Summary of Cities Selected on New Cert polls

[counsel]

By my count, these are the cities in order of popularity, from the Cities Selected on New Cert polls 1 and 2. The number in front is the number of votes, not the region.

18 Portland, OR
16 Eugene, OR
15 Raleigh, NC
15 Hartford, CT
15 Charlotte, NC
15 Albuquerque, NM
14 Portland, ME
14 Nashville, TN
14 Memphis, TN
14 Jacksonville, FL
14 Albany, NY
13 Richmond, VA
13 Pittsburgh, PA
13 Lexington, KY
13 Greenville, SC
13 Dallas (DT), TX
13 Cincinnati, OH
13 Atlanta, GA
12 St. Louis, MO
12 Orlando, FL
12 Orange, CA
12 Los Angeles (DT), CA
12 Fort Lauderdale, FL
12 Charleston, WV
11 Milwaukee, WI
11 Louisville, KY
11 Jericho, NY
11 Jackson, MS
11 Harrisburg, PA
11 Downey, CA
11 Bronx, NY
10 San Francisco, CA
10 Paducah, KY
10 New Orleans, LA
10 Montgomery, AL
10 Fort Wayne, IN
10 Creve Coeur, MO
09 San Bernardino, CA
09 Orland Park, IL
09 Miami, FL
09 McAlester, OK
09 Evansville, IN
09 Alexandria, LA

[lurker]

May 5, 2008 12:13:09 GMT -5 @patriotsfan said:

Can we assume that at least nine people on the cert selected "all?"

Must be. How else would someone know to select Orland Park, IL ?

(Spouse is still ruing the fact that we didn't realize how close Orland Park was to Chicago when we made out the list last May)

[allrise]

My guess is that there are a lot of high scorers who were passed over last time that selected all locations. Probably should have had a seperate choice for all on this poll. I made the last cert with a low score and I was only up for 3 nyc area locations. This time there are 2 nyc area locations and I did not make the cert. I had hope for this round because I figured the top scorers in the nyc area got their jobs. Guess I was wrong. I wish they would just give us more info. What would be so bad about giving info on the lowest score on the cert.

[tdtksbp]

I guess I am one of the nine that did select "all" locations, but my score is very low. However, I did make both certs, so I guess there is still hope.

[morgullord]

If you are on the cert, then your name was in the top three for one city on the list.

[aljhunter]

I am SO confused.

[jagghagg]

Yeah, Boley - set 'em straight! Pixie - shed some light!

Here's the official OPM lingo: "Candidates referred on OPM certificates are ranked by score and veterans preference. Normally, at least three candidates are referred, with additional candidates if more than one vacancy is being filled. For selection, the rule of three applies. This means that selection must be made from the top three candidates on the certificate, keeping in mind that you cannot bypass a candidate with veterans preference to select a candidate with no preference, unless the supervisor can adequately justify doing so on security or suitability grounds."

Note the line: "Normally, at least three candidates are referred, with additional candidates if more than one vacancy is being filled." So, for example, if only two vacancies were being filled, you would see anywhere between 6 and 8, 10, or even 20 names on a Cert. (That would be the top three plus "additional candidates" juuuuuust in case the selecting official wants doesn't want one of the top three and can justify not doing so.)

This is why everyone is so interested in how many people are on the cert. Since "[n]ormally at least three candidates are referred" per slot, then in this case (and I've heard the vacancies are running anywhere between 50-55,) that would mean that no less than 150 to 165 names would have to be on the Cert from OPM to SSA. And that would ONLY fulfill OPM's responsibility to refer 3 person per vacancy.

If you assume that OPM has referred a set of "top three" candidates (ranked by score and vet preference) for each vacancy PLUS "additional candidates" because it is a multiple vacancy cert, then you have to assume either (A) OPM referred more than 150-155 names or (B) knowing that only one of the top three for each location will be selected, leaving the other two to suffice for the "additional candidate" requirement, OPM only sent out 150-155 names.

This is how it is possible that if you are on the Cert, you are already a "top three" for some place where there is a vacancy. [Puh-leese note I didn't say guaranteed - I said it is "possible."] Only by knowing how exactly how many vacancies exist and how many names are on the Cert will anyone ever know if there are only top threes referred or if OPM also sent out a buncha names that are "filler."

[jagghagg]

May 6, 2008 13:04:07 GMT -5 notajudgeyet said:

There are no filler names.

"filler" as in "additional candidates if more than one vacancy is being filled."

May 6, 2008 13:05:47 GMT -5 @boley said:

The myth that everyone is in the top three for at least one location was spread on this board during the lead up to the last SSA hiring. It just isn't true.

And I never said it was absolutely true. I said it was possible.


Geez.......

[jagghagg]

.....I AM a myth.......

[jagghagg]

.....ok, so I can't resist.

*****

May 6, 2008 10:27:33 GMT -5 morgullord said:

If you are on the cert, then your name was in the top three for one city on the list.

May 6, 2008 10:50:53 GMT -5 notajudgeyet said:

That is simply incorrect.

Not necessarily, NAJY. I believe your statement was, (and I am doing this from memory) something to the effect that OPM sends the top 150 names for the cities for which SSA is holding vacancies. By that, I assume you are stating that, since the Register is, indeed, ranked by score, OPM runs down the list (from highest score to lowest score) and takes the first three names that come up for, say, Broken Arrow, Oklahoma; the first three names that come up for Catsup Can, New Jersey; the first three names that come up for Dog Breath, North Dakota; the first three names that come up for Elephant Eye, Indiana…..and so on, and so on, and so on. This would, of course, include those on the list who have said they would go “anywhere.” (Meaning that if the first person on the list said they would go “anywhere” then their name would be pulled for Broken Arrow.) So, looking at Morgullord’s comment, if your score puts you high enough on the Register to be pulled for a Cert to fill a vacancy offered by SSA, and you are the first name pulled for a vacancy, then – in many cases – your name will be in the top three for one city on the list. I guess what that means is if you are a high scorer in – say – the top 50 names on the OPM Register, it is likely that you are also one of the top three to be placed against at least one city of the SSA vacancies.

[happy]

While I am the first to admit that this whole process is truly a mystery to me, are we sure that that's how it is done? Could it be, instead, that they say, "Okay, we have 55 slots to fill, so we gotta have 165 names. Let's go down 165 people on the register, eliminate everyone that doesn't have at least ONE of the cities the Agency has listed. Then, let's backfill those spots by going down the register, ensuring that each candidate we add has at least one city from the list, until we reach a total of 165"? Could that be? I'm serious -- I don't know how my score could EVER be in the top three for any of the cities on my list. They are way too popular.

[nonamouse]

Honestly, it does not matter about the top 3 once you get on the cert unless there is a veteran with a higher score ahead of you. If they really want you and you have enough cities listed, then you will get picked off a cert eventually. If they don't want you, then you may never know why you are always a bridesmaid and never the bride.

[morgullord]

Three blind men tried to describe an elephant.

The first felt the elephant's tail and said, "An elephant is like a rope."
The second felt the elephant's leg and said, "An elephant is like a tree."
The third felt the elephant's trunk and said, "An elephant is like a large snake."

The three blind men then went home, each one convinced that the other two were wrong.

========

Short of water-boarding some people, there is no way to find out just how it is being done.
I am not so much concerned about the process as I am about the result.

[testtaker]

Oy, talk about beating a dead horse ...
(referring to rule of three discussion, not JH being a myth).

I do not think anyone will get any hard and fast answers on this one. I'm with Morgullord. Torture would be the only way of finding out the "behind the doors" process. Just let it go and good luck to us all. As we said last round, que sera, sera.

[privateatty]

Some of us are more invested than others in this process. Certainly, I do not mean to be judgmental, as I was heavily involved to a point that I'm almost embarrassed to admit. We all know as litigators what a friend or foe our egos can be--its a private thing, ain't it?

I had a partner once whose ego was that of a broken peathingy's plume and he was the only one who could not see its' dysfunction.

For those of you who like me who regularly engage in Motions for Reconsideration, I would urge you to try to pretend that this is just another "big case" in which (if you were on the last cert and on this one as well, like yours truly), we are all taking a "shot" to change the decision-maker's mind.

Thank you, testtaker for remembering my musings from weeks ago, que sera sera, indeed. Didn't really take then, but I've made alot of progress. Best wishes on everyone being a little more Zen-like.

[pm]

May 6, 2008 14:18:17 GMT -5 nonamouse said:

Honestly, it does not matter about the top 3 once you get on the cert unless there is a veteran with a higher score ahead of you. If they really want you and you have enough cities listed, then you will get picked off a cert eventually. If they don't want you, then you may never know why you are always a bridesmaid and never the bride.

Of course it matters. If you are number 4, you will not be picked. Don't forget that 2/3 of those on this cert will NOT be picked at this time.

[pm]

If we are to believe some who are posting, there is no difference whether ODAR requests 50 certs for 150 people or one cert for 150 people. The truth is that it makes a significant difference. Different names will be listed.

This is really not complex. There are many people on this cert, as there were on the last, who were not in the top 3 anywhere. As someone noted above, ODAR did not request 50 certs. If they had, then everyone on those certs would be in the top 3. ODAR instead requested one cert for 50 or so cities which gives them added flexibility in picking candidates. This is not a matter of opinion. It is simple fact. OPM can only provide the cert requested. If ODAR requests one cert for 22 cities, then ODAR gets a list of the 66 top scoring candidates who have one or more of those cities listed. OPM does not go city by city because that is NOT what ODAR requested. OPM lists the top 66 candidates (who requested any of the listed cities). OPM provides the cert that is requested.

[jagghagg]

May 6, 2008 22:51:46 GMT -5 pm said:

If ODAR requests one cert for 22 cities, then ODAR gets a list of the 66 top scoring candidates who have one or more of those cities listed. OPM does not go city by city because that is NOT what ODAR requested. OPM lists the top 66 candidates (who requested any of the listed cities). OPM provides the cert that is requested.

Actually, it IS a bit more complex than that. If SSA requests a cert for 22 cities, then OPM must provide a cert of at least 67 (not 66) individuals who have indicated availability for those 22 cities. And, in actuality, OPM will likely provide a cert of at least 88 names on a request for a cert for 22 fills.

Of course, after that, SSA goes into the Star Chamber, dons their cloaks and robes, calls upon the Great Forces of the Federal Personnel Manual, tapes each name to a dart and then throws those darts at a board where the cities for fill are listed......

[morgullord]

Remember also the little matter of veteran's preference. A grab-bag of names does not comply with the law. A request for a cert with names for cities A, B, and C, as opposed to a cert merely requesting 9 names does not meet the minimal requirements of the law. The law regarding veteran's preference can be twisted, manipulated, and squeezed through a tube, but it cannot be ignored.

[jagghagg]

May 7, 2008 9:18:09 GMT -5 @boley said:

ok, vet preference application is an area I don't understand. why wouldn't a cert of the 9 highest scores for three locations (based on the example ablove) not comply with the vet preference rules when the vet preference is included in score?

It would. The Vet Preference gets you two things. The added points to your score (5 or 10) which improves your ranking on the Register with OPM. Once you get on a Cert, AND you are one of the Top Three, you cannot be rejected for that slot in favor of a non-preference eligible. (You CAN, however, be rejected in favor of a preference-eligible who has a lower score than you.)

(Hiiiiiiiiiiii, Boleeeeeeeeeeeey! ;D )