 7% are 10 pointers. Considering the gal polling reveals 20% of the reg has 3 or fewer cities and another 24% have 3 to 20 cities...I'd bet your score and gal will pretty much make you golden Tiger, even if you just get "recommended" onthe interview.
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Post by grandparay1 on Mar 22, 2014 9:40:54 GMT -5
This may sound crazy. There was info on this board that ODAR had received a cert within days of the NOR's. From what I remember about other cert requests, it takes maybe a week or more for OPM to deliver a cert (even for a small cert) after the request. There was mention (although from what has now been deemed an unreliabel source) that ODAR could be asking for a cert from the old register. If ODAR had advanced info regarding the rules to be applied to the new register, is it possible that they decided to aske for one more cert from the old register (holding their noses of course), to try one more time to make it a little easier (and maybe get some that will not be on the new register)?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2014 9:42:43 GMT -5
This great thirst for knowledge and information is more than understandable. Its been over four years now and I still carry it--why I can only guess. But there is less than a dozen of us (and I use that loosely because myself and one other ALJ are not ODAR) out there and we all have to try to figure this all out. The best way to do that IMHO is to post and analyze. We may even want to come back to this after a week or more talking about this with our similiarly situated. Just an aside, here. As someone with that "thirst for knowledge and information," many thanks to the dozen (or fewer) of you ALJs, and also to the other insiders, who're so active on this board. Keeping up with all the posts is sometimes like drinking out of a firehose, but it's way better than being parched. So, thanks, all.
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Post by chinook on Mar 22, 2014 9:53:29 GMT -5
I have no idea what the new process means but I do think it is a significant change. I also think this was intentional on the part of OPM.
Other agencies have been complaining to OPM about candidates without litigation experience. Now SSA ALJs without litigation experience are starting to seek transfer to other agencies. (My agency has seen at least one and I have heard of others.) I think the changes in the exam are to accommodate the concerns about this.
The change in the cert process appears to be an effort to level the playing field between SSA and other agencies. One complaint was that SSA is getting a ton of subject matter experience but other agencies are prohibited from doing that. Remember OPM monitors this board. They have seen the complaints about SSA putting vets up against each other to 3-strike and keep a higher number of vets out. This in a violation of at least the spirit of veterans preference. (This happens in government more than people think but less so than when Vietnam Vets were the largest group of veterans.)
I think all the changes this time are an effort to correct what OPM and many outside SSA perceive as problems with the system. Every agency pays a fee to OPM and other agencies did not see they were getting any return for their dollar.
We will see how this plays out over the next few weeks.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2014 9:57:04 GMT -5
Based on current polling, only about 7% are 10 pointers. Considering the gal polling reveals 20% of the reg has 3 or fewer cities and another 24% have 3 to 20 cities...I'd bet your score and gal will pretty much make you golden Tiger, even if you just get "recommended" onthe interview.
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Thanks Funky, I hope so, this has been a long process and everybody that has been on this board seems great for the job, but I wouldn't go through this again if I don't get there this time.
Private practice is tough, but it's not so bad as to do this over in the next register if I'm 3-struck this register.
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