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Post by funkyodar on Mar 19, 2014 17:19:03 GMT -5
Good luck everyone. Because everyone needs it. Truer words hath ne'er been posted. Thanks private.
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Post by alj on Mar 19, 2014 19:23:30 GMT -5
Funkster, the raw stats don't tell the whole story, and TPTB know it. They will rely heavily on the recommendation of the HOCALJ and the HOD. They will want to know if the attorney gets along with others in the office, if there are any disciplinary problems in the past, any trouble with leave, adherence to time and attendance, and most importantly, how productive the attorney is, and his/her ability to manage the caseload. Being a team player is a big plus here; the HOCALJ and the HOD know these intangibles that just don't show up on the reports.
By the time the references are checked, and the background investigation completed, the hiring authority will have a good picture of what type of judge the attorney advisor/senior attorney will be. A much clearer picture than of someone from the outside. Is there any surprise that insiders are favored--assuming they vet out?
I have been involved in this process for a long time, and am always truthful about the candidate under consideration. I have seen some very good staff attorneys appointed, and have seen some of the not so good fall by the wayside. So far, and knock on wood, all of the ones I have recommended have done well as judges. I hope you get your chance and that you do well in the job.
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Post by funkyodar on Mar 19, 2014 19:28:30 GMT -5
Thanks alj. Oustanding perspective.
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Post by funkyodar on Apr 1, 2014 11:20:18 GMT -5
Since starting at odar in 09, I've seen quite a few of our senior and supervisory attorneys make alj. All were sent to other offices despite the fact we had openings and they wouldn't need relo if assigned to us (several eventually transferred back, but many have transferred again or taken hocalj positions in other offices).
I know the general consensus is "odar doesn't care where you are or where you really want." But, I wonder...
I know that there is a mangement theory (adhered to in some private sector large enterprises and some rare military instances) that holds its a bad idea to promote someone to a higher prestige position within the same area where they were once on the same level as those they are now "over." It stems from the idea its hard for staff to show proper respect and whatnot to the position if they were once on the same level as the person now in that position.
I personally don't think its a valid theory. And, there isn't a whole lot of "prestige" or deference issues with the alj job. Noone answers to you and there isn't a whole lot of "your honoring" within the office.
But, anyone think odar takes that into consideration? Is it a given you won't get the gig in your current office? Not even a chance regardless of openings there, gal etc?
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Post by bartleby on Apr 1, 2014 11:39:26 GMT -5
Funky, I think you are right. That has been my experience and those around me. Perhaps it has something to do with having three local attorneys vouch for one during the references? I don't know. I do know that I was treated better away from home than back home and that seems to be the consensus also. Writers tend to use first name back home and always used Judge.. away from home. Staff seems a lot more relaxed when dealing with me back home. Ask for seomthing and they get around to it. A new Judge comes in and they can't do enough for them.. maybe it just the Bart?? Nahhhhh.
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Post by hopefalj on Apr 1, 2014 11:40:59 GMT -5
Since starting at odar in 09, I've seen quite a few of our senior and supervisory attorneys make alj. All were sent to other offices despite the fact we had openings and they wouldn't need relo if assigned to us (several eventually transferred back, but many have transferred again or taken hocalj positions in other offices). I know the general consensus is "odar doesn't care where you are or where you really want." But, I wonder... I know that there is a mangement theory (adhered to in some private sector large enterprises and some rare military instances) that holds its a bad idea to promote someone to a higher prestige position within the same area where they were once on the same level as those they are now "over." It stems from the idea its hard for staff to show proper respect and whatnot to the position if they were once on the same level as the person now in that position. I personally don't think its a valid theory. And, there isn't a whole lot of "prestige" or deference issues with the alj job. Noone answers to you and there isn't a whole lot of "your honoring" within the office. But, anyone think odar takes that into consideration? Is it a given you won't get the gig in your current office? Not even a chance regardless of openings there, gal etc? I don't think it's verboten, but it's just generally unlikely if you have a wide GAL. I believe a poster named aa or aaa actually received their appointment in their hearing office way back when, but it's obviously a rarity.
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Post by mamaru on Apr 1, 2014 14:06:46 GMT -5
Two judges in my office were appointed from GS slots in our office off the last cert. A third GS was shipped off at the same time a judge was brought in from elsewhere. We assumed it was because our guy was willing to go from West Crapland to East Crapland and the new guy was only willing to go to West Crapland. I don't think there is an inherent bias against keeping someone in place and promoting them. Not like they supervise anybody.
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Post by chessparent on Apr 1, 2014 14:19:03 GMT -5
Two judges in my office were appointed from GS slots in our office off the last cert. A third GS was shipped off at the same time a judge was brought in from elsewhere. We assumed it was because our guy was willing to go from West Crapland to East Crapland and the new guy was only willing to go to West Crapland. I don't think there is an inherent bias against keeping someone in place and promoting them. Not like they supervise anybody. Interesting. I know only one individual who received an initial ALJ offer to her home office where she had formerly worked as a AA.
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Post by privateatty on Apr 1, 2014 19:55:05 GMT -5
ODAR is so different from every other Agency that conclusions drawn here don't apply to those who choose to leave and try to go back from whence they came. If you practicedt in the SEC or NLRB or NTSB all your professional life at OGC and have the good fortune to get hired by ODAR, you may have to face the issue of what your hiring as an ALJ may have upon a relatively small office. And that effect is usually acute jealousy, dressed up as any one of a hundred bs excuses as to what any "problem" is.
The Funkster talks about lack of respect and that is certainly an issue, but that truth hides an uglier truth. I have met Judges who have done what I have outlined here and they have had their own issues that they may not have been able to air to anyone, for to do so would seem to be ungrateful or to be disruptive.
However, that Judge has to look that atty in the eye in their courtroom, those same eyes that they used to meet at lunch when they were both attys and friends.
If you are in OGC and in a small agency and read this and scoff, fine. I wouldn't blame you and I'm sure you are right when you say you haven't seen this. But think about it, would you?
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Post by redryder on Apr 2, 2014 8:27:36 GMT -5
i was one of the few whose relocation involved moving about 50 feet from one office to another. I know mine was the result of a high NOR that put in me in the high 3 for my office. But once the higher NORs are disposed of and these are bunches of candidates with the same scores, where you go is very random. One factor is your placement on the certificate.
Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I was in management, the candidates for various jobs in the field office were listed alphabetically on certificates when they had the same scores. Then someone realized this meant that the candidates at the end of the alphabet were never making the high 3. That process was changed and the names for candidates with the same score were posted in random order.
I suspect the same is true of the ALJ certificates prepared by OPM. So while you may make the cert for your "home" office, you may not be in the high 3 and get considered for it.
And how is it staying at home? I asked the staff to refer to me as "judge" if I was with other judges or in a hearing. Any other time, I didn't care what they called me. But to my surprise, they refer to me as "judge" most of the time and don't treat me any differently from the other judges. As for the allocation of resources, I get my fair share and sometimes more. It doesn't hurt that I didn't forget the skills I acquired in the past. And it makes the workload easier for the support staff, especially the techs.
Should anyone get selected for this job, I suggest you read some management books. No, you are not supervising anyone, unless you are in a NHC. But there are some things that I have learned that proved quite useful in making this a more pleasant experience. As an ALJ, you are the highest paid person in the office. If you show some leadership in the management of your caseload, you will be rewarded. My personal guide in leadership is the inverted pyramid. The staff are not there to work for me. I am there to work with the staff and make their jobs easier. How? By giving my calendar for months in advance and sticking to it as much as possible. By posting on CPMS all the info that I can including the disposition characteristics, the fee agreement info, the status info and the hearing dispostion info. By using the To-Do to relay information to techs so any available tech can pick it up versus an email to a specific tech. And by showing my appreciation to them with treats. While an "insider" has an early advantage with knowledge of some of these things, these are things an "outsider" can learn, if he/she so chooses.
I know that some of the results I have experienced are peculiar to the personality of my office. But what have you got to lose by trying? Nothing. And what will you gain if successful? A lot happier worklife.
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Post by funkyodar on Apr 2, 2014 8:37:19 GMT -5
Awesome post red. Thanks.
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Post by Ace Midnight on Apr 2, 2014 9:08:29 GMT -5
Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I was in management, the candidates for various jobs in the field office were listed alphabetically on certificates when they had the same scores. Then someone realized this meant that the candidates at the end of the alphabet were never making the high 3. That process was changed and the names for candidates with the same score were posted in random order. Judge - I think the resolution of the scores out to 2 decimal places will obviate a lot of this - of course there could still be ties, but I expect not nearly as common. I have always viewed leadership like this as well. While I may have to make some of the tough decisions, I try to do that to make the team and the mission more successful. You find that out by communicating with the staff, "What am I/we doing wrong?", "How can we do this better or more efficiently?", "Are there resources I can get for us that will make our job easier?" - things like this are often overlooked in the strive to respond to higher directive and slog through a mission, but they are keys to effective leadership.
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Post by Orly on Apr 2, 2014 12:00:44 GMT -5
But there are some things that I have learned that proved quite useful in making this a more pleasant experience. As an ALJ, you are the highest paid person in the office. If you show some leadership in the management of your caseload, you will be rewarded. My personal guide in leadership is the inverted pyramid. The staff are not there to work for me. I am there to work with the staff and make their jobs easier. How? By giving my calendar for months in advance and sticking to it as much as possible. By posting on CPMS all the info that I can including the disposition characteristics, the fee agreement info, the status info and the hearing dispostion info. By using the To-Do to relay information to techs so any available tech can pick it up versus an email to a specific tech. And by showing my appreciation to them with treats. While an "insider" has an early advantage with knowledge of some of these things, these are things an "outsider" can learn, if he/she so chooses. I know that some of the results I have experienced are peculiar to the personality of my office. But what have you got to lose by trying? Nothing. And what will you gain if successful? A lot happier worklife. Sage words indeed. While I had to move across the country for my ALJ position as an outsider, my experience is very similar to yours. I adapted and learned the system like you noted, picked up best practices from successful judges in my office, and always treated the staff with respect and courtesy. In a way, I think an ALJ in a hearing office is similiar to a pilot in a squadron. Sure you are the tip of the spear and absolutely needed to make the mission happen. But without all the people that support you behind the scenes, your jet is never leaving the hanger. So be nice to all the support staff, both attorneys and non-attorneys.
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Post by funkyodar on Apr 2, 2014 15:25:56 GMT -5
I just had a conversation with a fellow odarite. A friend from a different office that was cut after the online part. He is working on his appeal.
Please don't take this as any reignition of the outsider v insider fire, my neutrality in that war has been well established in other posts. But, the new process leading to much fewer insiders even on the register sucks.
When a person takes a job, the list of considerations is generally universal. While some may list salary first, others benefits or quality of life or working environment, all those factors come to play to some degree. Included in that is upward mobility.
While it may not be as big a deal to some as to others, its definitely a concern. When someone takes an AA job with odar they know its a grind, there is no excitement and its a high burnout type gig given the neverending tide of hearing requests and dispositions. Being a gov job, the security is excellent and the benefits are great. The salary isn't private sector caliber, but neither is the stress. The trade off generally works, if you go into with your eyes open.
The one area that's deficient without much trade off is advancement. Someone who has taken an AA job, dedicated their career to public service and done very well in meeting all expectations ought to have at least a chance at advancement. You don't get raises for superior work and bonuses and awards can't come close to matching private sector incentives. You should at least be able to dream of moving up a rung.
As an AA, you top out at GS 12. And you get there pretty quick (maybe not the top step of that level but to that level). Advancement opportunities are limited to three options. You can apply for a group sup, but those are few and far between and not everyone wants management jobs. Perhaps you could make senior attorney, but those appear to be even more rare and with the adjudication authority curtailed many wonder if they will even fill vacant senior slots.
The one gig that's the hope is alj. Once there you get a good pay bump, get more interesting responsibilities and have further advancement chances to hocalj, regional or national positions. But the new process focus on litigation experience means that door is essentially closed to most that have done nothing but administrative work their entire career.
I realize the process is competitive and I am very thankful I got the litigation experience and made it to the register. But, I care more than just about my own personal aspirations. I also want to see odar get and keep the best public servants they can. Right now, morale among my colleagues is the lowest I've seen it.
Perhaps the "insider advantage" is real and those like me that got through will benefit from fewer other insiders in competition. But, I hope odar can figure a way to remedy this deficiency. Otherwise all the new aljs will find their cases are written by folks that have no incentive to do more than the minimum. Attorneys with no ambition or reason to go above and beyond. Think odar can attract and retain qauality in that situation?
Good luck on your appeals folks.
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Post by futuressaalj on Apr 2, 2014 15:53:05 GMT -5
Funky it sounds like your friend was done in by the SJT. As an AA he should have written a good writing sample and as far as the EA we have folks on the register who rated themselves a one in experience. For the SJT you either had the right answers or not. There were many folks who had significant lit experience that got cut at both phase one and two so I believe the selection process was just as brutal on outsiders as it was for insiders.
What really changed in my opinion is that the filing was unlimited. In the past insiders had the advantage and took up many of the available slots and as such made a good percentage of the register.
In the past the outsiders were left looking in by the time they heard filing was open
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Post by funkyodar on Apr 2, 2014 16:04:18 GMT -5
That makes sense future. No doubt the long app period with no cut off amount led to more outsiders finding the announcement and applying. Andthat's a good thing. The more candidates the better to find the right ones.
He may have been low on the sjt. Thats certainly possible. He at least made it to that test, the vast majority of insiders didn't.
I know there are a few examples in the polling and in posts of some on the register that rated themselves low on the EA. That number appears low though. In contrast to your theory, I tend to think someone with a 2 or lower on the EA must have knocked the top off the sjt and writing sample. The one board convo I've had with someone on the reg that had given themselves a 2 or lower mentioned he had been a state alj for years. I expect that even without "litigation" the sjt was a breeze for him.
Whatever the score was to get you into the higher scored subgroup at that level, I'm guessing those with 4 and 5 level lit could do worse on the other 2 parts and still make it. Whereas someone with nothing but admin experience needed to ace or nearly ace the other parts. Some did, most didn't.
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Post by moopigsdad on Apr 2, 2014 16:29:29 GMT -5
Let's leave insider versus outsider out of this. Funky you have a bias to your fellow SSA friends and I understand that completely. I just think what this Register ended up with is the best of the best of attorneys. Were some cut by error? Probably and they will win appeals. However, insider versus outsider has nothing to do with finding the best people available. Just because you work for SSA doesn't mean you will be an outstanding ALJ. You ending up on the the Register funky proves your skill and ability.
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Post by futuressaalj on Apr 2, 2014 16:30:33 GMT -5
Makes a lot of sense if u rated yourself low on The EA you must have had an added burden on the sjt to make up for the lesser point values in the other portion of the component
It was incredible to hear how many state aljs and long time litigators got cut too, not just AAs.
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Post by funkyodar on Apr 2, 2014 17:15:10 GMT -5
I agree, mpd, it was a tough process all around and I believe it found a batch of great candidates.
And I certainly don't believe that working at odar as an AA means one would make a good alj. No more than working in litigation or as a claimant rep guarantees success.
And, again, I'm not implying that an insider would be better or is more deserving than an outsider.
In fact, my point is on tangential to hiring aljs at all. Its about hiring and keeping good AAs.
There is no question the new process, both thru the app opening period and its lit experience focus, worked whether by design or as a secondary consequence significantly cut the number of insiders that made the reg. I don't care if, from an alj hiring perspective, you think that's good bad or indifferent.
There is no qauestion, however, that the new process has limited the advancement opportunities that were once in play for AAs of odar and other agencies.
When advancement opportunities are cut, morale of existing employees plummets and the caliber of new employees goes down.
Because I want odar to do the best job It can for the public, I want it to hire the best judges. But judges are only as good as their staff. Lets see how much we (hopefully) newbies enjoy the job when we have to rewrite every decision because the caliber attorneys odar draws are the equivalent of dmv personnel. There are already some of those in every office. It will only get worse if people start to think they have no shot at advancement.
Insider or outsider that can't see that, or thinks it doesn't matter...well, you are in for a real cruel wake up.
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Post by privateatty on Apr 2, 2014 17:18:59 GMT -5
I just had a conversation with a fellow odarite. A friend from a different office that was cut after the online part. He is working on his appeal. Please don't take this as any reignition of the outsider v insider fire, my neutrality in that war has been well established in other posts. But, the new process leading to much fewer insiders even on the register sucks. When a person takes a job, the list of considerations is generally universal. While some may list salary first, others benefits or quality of life or working environment, all those factors come to play to some degree. Included in that is upward mobility. While it may not be as big a deal to some as to others, its definitely a concern. When someone takes an AA job with odar they know its a grind, there is no excitement and its a high burnout type gig given the neverending tide of hearing requests and dispositions. Being a gov job, the security is excellent and the benefits are great. The salary isn't private sector caliber, but neither is the stress. The trade off generally works, if you go into with your eyes open. The one area that's deficient without much trade off is advancement. Someone who has taken an AA job, dedicated their career to public service and done very well in meeting all expectations ought to have at least a chance at advancement. You don't get raises for superior work and bonuses and awards can't come close to matching private sector incentives. You should at least be able to dream of moving up a rung. As an AA, you top out at GS 12. And you get there pretty quick (maybe not the top step of that level but to that level). Advancement opportunities are limited to three options. You can apply for a group sup, but those are few and far between and not everyone wants management jobs. Perhaps you could make senior attorney, but those appear to be even more rare and with the adjudication authority curtailed many wonder if they will even fill vacant senior slots. The one gig that's the hope is alj. Once there you get a good pay bump, get more interesting responsibilities and have further advancement chances to hocalj, regional or national positions. But the new process focus on litigation experience means that door is essentially closed to most that have done nothing but administrative work their entire career. I realize the process is competitive and I am very thankful I got the litigation experience and made it to the register. But, I care more than just about my own personal aspirations. I also want to see odar get and keep the best public servants they can. Right now, morale among my colleagues is the lowest I've seen it. Perhaps the "insider advantage" is real and those like me that got through will benefit from fewer other insiders in competition. But, I hope odar can figure a way to remedy this deficiency. Otherwise all the new aljs will find their cases are written by folks that have no incentive to do more than the minimum. Attorneys with no ambition or reason to go above and beyond. Think odar can attract and retain qauality in that situation? Good luck on your appeals folks. I liked your post. But I don't agree with it. If you have only been an AA, your are not qualified to be a federal ALJ. Its not all about ODAR, my friend. Its about doing the job as an adjudicator. You can't learn what is REALLY evidence until you have tried cases. Surely those who have been in court and tried cases know this. I know you do. Now I know that you are going to say that the rules of evidence don't apply in a ODAR hearing and you are right. But still you have to know what is leading and why and what is a direct exam and proper response and why and what are bs medical reports and why to evaluate all of it. And its not all book learning--what I am talking about is metaphysical--learning to ride the bike of being a true litigator so you can be a true jurist. Disagree fine, but the truth is most ALJs agree with me and that's why the Corps convinced OPM to change their requirements back again. Funkster, your friends need to be seasoned like you.
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