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Post by prescient on Jun 16, 2014 21:27:40 GMT -5
hmm. Despite the wealth of knowledge that has been shared on this board, I can see how it would still be hard for someone from the outside to know exactly what they're getting into with this job. If you can translate 100s to 1000s of pages of medical/school records into a logical RFC quickly, you'll like this job. If you have a high tolerance for high volume, monotonous work, and can type extremely fast, you'll excel. It can't be emphasized enough that the quality of the office's management, writers, and support staff will make an enormous difference in your quality of life. and of course, if you end up in an office where the case files are small.. eureka!
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Post by funkyodar on Jun 16, 2014 21:36:31 GMT -5
I guess you are right Highlander. There is no accounting for the differences in people's perspectives and priorities. I just cant grasp the thought process though. There are people that went to the effort of applying, saw hundreds fall at the intial level, did the online tests, saw hundreds more fall, paid their own travel expenses and went thru 2 days of hell in DC, saw even more fall, made the first cert, went back to DC on the gov dime for another stressful interview and just now, with offers around the corner think "you know, i really dont know what i am applying for or whether i really want it"? Short of some major life change that essentially preempts taking the gig, i just cant see it. But thats just me.
if its fear of getting a city you dont want....well, sorry but i have no sympathy there at all. If you are sitting here on this cert having just interviewed and you have a fear of the upcoming offer being for some place you wouldnt go, thats entirely on you. Nobody forced you to include Harligen on your Gal. You could have dropped it when you made the cert. If you didnt and decided to just treat it like a game and felt leaving a place you really wouldnt accept on your list bettered your chances....live with your choice. You certified not once but twice you would go there. So go or turn it down and dont expect anyone to feel bad when you never get a second offer. Again, thats just me.
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Post by Radoy Knuf on Jun 16, 2014 21:39:36 GMT -5
just my own generally worthless opinion. which is exactly the kind of thing this board could use more of
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Post by Highlander on Jun 16, 2014 21:48:58 GMT -5
Funky, remember the other applicant the job falls to when someone declines could be you:)
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Post by funkyodar on Jun 16, 2014 21:49:28 GMT -5
Funky, remember the other applicant the job falls to when someone declines could be you:) Excellent point
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Post by Radoy Knuf on Jun 16, 2014 21:53:41 GMT -5
Funky, remember the other applicant the job falls to when someone declines could be you:) Excellent point Or it could be me, and it could be a job in the same office Funky gets hired in, and we might even get to be roomies . . . . . .if only . . . Of course, I'd have to accept the offer first, and no estoy interesado en trabajar para el ssa . . .
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Post by cougarfan on Jun 16, 2014 21:53:42 GMT -5
All I can do is share my perspective. My wife and I were actually talking about this just the other day. I come from a private practice background where I spend about 12 years as a solo practitioner or a partner in a 3-4 attorney firm, and then the last two years were spent as an associate for a large insurance defense firm. It was fairly standard for me to work 50-60 hours per week. When the offer came it had been 4 years since I had applied, I had almost forgotten. I was tired of private practice and we took the job offer without a second thought. We moved our family (including three children from 5th grade through 10th grade) from the Rocky Mountain West to the upper Mid-West. And we just finished moving back to the Rocky Mountain West for our first assignment, with our children now spread from 7th - 12th grade.
When we talked about whether the experience had been worth it we each agreed that we would, without a doubt, do it again. From a work perspective I have been blessed to have two terrific HOCALs, I will let you know about the third one in a few months but it looks good so far, and great office environments. My private practice had included representing SS claimants for all but the last two years of my time, so that was a fairly smooth transition. Otherwise, I schedule 25-30 hearings every other week, I generally get to work around 6:30 a.m. and leave around 4:00 or 4:30 p.m. every day; so that's 9- 91/2 hours per day, or 45-47 1/2 hours per week which is I have grown very comfortable with and feels quite easy/manageable compared to what I am used to working; then I take off every Friday of my non-hearing week, using the credit hours I've earned the other 9 days. I have not set foot in the office a single time over weekends or holidays since starting this job. So, from that perspective both my wife and I are thrilled because I am home much more and we have an entire day to ourselves every other Friday. For me, I am much more comfortable being the judge (I've never felt treated as anything else) than I was as an attorney/advocate at the end of my private practice. Let me explain that, I was really tired of trying to spin (is manipulate to strong of a word?) the evidence and I really enjoy being able to look at the facts and simply make a decision based upon the facts in evidence. Finally, when I leave at 4:00 every day or especially on Friday I don't think about my cases, I am free to devote my time to whatever is going on with my family, learning new hobbies, etc., and it is far easier for me to make orchestra concerts, etc.
Now regarding the move to a "foreign land." We moved nearly 2,000 miles from the home we had lived in for about 15 years. I would do it again in a heartbeat. My children were exposed diversity they previously had not experienced, they made friends with people from different cultures, experienced new things, and we grew closer as a family. We just uprooted the children again and we are far less anxious about it this time; in fact, even though we can't get back to our hometown I am considering getting back on the transfer list when we are able to, just have new experiences.
Anyway, long story, from my perspective this job is completely worth it and I would make the same decision(s) again. I recognize that not everyone will reach the same conclusion; but that's my experience and perhaps it will be of some benefit.
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Post by Orly on Jun 16, 2014 23:19:21 GMT -5
Anyway, long story, from my perspective this job is completely worth it and I would make the same decision(s) again. I recognize that not everyone will reach the same conclusion; but that's my experience and perhaps it will be of some benefit. I agree. The last five years had its ups and downs, but never have I regretted my decision to become an ALJ and move 2,500 miles across the country. The freedom to call the evidence the way you see it as opposed to spin things for the almighty billable hours is priceless. I also concur with cougarfan's prospective that the quality of life is excellent as long as you have the right judicial temperment and is efficient in your decision making. Bottom line - long as you have a realistic expectation, lead by example, and don't get black robe fever, you'll really enjoy this job.
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Post by maquereau on Jun 17, 2014 7:22:08 GMT -5
I find the varying perspectives on this job interesting. My experience is that it is not the bed of roses some seem to think it, nor is it the job from hell. For me, more than any other point, the quality of support you receive - and I speak here principally of the writing - is the factor looming largest. If you have great writers, the job probably can be done in close to a 40-hour week. If you have poor writers, you can find yourself editing a decision for hours, sometimes simply rewriting it entirely. The agency has no real metric for determining the sufficiency of a writer's work product; all they want to know is HOW MANY the writer produces. I find that this kind of prioritization runs counter to my approach to the job. So, while the job itself is great (and if I had to do it all again, I'd still take it), some things are simply not within your control. As in all areas of life, luck plays its part.
I would also like to point out that there are people on this board who are great writers working for the agency right now. Not to be invidious about it, but FUNKY is one such - there are others. But you see what happens? The proficient writers have a tendency to leave the writing ranks and become ALJs. You just have to hope that, as they leave, their specters remain to haunt the writing corps.
I wish the very best of luck to those who are about to be selected and I hope that you'll find the job a happy one.
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Post by Gaidin on Jun 17, 2014 9:10:36 GMT -5
After spending a year on this board I have come to a few conclusions about the "move" if I am ever given the opportunity to make a decision. My GAL is to narrow (nothing I can do about that). There are places (none on my GAL) that I wouldn't move for this job but not as many as I originally thought. The factor that you can't figure out (particularly as an outsider) no matter how much Googlefu you possess is what the HOCALJ and others in the office leadership are like and what sort of office environment do they foster. Based on what people on the Board who are ALJs have said some offices sound miserable and some sound great of course maybe the best offices are Harlingen, Middlesboro, and Toledo while the worst is San Diego. You just can't know. If you are on a cert and aren't willing to move to one of the locations you have agreed to go (absent a major life change) I question the seriousness with which you pursued this opportunity. If any of you are still uncertain please feel to put your application on hold until you are serious.
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Post by agilitymom on Jun 17, 2014 10:05:05 GMT -5
Bulldog, moved my children across the country and to other countries from the time they were wee babies until college. My experience has been that it is much harder moving when the kids are older. But if you ask any of my children they would tell you that they wouldn't give up the opportunity to meet new friends and see new places. While the moves were harder once they got older (middle school +) they still rolled with the punches and are all productive, happy adults today. Kids are amazing!
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Post by moopigsdad on Jun 17, 2014 10:14:20 GMT -5
I understand completely bulldog. Some decisions even after doing all the "legwork" to make an informed decision can have dire consequences on your family or you personally. All you can do is hope for the best, if you have to move elsewhere. I think the general consensus of those already in ALJ positions is that normally you can survive until you might be able to move closer back home, if you so choose.
In my situation, my wife or family will not likely come with me should I have to move elsewhere. However, all I can do is hope to be able to transfer back closer to home in the future. In that my home is located in "Crapland" where move ALJs desire to move out than ever want to move in, my chances for a transfer might be better than someone trying to get close to a highly desired location for sitting ALJs. I will think of it as an adventure and speak to my wife and family daily after work and try to get a flight home once a month on the weekends. It will be a sacrifice, but one I think will be worth it in the end. My background as a practitioner has mainly been in Social Security Law, so this is the next logical step and probably last prior to retirement in the future. Good luck bulldog. Besides, anyone who is named bulldog or loves bulldogs is tops in my book.
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Post by sealaw90 on Jun 17, 2014 10:30:30 GMT -5
Bulldog, moved my children across the country and to other countries from the time they were wee babies until college. My experience has been that it is much harder moving when the kids are older. But if you ask any of my children they would tell you that they wouldn't give up the opportunity to meet new friends and see new places. While the moves were harder once they got older (middle school +) they still rolled with the punches and are all productive, happy adults today. Kids are amazing! Same experience here - foreign countries, moves across the country, wherever! The kids adapted as long as the parents were on board with the 'adventure'. Older kids - that's a different story - hence my limited GAL this go round. If, like Gaidin, my few cities do not appear on any cert, I will be an empty nester by the time the new register is being contemplated - I will run the marathon, (hopefully) make the register again, and then every city will be on my GAL!!
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Post by bartleby on Jun 17, 2014 10:37:35 GMT -5
Being an Air Force Brat, I am not so sure about the moving all the time is good for the kids theory. It makes a difference if you grow up in a home and know the local people and area. As a kid, I got kind of tired of having to establish the pecking order at every school neighborhood I went to and there were plenty. It's nice knowing who to call in the area when and if you or your kids need favors... Just saying.
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Post by funkyodar on Jun 17, 2014 10:43:46 GMT -5
I certainly didn't mean to impugn your desire or motivations Bulldog. I understand completely that life has a way of throwing you a curve. As to your current considerations, there are steps you can take. If you now know for sure you cant or won't take a city you left on your list, I would recommend emailing Bob and telling him you have had a change that now makes that city unacceptable. Sure, it might not look that great to do so after submitting what was supposed to be your final list. But I expect the ramifications will be substantially less than getting an offer for that city and turning it down.
If none of the cities are great given your husbands school situation or the needs of your kids at present, you could always request to be suspended till he completes his schooling or the kids are older.
As to getting info on the job, this board and what you can find on Google are probably it. But in reality that's not much different than any other job any of us have ever applied for that wasnt a internal promotion or with some firm we clerked with etc.
As to particular offices....use the resources of this board. You wanna know how good or bad a particular office is? Ask anyone with inside info on that office to pm you. With the wealth of backgrounds on the board surely some insider can give you some insight or some rep that has worked thru that office has some advice. The people here are incredibly helpful despite the competitive nature of the process.
Since others have reported on their own mindset in how they look at the offers/cities I will give mine. Im an insider and would love to stay right where I am. It's on my list and was my first pref. The next cities in my ranking are the small handful on the cert that due to family, friends or past e,perience meant we would move there in a second. The third grouping are those cities that, from my research, are places where my family could keep the rural lifestyle we enjoy but have a good children's hospital within no more than a couple hours away for my special little funkster. My plan for these cities is to go alone for the first 3 weeks with the family coming up on weekends and scouting them thoroughly. Then during the 4 weeks of training the wife and I will make a decision on moving there or trying to play the transfer game. The last grouping of cities are those , mostly bigger metro areas I know my family wouldnt be happy in. In truth I probably should have struck them completely. But, I have the benefit of being in a crapland office that almost always has openings. Further, there is another perpetual opening office 90 minutes away in one direction and another office 75 minutes away in another direction. So, my suspicion is even with transfers being fewer and further between I can get to one of those three in a reasonable time frame. We have experience with me living away for a job and only coming home on the weekend for a little over a year once before and feel we can do it again if necessary.
My situation is unique and I didnt mean for my posts to imply I cant empathize with others in different more restrictive circumstances.
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Post by hopefalj on Jun 17, 2014 10:56:39 GMT -5
It's just difficult for me to be as sure as someone who has worked for the agency for years because I have never worked with or seen an SSA ALJ in action (I have never done SSA work). As helpful as this board has been, it can never give me the kind of perspective and confidence about the job that an insider has. I realize I am lucky to have gotten this far, but it certainly doesn't mean that I have all the information I could possibly want about the job. It has not exactly been a transparent process, especially for those of us who are outsiders. This is completely understandable, particularly when you have seemingly two divergent views on how people view the job ("Greatest job ever!" vs "Micromanagement to the point of absurdity!"). And as an insider, I admit that I don't know exactly what it would be like to have the job or what it's like to work in every office across the country. From my experience, however, if you do your job, you are given an immense amount of freedom. Now, of course, there is a wide array of ideas of what doing your job actually means, but I think you'll find most ALJs on this board tend to feel as though they are generally left alone and not micromanaged.
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Post by luckylady2 on Jun 17, 2014 14:58:14 GMT -5
I got moved around the country a bit as a kid in elementary school and when I was single I moved all over the country for jobs I wanted and, much like I learned to do as a kid, found friends and things I liked to do in each place. When I first started working for the feds there was a running joke about how they couldn't find a place to send me that I didn't like. - So I definitely agree that being on board for a new adventure is the way to go - even if you DON'T change locations.
That said, I'm in the same boat as SeaLaw & Gaidin - I have a kid with only a couple years left in high school and other family limitations, so a very narrow GAL that was not even remotely on the 1st cert. If my area doesn't appear on the next one or the one after that, I'm hoping that they'll allow a refresh at just about the time when I'll be free to move anywhere again.
As far as "no one can understand what the job is like" part - yes and no. I've worked in non-SSA jobs where I had to clear a backlog and churn out repetitive work and work with varying quantities and qualities of assistance - for better or worse, SSA does not have a lock on that part of working for the feds. And as with all jobs, as my Dad used to say, There's a reason they call it a job and a reason they pay you to do it. So it will have its ups and downs and varying office atmospheres.
Much as I can understand the hesitation - or healthy sense of reality at what a move involves - when contemplating a major job change that uproots a perfectly happy family, I do agree with Funky - namely, isn't that what you applied for all those months ago?
Bottom line for me is your future happiness does not depend upon whether you fully appreciate every aspect of the job right now, whether you know every little detail of the city you end up in, whether everything goes exactly according to some plan you laid out or doesn't. For me it all comes back to a quote I've seen attributed to Abraham Lincoln - "Most people are just about as happy as they make up their minds to be."
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Post by luckylady2 on Jun 17, 2014 15:06:08 GMT -5
Oh - and only you can know what you'll be happy with - what will work best for you and your family. As you can see from the replies - there's LOTS of options.
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Post by philliesfan on Jun 17, 2014 18:54:46 GMT -5
One of the things you should keep in mind in considering whether to take the ODAR ALJ job, is can you make a decision. Remember, you will be making hundreds of decisions a year, all of which affect people's lives. It is different from being an advocate for one side of an issue or the other. Most SSA cases are not all that black and white. You do not have an infinite amount of time to cogitate about the result of any particular case. Some are pretty obvious as either favorable or unfavorable, but many are not and those are the toughest ones to decide.
I have been an ODAR ALJ for almost three years and I will admit that I have probably made mistakes both ways, paying cases I probably shouldn't have and denying cases I should have paid, but we are all human and I think I have made the right decision each time. You cannot dwell on each decision. Make it, write your decision writing instructions, and move on to the next case. Unless you are leaving ODAR, there will always be a next case.
Remember also that there is a repetitiousness to the job. After your umpteenth bad back/depression case you could almost testify for the claimant. There are unusual cases. Even given some of the problems alluded to elsewhere, bad management, poor case preparation, poor decision writing sometimes, etc. I still enjoy the job.
BTW, I was an insider when I was offered the job. I moved 900 miles from my home, but got a transfer back in five months. My wife didn't move and my kids were both adults.
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Post by cowboy on Jun 17, 2014 23:52:14 GMT -5
There are many opinions here, but I think Privateatty is the only one who has actually described the job. Let me expand on that.
A friend of mine who recently retired after 30 years as an ALJ described it as "the best job in government for an attorney." I think that's important to consider, for working in private practice and working for the government can be different entities. As an ALJ, you have no clients to answer to day and night. You make the decisions on your cases and how they are written. The staff is generally helpful in nearly every hearing office I have been to (and I've been to quite a few). You decide your schedule and how your day will go. You can plan your leave any way you want. I haven't seen an ALJ ever be forced to work over a holiday. Credit hours permit you to enhance your leave or work at a different schedule than 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week. You can work at home several days a month or week depending on your office, and the general direction of the agency is to make it more of an incentive to work at home and provide more leniency for that. As far as I can tell, there are no consequences to getting a decision "wrong." Sure some of your cases are reviewed, what judge doesn't have review of his/her cases? Is there a consequence to this? No. I have not seen an ALJ disciplined for "erroneous decisions." I think they all take the job seriously and try to make the best decision supported by the evidence. There is no need to "run" for re-election or re-appointment; you have this job for life. That's often why you see ALJs in their 70s and 80s. MCB and others will tell you this is less stressful than any other job they had before. If I were to take a list of the things that cause me stress in my current job, only one or two of them exist for an ALJ. No matter what you see in the press about Congressional hearings, this agency is not going away. Politicians love to grandstand, more so in an election year than any other, but with a 900,000 backlog, this job is secure. I have several supporters that are sitting State Court Judges that when I asked them for a reference and they asked about the job, they inquired as how they could apply. In other words, it was better than their job. And the best part is the service you provide to the claimants. Yes, many will be disappointed in an unfavorable decision, but I have seen many more that were handed an unfavorable decision yet were happy just to have their day in court. The judicial system is one of the best things government can provide to its people.
The hard part of life is the other things that go along with this job. Moving your family. New schools and friends for children. Selling the house and buying another. However, it is important to consider the long term benefits of the job. Eventually, with patience, you can get a transfer to the city of your choice. Some cities take longer than others as they may be more popular. If you want Hawaii or Puerto Rico, you may wait a loooonng time. Frankly, for some, a few years disruption may be worth the benefits of the job that can last you 20, 30 or even 40 years. Is that worth the moving expenses and temporary changes?
That being said, everyone has to make their own personal choice with the benefits and consequences of accepting this position. I don't think it is one that should be taken lightly. This is an incredibly important position that has dramatic impact on many people on a daily basis. In my opinion, there are several ALJs who shouldn't have taken the job and are very unhappy with it. They struggle daily with the problems they perceive interfere with the way they want to do the job. This job, like any other, has rules. Make sure you know them before you take it. If you spend a great time of your day fighting the rules instead of doing the work, this job is likely not for you.
Everyone's opinion is different. You won't be rich from this job, but it has great security and the rewards are beyond what money can offer. Hundreds if not thousands have applied and keep applying. There's a reason for that. I don't know of any other job that has these benefits, rewards, security and this kind of salary. If someone else can point out a better job that matches all this (other than Vice-President), let me know and I'll apply for that job.
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