new alj classes

[cinderella]

Hi Learned- I'm not excited, just hopeful. There is a long path between here and eventual training for the candidates! Also, I've been with the Agency a long time- so I take EVERYTHING with a grain of salt.

I always wonder about time lines. That's why I've found some of the projections and statements very interesting. Most processes in the "G" appear to be like molasses in January- slow slow slow. There does seem to be a bit of an acceleration on this particular project.

[chris]

There is no funding for hires in 2007 and no time either. The timetable has been set forth as completing the register by late October, agency interviewing for the remainder of 2007, offers in late December or January, training in February and on the job by March 1. Some have questioned whetehr this timetable can be met and have speculated that everything will be pushed back (or is it pushed forward?) a month or two.

[odarite]

RE: what you get paid in training: you get a per diem, the amount is determined by the city where the training is held. They do put you up in a suites type hotel, so having your family visit is doable (some trainees have their families with them the whole time). You do not get paid to go home. If you are not already a government employee you do not get a relocation package or any help at all with any move that might be required. NOTE: do not accept an offer for a city you don't want to go to. Back in the day, you could put in some time and get transferred to where you really want to be. That is no longer the case. You won't even be allowed to apply for a transfer for 2 years, and then can't be sure you will get it. I know people who have been on the transfer list for years and are still waiting.

[odarite]

Re: Chris. I have heard the same thing about training except that the new trainees would report in March - for the in office orientation, then classroom. So that pushes it back a little right away.

[chris]

odarite said:

RE: what you get paid in training: you get a per diem, the amount is determined by the city where the training is held. They do put you up in a suites type hotel, so having your family visit is doable (some trainees have their families with them the whole time). You do not get paid to go home. If you are not already a government employee you do not get a relocation package or any help at all with any move that might be required. NOTE: do not accept an offer for a city you don't want to go to. Back in the day, you could put in some time and get transferred to where you really want to be. That is no longer the case. You won't even be allowed to apply for a transfer for 2 years, and then can't be sure you will get it. I know people who have been on the transfer list for years and are still waiting.

That is such a good point. Those who selected "all" for their availability may be having some tough decisions. I doubt that very many people are truly open to all locations and using that as a tactic to get in may not work as well as they hoped.

[oldtimer]

Pixie, when I referred to the relocation package, I meant for new ALJs. I'm sure that many games are played with relocation for transfers and the like, but am I not correct that ALL ODAR attorneys who are appointed ALJs receive the package (assuming they're not simply returning to their home office to serve as an ALJ there)?

I'm not familiar with the current OPM practices [Pixie, correct me if I'm entirely wrong], but my recollection is that, in the past, what you indicated for OPM was far less important than what you indicated to ODAR, when they advised you specifically where they anticipated openings to be. And, if you really decided that you definitely didn't want Billings when it was offered to you, I didn't think there was much of a penalty, i.e., you weren't stricken altogether from the certificate of eligible candidates (and, if your score were high enough, maybe you'd be in the top 3 for another office and receive an offer?).

Finally, for those desperate enough to accept an offer from "everywhere," you can always try the "traditional" ODAR shortcut within the first two years, i.e., wait for the HOCALJ vacancy to be announced in the desired office and apply. The way things are going these days, chances are the vacancy announcement won't be long in coming.

[odarite]

If I recall correctly, if you decline one offer there is no penalty, but if you decline two you go to the back of the bus. The details of what that means, i don't recall. You may even have to reapply.

And yes, the old HOCALJ dodge still works, but remember you have to be selected, and that process has nothing to do with seniority, etc. You could spend a long time applying and never be selected. I know of at least 2 ALJs who are still trying to move through that mechanism, and they are past the 2 year bar.

[chris]

Why would anyone want to be HOCALJ?

[odarite]

To get a transfer or a bump in pay (if you've been an ALJ less than 7 years). Otherwise, you are responsible without the power to do anything about it. It's a thankless task, which is why there is such a high turnover.

[Pixie]

Oldtimer, I believe you are exactly right about the ALJs selected from the attorney ranks getting the relocation package.

With respect to the selection of cities at the OPM level vs. the ODAR level, I think you are right about that also. If you don't indicate to OPM a willingness to go to a certain city, your name won't get sent to ODAR on the certificate of eligibles. If you do make a broad selection, you can refuse the offer to a specific location one time without penalty. If you refuse the offer to the same city the second time, I believe the penalty is elimination from further consideration. At least that is the way I believe it worked in the past, but it has been several years since I have thought about it.

Now that OPM has redone the procedure, I'm not sure how it will work, but probably very similar to the old way.

My advice has always been to be as inclusive as possible. With the caveat that if you really can't force yourself to go to a particular location, don't select it at the OPM level. Keep in mind that the transfer procedure has changed, and I think there are fewer transfers now than before the union contract. If you can't see yourself, or your family, in a particular location for ten years, don't select it. There are a few judges out there who haven't been able to get back to their hometown in over ten years. That is more the exception than the rule, but it does happen.

Before, most judges got back home in two or three years, if they weren't a problem in the hearing office, and if they were reasonably productive. It's a new ballgame today.

There is also the opposite side of the coin. Many people in OCALJ still remember the judge who accepted an appointment in some small town in Louisiana. He was not from the South. Starting the first day of his training class, he agitated long and hard, and used every reason in the book, to get reassigned to a "better" location. After his family moved and got settled in, they decided they loved it there, and he removed his name from consideration for a transfer. So, sometimes you never know until you try it. Pix.

[oldtimer]

"And yes, the old HOCALJ dodge still works, but remember you have to be selected, and that process has nothing to do with seniority, etc. You could spend a long time applying and never be selected. I know of at least 2 ALJs who are still trying to move through that mechanism, and they are past the 2 year bar."

That was my point; since there's little reason to become HOCALJ if you're satisfied being where you are (and much reason not to), I have to assume that, in many if not most cases, the applicants for a HOCALJ opening consist mainly of those in recent classes who haven't yet completed the two years necessary for requesting a transfer. I believe that ODAR only requires six months ALJ experience for former ODAR attorneys before selection as a HOCALJ, versus 1 year for those without previous ODAR experience.

[odarite]

I am not even sure those limits are enforced: I can think of contrary examples. But prior federal management experience may be key there.

[ALJD]

Interesting post from Hooligan from the anonymous sub-forum that may add some additional insight to this discussion:

"Just a note to say that there is a list circulating through the Regional offices with projected locations to put new ALJs. Very tentative at this stage and primarily for comment at the higher levels. Once they agree on something, it will go to the ALJ union and the transfer list will be activated. If the top person on the transfer list declines, the union expects the slot to be offered to the second person on the list. Management is not likely to dig any deeper into the list.

The way the transfer provision of the union contract are written, management only needs to open one slot in each location to the list. If there are multiple openings in one location, management can choose to put new hires there even if there are multiple transfer candidtes."

[cinderella]

Yes, I too thought that Hooligan's info was very interesting. I wish we knew more- a lot more!

[Pixie]

chris said:

learnedhand said:

All I can go by is my previous move. A househunting trip was paid for. Temporary accomodations for 3 months were paid for if necessary. The physical move was paid for. If you went with a mortgage company working with the federal gov't, much of your closing costs were paid for. There was the option to have the gov't buy your home. Also, all this payment was considered extra income to me, and the taxes on that income were paid.

That seems very generous. Were those perks given to you as a new ALJ or for some other reason, such as moving from one federal job to another? In short, do all new ALJs get those moving benefits?

New ALJs. who are not federal employees, do not get any moving expenses paid. If you are lucky, you might get a few days admin leave to make the move. Pix.

[judicature]

Pixie - your last post has drawn some incredible scrutiny on the connect board - "Commas, Pandas and ALJs" :

Post analyzing commas

Apparently they aren't very busy over there.

[workdrone]

Panda and bamboo shoots... whatever that guy drink before writing that post, he probably needs to do it in moderation. ;D All in all, an entertaining post (even though it gave me bad flashback of grammer school).

Regards,

Drone

[cinderella]

I think the comma is fine- it was merely a typo (I'm guessing). Pix probably meant to say, "who WERE not federal employees." Sheesh.

[hooligan]

Don't count on mass retirements associated with the active bar membership issue. The policy is apparently to check only if the individual is applying for a promotion or transfer. As to those who may have let everything lapse, they do not plan enforcement as long as the individual is actively pursuing reinstatement.

[Pixie]

cinderella said:

I think the comma is fine- it was merely a typo (I'm guessing). Pix probably meant to say, "who WERE not federal employees." Sheesh.

Yes, thank you. And "...who were not federal employees prior to their appointment..." would have made it even more clear.

If you will notice the comma after "ALJs" is not a comma, it is a period. He should have picked that up and run with it.

Maybe we ought to make him a moderator so he can correct our typos and spelling errors. It would give him something to do with his life!