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Post by jagvet on Jan 5, 2017 12:17:51 GMT -5
I loved my litigation career (fed and private sector), but I gave that up in 2004 for a GS-15 position that required a cross-country move. While I enjoyed that, too, it got tangled up in bureaucracy and management of 70 employees. Furthermore, the current outgoing administration made the work level impossible for my staff and politicized much of the work, so that there were innumerable crises and self-created emergencies. I shudder to think what my successor has to deal with before January 20 (probably working around the clock). I have long wanted to be an ODAR ALJ because I enjoy the quasi-litigation environment, deciding cases, and maybe even helping people in need. The job is harder than I thought, but certainly fulfilling. I see a dozen real people each week and listen to their stories. A favorable decision means I have helped them with a check. An unfavorable means I have helped them with closure. Either way, someone gets a chance to tell me his or her story. Despite the boilerplate and regimented rules, I really find something different in every hearing. If you listen carefully to these folks and treat them as the individuals they are, you will always learn something new and enjoy the whole gig. I also enjoy the social aspects of the hearing office. Although so many people telework, those hardy souls who show up are mostly engaging and enjoy a "water cooler" joke or a friendly comment from me, and I like kidding around with them. Most of my colleagues here are more formal, so I have a sense that the staff like the Jagvet approach. I know I do. The building guards have a tough job here, and I manage to crack them up once in a while. They get me back by teasing me about a tie I'm wearing or pretending my PIV card is no good because I don't look like my photo. Bottom line is this: It's not the most exciting job I have ever had, but it is excellent and fulfilling, and I encourage each of you who are applicants to stick with it--don't give up. Pixie: Please feel free to edit or delete if I crossed any lines. |
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Post by Pixie on Jan 5, 2017 12:33:19 GMT -5
No need to edit or delete; very good post.
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Post by acttwo on Jan 5, 2017 16:06:44 GMT -5
I loved my litigation career (fed and private sector), but I gave that up in 2004 for a GS-15 position that required a cross-country move. While I enjoyed that, too, it got tangled up in bureaucracy and management of 70 employees. Furthermore, the current outgoing administration made the work level impossible for my staff and politicized much of the work, so that there were innumerable crises and self-created emergencies. I shudder to think what my successor has to deal with before January 20 (probably working around the clock). I have long wanted to be an ODAR ALJ because I enjoy the quasi-litigation environment, deciding cases, and maybe even helping people in need. The job is harder than I thought, but certainly fulfilling. I see a dozen real people each week and listen to their stories. A favorable decision means I have helped them with a check. An unfavorable means I have helped them with closure. Either way, someone gets a chance to tell me his or her story. Despite the boilerplate and regimented rules, I really find something different in every hearing. If you listen carefully to these folks and treat them as the individuals they are, you will always learn something new and enjoy the whole gig. I also enjoy the social aspects of the hearing office. Although so many people telework, those hardy souls who show up are mostly engaging and enjoy a "water cooler" joke or a friendly comment from me, and I like kidding around with them. Most of my colleagues here are more formal, so I have a sense that the staff like the Jagvet approach. I know I do. The building guards have a tough job here, and I manage to crack them up once in a while. They get me back by teasing me about a tie I'm wearing or pretending my PIV card is no good because I don't look like my photo. Bottom line is this: It's not the most exciting job I have ever had, but it is excellent and fulfilling, and I encourage each of you who are applicants to stick with it--don't give up. Pixie : Please feel free to edit or delete if I crossed any lines. Jagvet, you give me hope and make me hope to have the same chance to serve as you and the others are doing. Thanks! |
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Post by aljwishhope on Jan 6, 2017 6:45:01 GMT -5
Thanks Jagvet as an outsider with a little SSA experience, sometimes when I read negativity on board I wonder why bother. Thanks
Most recent negativity that ALJs are preposterously overpaid. If I were to be offered an ALJ position ,I like I imagine many candidates, would be at most matching their basic salary. With the elimination of bonuses and overtime for me it likely would initially be a pay cut. Further given the demands of job including holding about 50? Hearings a month and my intention to do a thorough job consistent with Jagvets description and the skill and experience I bring to the table after more than 20 hers in practice SSA would be getting a bargain.
Sometimes I just wonder who are the folks applying for this job or am I so out of touch?
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Post by Lawesome on Jan 6, 2017 8:07:19 GMT -5
Something else to consider... ALJs, like other judges, are putting their names on decisions that may make someone feel as though their life is ruined. If you talk to claimants who received an unfavorable decision, many believe the judge simply did not like them or ignored obvious evidence. These claimants are often desperate. They may have lost their home, have children depending on them, and have had to wait a ridiculous amount of time to get their day in court, only to be denied.
The majority of the judges in my office have been approached outside their job by a claimant. Some claimants try to smuggle in weapons, and I know of one ALJ that was stalked (not my office). A local judge (non ALJ) once awoke to the barrel of a shotgun. There is a website where you can "grade" SSA ALJs, and many ALJs have negative comments by claimants.
Let's not forget that being a judge is a huge responsibility. OPM/federal agencies want to find and hire candidates who have the courage to make accurate decisions, as well as stand by their decisions despite possible outside influences.
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Post by judgymcjudgypants on Jan 6, 2017 10:42:19 GMT -5
I am a 20 year state ALJ and have busy dockets and adversarial hearings. I am sure I work as hard as any fed ALJ but I have never had a six figure salary. The very idea is rather mind-boggling to me.
So, don't assume.
J
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Post by jonsprag1 on Jan 6, 2017 19:53:04 GMT -5
I am a 20 year state ALJ and have busy dockets and adversarial hearings. I am sure I work as hard as any fed ALJ but I have never had a six figure salary. The very idea is rather mind-boggling to me. So, don't assume. J I suppose it depends on where you were a state ALJ. I did 12 years as a state ALJ in adversarial hearings---in some ways it is more difficult but in most ways it is easier than being an SSA/ODAR ALJ. I was only expected to do about 150-200 cases a year--not 500-700, and the lawyers did the prep work for both sides, sparing me that chore---I could actually work less than a 40 hour week but get still get paid for working full time--
As an ODAR ALJ I have to prep each case myself, in advance, which takes anywhere from 1 hour to 4 hours, depending on the case- some cases have over 1000 pages of medical reports (my personal record is 10,000+pages)-and I'm currently doing 12 cases a week, going to 14 in March so figure between 24 and 36 hours a week for prep and then 12 for hearings and an additional 10-15 hours for miscellaneous stuff like instruction writing, edits and ALPOs---generally, however I don't write the decisions, just the instructions to the writers who do that work for me. Some writers are excellent and do a better job than I could ever hope to do. Most of them are competent and do good work and some are awful, like folks in any field of endeavor. If I get a case back from an excellent or a good writer, then it takes 20 or so minutes at most to do the edits. The very rare bad decision I get, however, makes me wish I had just written it myself.
The bottom line is that I didn't have to work nearly as hard when I was a state ALJ but didn't get paid as much either --like you less than 6 figures although I've heard the salary at my old job has gone up. And I assure you, having done both jobs, I work much harder at the ODAR position--One final comment regarding "negativity"--I really like my job, despite the hard work, I really have a sense I'm making a difference in people's lives and providing a much needed service. That alone makes the job worthwhile.
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Post by denise on Jan 14, 2017 8:53:56 GMT -5
Interesting Question. I just got a promotion to GS-15 (start on PP beginning 1/8), YEAH!. If I don't get a NOR it definitely won't hurt as much. I have a wide open GAL and if I do get a NOR I will be more selective that I would have before the promotion. Some of my motivations for a change would be location, location, location. I love being in the desert southwest but would like to spend a few years were I could be close to big water. The other consideration is making a better high three. I have about 2.3 years till retirement eligible (although don't plan on going that soon). With the ALJ advancing my pay a bit faster that GS-15, if given an offer, I would look at how that might affect my high three at 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, etc years. Also, a past SSA writer and like the work. Bottom line a balance between location and high three. We are planning on retiring to a 40-50 foot trawler cruising for a few years (Keys, Bahamas, ICW, Great Loop). If offer came for a location that lends itself to being near cruising retirement location and the high three numbers worked would take the plunge. Love your retirement plan! Is there any way to update your application with OPM to include your recent promotion to a GS-15? |
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Post by montyburns on Jan 14, 2017 11:36:09 GMT -5
I am a 20 year state ALJ and have busy dockets and adversarial hearings. I am sure I work as hard as any fed ALJ but I have never had a six figure salary. The very idea is rather mind-boggling to me. So, don't assume. J Supreme Court justices in my state only make 140k. Many county court judges and district court judges make less than 100k in rural counties. Talking to aljs who had previously been state court, I have never known any that thought ssa was harder than being a art 3 judge. Comparing an ALJ salary to starting salaries for big law firms is also kind of silly. They work at least twice as many hours and graduated close to the top of their class from a top tier or Ivy League school. I have never met an ALJ who went to an Ivy League school (not saying there aren't any, but it's not the norm). And of course none of the above has a lifetime appointment, as state court judges are subject to retention votes every few years. I'm not saying ALJs are overpaid, but for people to imply that taking an ALJ job is an act altruism on their part is rather ridiculous. |
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Post by minny on Jan 15, 2017 12:13:52 GMT -5
Love your retirement plan! Is there any way to update your application with OPM to include your recent promotion to a GS-15? , I'm sorry I cannot recall what stage of this process you are in. Whether you are awaiting your NOR or are already on the register and waiting to get on a cert, the answer is that you will have an opportunity to update your information when/if SSA gets your name on a cert. I am not sure how other agencies handle it but few ever pull certs from the register anyway. SSA will send you paperwork that you will have a few days to complete, and will require you to submit a new resume. |
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Post by gary on Jan 15, 2017 12:50:41 GMT -5
Is there any way to update your application with OPM to include your recent promotion to a GS-15? , I'm sorry I cannot recall what stage of this process you are in. Whether you are awaiting your NOR or are already on the register and waiting to get on a cert, the answer is that you will have an opportunity to update your information when/if SSA gets your name on a cert. I am not sure how other agencies handle it but few ever pull certs from the register anyway. SSA will send you paperwork that you will have a few days to complete, and will require you to submit a new resume. OMHA sends an email saying OPM has given them your name for a position in City A, and asks if you are interested in being considered for an ALJ position there, before sending you any application materials. I don't know what their process is after that. |
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Post by SPN Lifer on Dec 28, 2017 18:44:54 GMT -5
Insightful motivational fodder.
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Post by mark18 on Jan 7, 2018 12:42:46 GMT -5
I'm a former SSA/OGC GS-15 who accepted an ALJ offer. My GAL was very small, my current location and a few cities where I had a very strong interest in living. Money was, at most, a small factor. Although, I will say that while GS-15s max-out at a level close to ALJs, it takes a lot longer to get there. As a GS 15-3, I got to enter as an ALJ-3B. I'll max out in just a few years--it would have taken much longer as a GS-15. Sure, that might not impact my high 3 rates much, but I'm in my 30s and have a lot of years ahead of me to consider.
I'm not yet sure what I think about the work. Honestly, the work as an ALJ seems both harder and less complex than much of the work I did in OGC, which is unfortunate. However, I joined partly for (a) increased independence and (b) becoming a decisionmaker rather than someone who defended other people's decisions. So far, my intuition about the attractiveness of the ALJ position in those aspects seems true to me.
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Post by numbersix on Jan 7, 2018 13:18:43 GMT -5
I'm a former SSA/OGC GS-15 who accepted an ALJ offer. My GAL was very small, my current location and a few cities where I had a very strong interest in living. I think this is key. "My GAL was very small, my current location and a few cities where I had a very strong interest in living." For those of you who will be hired the next round, it might be wise to consider. All of the input from our GS 15 ALJ colleagues has been insightful. |
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Post by trickbag on Jan 7, 2018 22:18:50 GMT -5
Got a 15 during the application process; the major impact of that was that my GAL went from small to tiny. Even so I really had to think carefully about whether to make the jump. But very glad I did, ALJ has been significantly superior with respect to quality of life. I do miss the writing and legal analysis from my old job but it was a good tradeoff.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2018 6:46:39 GMT -5
Got a 15 during the application process; the major impact of that was that my GAL went from small to tiny. Even so I really had to think carefully about whether to make the jump. But very glad I did, ALJ has been significantly superior with respect to quality of life. I do miss the writing and legal analysis from my old job but it was a good tradeoff. Very accurate assessment. There are both pluses and minuses in each position. Issues percolated more and needed more deliberation and someone else made the decision in my past GS-15 job. I did learn a great deal with every issue that was complicated.
In the ALJ job. I am the decision maker. I get maybe three hours per case and I need to move them ASAP.
I can still take time off whenever I need to but now I need to plan out well in advance because of hearing schedule which is usually planned out six months in advance. At the old job, I could just take off at a moment's notice. Can still do it as an ALJ but only on non-hearing days and also cannot just take a week unless I have planned it out six months in advance!
I did not have to sign in at my old job. I came and went as I pleased, there was no one watching me, after all my GS grade was at top of the food chain. I am still at the top of the food chain as an ALJ but I have to sign in and out every day and account for any time that I am not actively engaged--so there is some micro managing in the ALJ job. Not that there is any time to loiter with the amount of cases that you are required to handle on a monthly basis.
As a GS-15 I had some weeks that were slow and I caught up on projects. There is no such thing as a slow week as an ALJ, even if you are not doing hearings you are catching up on other work, prepping for cases, writing instructions, editing decisions etc..
Overall it is a good job. I took it because I got a location where I always wanted to be. If you are a GS-15 in a location you are happy with, then do not take the job at a location you know nothing about. You may come to second guess your decision on a daily basis because there is a huge change in the type of work you will do and there is also a culture shock when you come to SSA.
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Post by Pixie on Jan 8, 2018 9:03:35 GMT -5
Got a 15 during the application process; the major impact of that was that my GAL went from small to tiny. Even so I really had to think carefully about whether to make the jump. But very glad I did, ALJ has been significantly superior with respect to quality of life. I do miss the writing and legal analysis from my old job but it was a good tradeoff. Very accurate assessment. There are both pluses and minuses in each position. Issues percolated more and needed more deliberation and someone else made the decision in my past GS-15 job. I did learn a great deal with every issue that was complicated.
In the ALJ job. I am the decision maker. I get maybe three hours per case and I need to move them ASAP.
I can still take time off whenever I need to but now I need to plan out well in advance because of hearing schedule which is usually planned out six months in advance. At the old job, I could just take off at a moment's notice. Can still do it as an ALJ but only on non-hearing days and also cannot just take a week unless I have planned it out six months in advance!
I did not have to sign in at my old job. I came and went as I pleased, there was no one watching me, after all my GS grade was at top of the food chain. I am still at the top of the food chain as an ALJ but I have to sign in and out every day and account for any time that I am not actively engaged--so there is some micro managing in the ALJ job. Not that there is any time to loiter with the amount of cases that you are required to handle on a monthly basis.
As a GS-15 I had some weeks that were slow and I caught up on projects. There is no such thing as a slow week as an ALJ, even if you are not doing hearings you are catching up on other work, prepping for cases, writing instructions, editing decisions etc..
Overall it is a good job. I took it because I got a location where I always wanted to be. If you are a GS-15 in a location you are happy with, then do not take the job at a location you know nothing about. You may come to second guess your decision on a daily basis because there is a huge change in the type of work you will do and there is also a culture shock when you come to SSA.
Two points: (1) I have never found it realistic to take a day off when I wanted, even on non hearing days. On those days, I mainly am preparing for hearings the next day. If I take off, I go into hearings the next day unprepared, and I won't do that. That means every weekday of my life for the next 5 to 6 months is accounted for. There is no flexibility, and for no good reason. At least I usually get the weekends off. Could never be assured of that luxury prior to joining the Agency. (2) it is to our benefit to sign in and sign out. In my past life I, too, was never required to do that. Usually worked 50 to 60 hours a week. When I started with the Agency we had the option of signing in or not. I quickly learned the benefits of using the sign in sheet and never opted for the alternative. I think I knew of one judge who opted to not sign in. YMMV. Pixie |
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Post by jagvet on Jan 8, 2018 11:56:07 GMT -5
Interesting opinions here. Let's hear some more.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2018 13:59:01 GMT -5
Two points: (1) I have never found it realistic to take a day off when I wanted, even on non hearing days. On those days, I mainly am preparing for hearings the next day. If I take off, I go into hearings the next day unprepared, and I won't do that. That means every weekday of my life for the next 5 to 6 months is accounted for. There is no flexibility, and for no good reason. At least I usually get the weekends off. Could never be assured of that luxury prior to joining the Agency. (2) it is to our benefit to sign in and sign out. In my past life I, too, was never required to do that. Usually worked 50 to 60 hours a week. When I started with the Agency we had the option of signing in or not. I quickly learned the benefits of using the sign in sheet and never opted for the alternative. I think I knew of one judge who opted to not sign in. YMMV. Pixie (1) If I am going to take a day off, I do prepare ahead of time for the hearings. Last week my spouse had a medical procedure that came up at last minute so I just stayed longer an prepped for the cases that I would have prepped for on that day--I do not take days off just to take days off--but there are times when the need does come up.(2) I am still doing the 50 hours a week on average that I did when I was a GS-15, it just comes with the territory. One thing I found very difficult was the ability to use up the credit hours. But I hope to get better. Especially once I start teleworking. |
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Post by xoanon on Jan 9, 2018 10:33:02 GMT -5
I am a GS-15 awaiting my online assessment results. My GAL is very small. My component has been really impacted by lots of retirements over the last year along with the continuing hiring freeze. So, even though there is work to be done, there are no resources or staff to do the work. I'm bored and I need to be challenged.
From some of what I've read, GS-15's generally score well and make it to the register. Is that true? (Please say yes)
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