Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 13:26:17 GMT -5
propmaster - thank you for sharing your opinion. One of the most important functions of the ALJ is making a decision. The difference between ALJs and every other ODAR employee is the decision-making function. ALJs are given the duty to make decisions. We sometimes have SCTs functioning as hearing reporters and they often come away with an appreciation of the responsibility and weight of making a decision.
Almost all of our SCTs are more knowledgeable about ODAR and more experienced than me. I don't think I could do their job nearly as well. We are lucky to employee them. However, it's nice when others see ALJ value as well.
|
|
|
Post by redryder on Jul 30, 2015 13:33:54 GMT -5
Propmaster's comments are quite insightful and do reflect how most judges work (or least how they do in my office). One of the judges once made a comment that captures the decision-making required in this job. As he put it, out of every 100 claims, there are 10-15 that everyone who reviews them will agree should be found disabled and there are 10-15 that everyone agrees should be found no disabled. But it's those 70-80 in between that require judgment and can go either way.
And in doing that, a judge can't have blinders and consider only what a medical source said. The factual basis or underpinnings for any opinion have to be examined and a decision made as to whether or not those records support that opinion. And sometimes, there is no opinion regarding an impairment. For example, DDS doctors considered the claimant's having a heart attack and focus on his ejection fraction and the lack of any objective findings on subsequent exams. But they never address the claimant's other heart condition which can cause the fatigue and lack of stamina the claimant reports. So do I ignore it too? Or do I factor this additional condition in and see what conclusion that leads to?
So you may be looking on line to find out more about a condition and what kinds of symptoms it may cause or the recommended treatment for it. If a doctor gives a "class" rating for someone's heart disease or congestive heart failure or cancer, you will have to know what that means.
At the end of the day, I have to feel that I did the best job I could and made the best decision, even if it is not the most popular. Because as Propmaster said, I have to leave with it.
|
|
|
Post by funkyodar on Jul 30, 2015 14:26:21 GMT -5
Excellent posts Prop and Red. Very well stated.
|
|
|
Post by anotherfed on Jul 30, 2015 14:33:16 GMT -5
Thanks, Prop. Excellent post.
|
|
|
Post by judgedreamer on Jul 31, 2015 8:15:51 GMT -5
If your heart is not in SSA you won't do a good job and won't be successful. I have been in front of Judge's who took the ODAR job, hated every minute of it, were hostile to claimants and attorneys and transferred to other agencies as soon as they could. Not only are you taking a job away from someone who wants it, you are potentially affecting claimants who have waited 1-3 years to have their case heard. If you are bitter on the bench because you chose poorly, everyone loses.
While I've been in front of close to 100 different SSD ALJ's in my career, most are fair and pleasant. But the handful that are bitter, make this practice tough for all involved. Choose wisely.
|
|
|
Post by ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) on Jul 31, 2015 13:58:44 GMT -5
If your heart is not in SSA you won't do a good job and won't be successful. I have been in front of Judge's who took the ODAR job, hated every minute of it, were hostile to claimants and attorneys and transferred to other agencies as soon as they could. Not only are you taking a job away from someone who wants it, you are potentially affecting claimants who have waited 1-3 years to have their case heard. If you are bitter on the bench because you chose poorly, everyone loses. While I've been in front of close to 100 different SSD ALJ's in my career, most are fair and pleasant. But the handful that are bitter, make this practice tough for all involved. Choose wisely. Unfortunately, the system is set up so that those who would be wonderful ALJs at other agencies but who might despise SSA work still have to go through SSA (or OMHA). So it is not reasonable to expect all ALJs to enjoy SSA work under the current system. There is no other path but through SSA to get those ALJs to where they need to be. And I would submit that no one who would be a great judge at some other agencies with completely different types of hearings and subject matter (e.g., ITC, FTC, etc.) would enjoy their time as an SSA judge. It's like forcing fish to flop around in the tree tops for a couple years before you let them back in the water. (Imagine if it were the other way around, and all of you with hearts set on being at ODAR were forced to spend 2-3 years trying ITC patent cases before going back to an ODAR office.)
|
|
|
Post by redryder on Jul 31, 2015 14:42:15 GMT -5
My comments are not meant to put down anyone who is an ODAR ALJ. I am an ODAR ALJ. But in determining fitness to be an ALJ in different agencies, there are lawyers and then there ARE LAWYERS. Some of this will come through in the OPM testing. Just like in law school, the best and the brightest tend to have the highest scores. So other agencies can and do hire off of the register. It's just that any candidates they are interested in will be as attractive to every other agency. There have been postings since the latest testing about inquiries from folks other than ODAR and Medicare. And then there are those agencies who bypass OPM all together. The job has the same pay but the title is different. So it depends on what agency you have your eye on. Patent, Atomic Energy and Immigration are not ALJ posts but they are judges. I suspect they do not go through OPM so that they can get people with agency/industry specific knowledge.
But if you have your heart set on an agency that goes through OPM, it behooves you to think about retesting with an aim of a score in the high 80's and above.
One final note. Most other agencies take judges from ODAR versus the cert route as they have no training programs. By the time you have been on board with ODAR for a few years, you know the time/attendance rules, how to complete your annual financial disclosure reports and your interim financial reports, the Hatch Act, confidentiality rules and proper use of the government credit card. You can learn the law as you go, but who will teach you the day-to-day things you have to know?
|
|
|
Post by luckylady2 on Jul 31, 2015 16:00:38 GMT -5
One more aspect that deserves mention. The other agencies that use ALJs from the Register have only a handful compared to ODAR. Openings tend to be few & far between Although they hire experienced ALJs, they will obviously prefer one that has a background with their agency or in their area of law. There Is no sure ticket out of ODAR to another agency, and less so with no prior relevant experience. So the idea of going to ODAR as a stepping stone to some-other-agency-any-one-will-do is not as easy as it might sound.
|
|
|
Post by owl on Jul 31, 2015 18:54:47 GMT -5
My $0.02 - and none of this is directed personally at the OP or any poster by any means:
1. I'm not sure that the realpolitik fact that some people do try to get to be an ALJ at an agency that does adversarial hearings in high-stakes, complex subject matter areas with teams of high-priced lawyers duking it out etc., by doing time at SSA makes it OK. As redryder points out, there are other ways to get there - namely, be a NOR superstar (and put DC in your GAL). That route isn't as accessible to mere mortals but I don't see why that justifies using SSA - and likely hundreds if not thousands of claimants - as so many stepping stones to personal career fulfillment. I'm not saying one must never seek to advance one's personal goals and satisfaction at the same time as doing a public sector job - that would be silly - but you owe it to a lot of people to do the job in front of you to the best of your ability until such time as you get that coveted promotion. And if you have the ability to ultimately win a very competitive selection process for one of those relatively few adversarial ALJ jobs (to say nothing of magistrate and Article III judge jobs), then you have a lot of ability. And you have a moral and ethical obligation - to your profession, the claimants, the taxpayers, yourself, your Creator (if you're into that sort of thing), etc. - to plow that ability into the job you hope to use as a rung up the ladder.
2. You also need to give the SSA ALJ job a bona fide effort if for no other reason than the very self-serving one that you may need SSA to speak well of you down the line when you are up for that other agency ALJ slot.
3. And finally, it has been my experience in life that if you truly despise a job, or think it a waste of your talents or some such, you will actually and objectively suck at it. Or be miserable. And likely both. And then you will be stuck (or fired, but let us grant that it is still quite hard to get fired from a public sector job) in that job until and unless you quit, with your shot at better jobs, well, shot.
You must find meaning and challenge in your work - even if you must work to convince yourself that it is meaningful and challenging. And that may be especially challenging - not insurmountably so, but challenging nonetheless - for those who do want to the bulk of their ALJ'ing somewhere besides SSA.
Look, with all due respect to the SSA ALJ corps and my esteemed colleagues in wannabe-dom, it is an important job, certainly to the claimants, but it has more than a few elements of insurance claims adjuster (literally), assembly-line widget producer, and traffic court judge to it. (Heck, maybe not even traffic court judge but the cubicle drone who does nothing but review red-light camera videos on a computer screen all day and decides whether a ticket will issue that an actual judge will later review.) The opinion has been expressed on this very board that ODAR would, if it could have its druthers, not only take the J out of ALJ but the L, too; I mean, ODAR already has plenty of non-attorneys doing attorney work, which almost by definition means that they in actuality believe the work ultimately does not need to be done by attorneys. And what does that imply about the source of the work that these non-attorneys/nonessential attorneys do? Even if it never comes to pass (and it probably won't) that the disability adjudication system is downgraded all the way until it is performed by clerks in toto, it is a high-volume job with very real production expectations and ODAR doesn't find any ALJ that special when there are 1600 other people doing the same job.
Yet you must find meaning and challenge in the job. And it can be done, absolutely. But I bet it helps greatly to go into the job with a positive mindset focused primarily on valuing the job at hand. If you have doubts about whether you can do that for, likely, years, then maybe taking the SSA job to get somewhere else isn't even a good strategy purely from a self-interested standpoint.
|
|
|
Post by funkyodar on Aug 1, 2015 7:50:48 GMT -5
Owl raises some excellent points and has perked me from my Saturday morning sumber to chime in.
The dichotomy of the ssa alj gig is both humbling and ego boosting. As owl mentions, there is certainly a good bit of insurance adjuster about it. In fact, I keep a picture of the AFLAC duck just above my computer screen in my office. On days when I am burned out after looking at 1000 page folders of medical evidence and start having the "this job sucks" creep up on me, looking at the picture helps a bit. It reminds me that somewhere, probably in Omaha,is some poor schlub that is looking at a very similar file, taking statements and making a decision on whether that "claimant" should get disability insurance benefits from the company. And that dude is probably doing the job in a cubicle, without the benefit package I get and for somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 of what I am paid. It is really quite humbling.
But, on the otherhand...that guy works for company, not the United States of America. He answers to shareholders/members, not the American Taxpayers. His "claimants" are generally well off, I would guess from the fact that they have a job or financial ability to afford the luxury of disability insurance. Whereas, my claimants are often the poorest, least educated and most vulnerable part of our society. Or sometimes even removed from society. His work process is dictated by company policy, mine is laid out in the statutes, regualtions and laws of the US. While his decisions are pretty fast (the commercial says 3 days) mine take much longer. Of course, he doesnt have 1.2 million people waiting for a decision. While his job requires his primary focus to be in representing the company, I have to be mindful of the trust fund and protect the rights of the claimants. Even the ones I may not particulary like. And then, I am reminded of something I read way back when this whole process started (for me) in 2013. Due to how many lives our work impacts and the size of the SSA judiciary, a majority of people in this country have their only experience in front of a "Judge" in a Social Security hearing room. In front of someone like me. In a matter that, while maybe I am tempted to think like the AFLAC guy and look at as just another case I need to dispose to meet some goal, is utterly life changing, maybe even life saving to the claimant. That, my friends is as ego boosting as the previous thought was humbling.
And if you can't accept both parts of this job...those that make you feel like a cubicle drone in Omaha AND those that make you feel like just maybe you are the most important Judge in the world to some folks....then this isnt the job for you. In my unsolicited and pre-coffee opinion anyway.
|
|
|
Post by moopigsdad on Aug 1, 2015 8:26:02 GMT -5
Funky the next thing I hear about you will be you are working in a hair salon cutting and styling hair like the AFLAC duck in the commercials....LOL!
|
|
|
Post by funkyodar on Aug 1, 2015 8:31:53 GMT -5
Now that would be an important job. Nothing makes someone feel more like a new person than when they gets they hair did.
|
|
|
Post by maquereau on Aug 1, 2015 10:00:07 GMT -5
I am not certain that anyone is actually implying this, but I think it is perfectly fine for someone to take an ALJ job at SSA hoping that he/she will get picked up by another agency - perhaps the agency where they previously worked. In fact, I knew someone who did just that. He was completely up front about his desire to get picked up at his old agency. When a spot came open after he had been at SSA for a few months, he picked up and went back. Management may not have been happy about that, but they must know also that there is a possibility that any one of us could fly the coop for that reason or others equally valid. Anyway, here's the thing. The guy did his utmost to learn SSA law and to learn how to be a good judge right from the start. He was great with the claimants and the reps and the staff. He would have done very well had he stayed with SSA. I just have nothing bad to say about the dude. We do have ALJs in SSA who have stayed on and have not been particularly good at the job - even if they continue to have that burning desire to be/remain an SSA judge. Sometimes, to get where you want to be, you just have to pay your dues. And that does not mean you will be a bad SSA judge while you bide your time.
|
|
|
Post by owl on Aug 1, 2015 11:35:40 GMT -5
Funky's point about how a majority of people in this country have their only experience with a judge via SSA put me in mind of another point that those who are on the fence about ALJ'ing at SSA should consider: The SSA ALJ job requires dealing directly with the public, in all its myriad shapes and sizes, and often with no filter, i.e., lawyer/rep, between the judge and the litigant. So the job also has elements of DMV clerk to it (with a little bit of ER triage nurse too as perhaps Judgeratty can attest!). If you come from, say, a commercial litigation background, you really need to think about what dealing with the public for a goodly part of your week will truly be like. Seriously, I was at the DMV this week, and had an hour to just watch the various employees doing their jobs. Unsure about whether SSA ALJ is for you? Take an hour and visit your local DMV (or ER) and just watch. There will be more than a few parallels.
Or watch the scene in Godfather II where young Vito is being processed at Ellis Island. The immigration clerk's job description, I would imagine, involves applying complex statutes and regulations, but before he can get around to that, he must get information from the person in front of him - yet that person doesn't understand what the clerk is even saying, doesn't speak English, can't process what's going on. Now of course, SSA supplies interpreters in case of a language barrier issue, but you need to realize that a lot of the SSA ALJ job involves a difficult process of just explaining the procedures and requirements to, and trying to extract vital information from, people who come from all segments of society, including many segments that most of us have little direct experience with, before you can even get around to the "judging" part that involves analysis, decison making, etc.
I had various summer jobs as a kid like everyone else but it wasn't until my junior year in college that I first had one that entailed dealing directly with the public. I worked in a store in a mall. What an eye opener. And what a sheltered existence I had led up to that point. We live in a great country with freedoms galore, and all I can say is those freedoms allow a wide, wide spectrum of folks/personalities/mindsets to be out and about. And when you are standing between a random person and something that person wants - be it a t-shirt from a store, a driver's license, or disability benefits - many people will treat you less like a human peer that must be dealt with on equal terms and more like a mere, objectified obstacle that must be unlocked, navigated around, manipulated, or just plain defeated by brute force. As a writer, I hear/see it over and over again on the hearing tapes/transcripts: many claimants will call you "judge" or "your honor," but they treat you more as just another government window in front of which they have to say the right words to get what they want/need - which, by the way, they think they should have gotten a long time before having to come see you, and you are like the fifth window they've had to go to now...
There is definitely meaning and challenge to be had in work serving the public. Is it the type of meaning and challenge, though, that reasonably will fit you, your skill set, your personality, what drives you, etc.?
|
|
|
Post by mamaru on Aug 1, 2015 11:40:08 GMT -5
In sum, those of us limited to only occasional contact with the general public are not destined to be successful in this position.
|
|
|
Post by ba on Aug 1, 2015 12:03:52 GMT -5
In sum, those of us limited to only occasional contact with the general public are not destined to be successful in this position. Well played...
|
|
|
Post by hopefalj on Aug 1, 2015 13:28:47 GMT -5
If your heart is not in SSA you won't do a good job and won't be successful. I have been in front of Judge's who took the ODAR job, hated every minute of it, were hostile to claimants and attorneys and transferred to other agencies as soon as they could. Not only are you taking a job away from someone who wants it, you are potentially affecting claimants who have waited 1-3 years to have their case heard. If you are bitter on the bench because you chose poorly, everyone loses. While I've been in front of close to 100 different SSD ALJ's in my career, most are fair and pleasant. But the handful that are bitter, make this practice tough for all involved. Choose wisely. I have known judges that were hoping to move on to other agencies that were good judges with ODAR (patient with claimants, pleasant with staff, quality decision makers, etc.) until they moved on. But miserable a-holes are miserable a-holes, whether at ODAR, the SEC, or at district court. Being respectful and professional isn't job-dependent.
|
|
|
Post by factfinder on Aug 1, 2015 15:06:26 GMT -5
I agree totally with all the sentiment that you need to be committed to do a good job as a SSA ALJ. When I took the job, I made that commitment. I had no idea I might leave SSA or even when. I can truthfully say i dedicated myself to learning to be an effective judge and dealing with the mass of humanity that came to us for justice. It was a sobering experience. I even thought, perhaps conceitedly, that I got better at it as time went along.
In addition, I worked with some wonderful folks, from our HOCALJ, HOD, Senior Attorneys, LCT, SCTs, ALJs, etc. These folks went out of there way to help me and everyone, it seemed to me, wanted to do a excellent job, including the claimant representatives. I admit I was less than favorably impressed by what went on in West Virginia and at the Regional level and never understood how ODAR made the CALJ appointment they did or what the heck the Appeals Council really was supposed to do, although I was very infrequently a victim. I enjoyed the introductory course, the one year course, etc. The instructors were uniformly excellent, except for that fat toad Andrus, the enabler of Mahoney (along with the RCALJ) in my opinion. In addition to all of that, the Hearing Office itself was a great place to work, we had holiday parties that were festive and other celebrations that were lots of fun. So, I had a very positive experience as a judge and when I left I did so with only the best of memories.
I note that as one poster said, there are lawyers and there are LAWYERS (barristers?). I am of the later variety. I relish the adversarial process, contact with all kinds of people (even lawyers) and the hearings I preside over now require constant alertness and knowledge of position of both parties. But, I consider this job to be a matter of luck and timing, not intent. If my current job had not come along, I believe I would have been happy to stay with the very fine folks I had worked with. I never found it difficult to come to work at ODAR and I miss the folks.
I think having the courage to bow out in advance in case the job is not the right thing is so much the right thing to do it is beyond serious discussion. Just yesterday I was talking to someone in our agency who asked me about the SSA office I came out of since he is fairly high scored on the list and it is on his GAL. I was able to give and absolutely affirmative recommendation.
The one thing all of us need to consider is that certain folks at ODAR have consistently blamed the judges for slow case movement, over paying, etc. As a result, Congress may be poised to "help" the process. I hope the pathetic bunch of time servers in the union (which I was a member of because it was the only show in town) are coordinating with the ACUS, FALJ and the FORUM on thus do not lose sight of the ball there. The consequences could be unpleasant for all of us. And, for any of you moon calves who believe the CALJ and her minions are on your side in this effort, I have a bridge to sell you.
|
|
|
Post by Morfin on Aug 1, 2015 21:46:35 GMT -5
This is one of the best threads on this board with good points on both sides.
While the OP may be correct that the system is flawed and that some good, potential non-SSA ALJs may not apply because they don't want to do SSA work, the fact is that going the SSA route is probably the best chance of getting the non-SSA gig. This is unlikely to change.
As a wise person once said, "There comes a time when you have to stop fighting the rules and start playing the game."
|
|
|
Post by anotherfed on Aug 2, 2015 7:50:59 GMT -5
EDIT NOTE BY PIXIE: This post by TL took offense at some of the statements made by Factfinder. At first I tried to edit out the most offensive portions, but decided the post should be deleted in its entirety as not in keeping with the board guidelines. Pixie. The Tiger is back! Grrrrrrrr!
|
|