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Post by arkstfan on Oct 31, 2019 16:16:48 GMT -5
180 billable is 45 billable per week, plus 10-40% nonbillable hours, depending on experience level, the week and the workload. So, 60 hour week most weeks. I did have some 90-100 hour weeks at a firm, but those weeks were rare. As a contingent fee attorney facing hourly types I'm not so impressed--try 138 hours one week! We may doze.....but we never close! Know a guy from law school who has to take turns as the "on call" attorney whenever something juicy comes into the answering service and has been known to sign up a client at 2am because they woke up from their post-accident painkillers and saw an ad on TV. Obviously incredibly rare scenario but the firm founder signed his first million dollar sustained verdict client in the wee hours after a call so it's part of the firm culture now. |
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Post by definitionofcustomer on Oct 31, 2019 17:36:54 GMT -5
As a contingent fee attorney facing hourly types I'm not so impressed--try 138 hours one week! We may doze.....but we never close! Know a guy from law school who has to take turns as the "on call" attorney whenever something juicy comes into the answering service and has been known to sign up a client at 2am because they woke up from their post-accident painkillers and saw an ad on TV. Obviously incredibly rare scenario but the firm founder signed his first million dollar sustained verdict client in the wee hours after a call so it's part of the firm culture now. Ah yes, the unmistakable sounds of the opening ceremony of the Overwork Olympics. What a glorious affair. In all seriousness, what is the rationale behind such insane work schedules? I thought I heard about a glut of attorneys? www.nytimes.com/2015/08/25/opinion/too-many-law-students-too-few-legal-jobs.html Maybe instead of 10 people working 80 hour weeks, you get 20 people to work 40 hour weeks? Lower stress levels throughout the organization, and a doubling of good upper-middle class jobs seems like a good combination. Regardless, doesn't seem like a torture chamber should be the bar to clear. |
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Post by Wynona Writer on Oct 31, 2019 21:07:07 GMT -5
Know a guy from law school who has to take turns as the "on call" attorney whenever something juicy comes into the answering service and has been known to sign up a client at 2am because they woke up from their post-accident painkillers and saw an ad on TV. Obviously incredibly rare scenario but the firm founder signed his first million dollar sustained verdict client in the wee hours after a call so it's part of the firm culture now. Ah yes, the unmistakable sounds of the opening ceremony of the Overwork Olympics. What a glorious affair. In all seriousness, what is the rationale behind such insane work schedules? I thought I heard about a glut of attorneys? www.nytimes.com/2015/08/25/opinion/too-many-law-students-too-few-legal-jobs.html Maybe instead of 10 people working 80 hour weeks, you get 20 people to work 40 hour weeks? Lower stress levels throughout the organization, and a doubling of good upper-middle class jobs seems like a good combination. Regardless, doesn't seem like a torture chamber should be the bar to clear. You’ve really answered your own question. Because of the glut of attorneys, they can pay one guy to work 80 hours for much less than they could pay 2 guys to each work 40 hours. And that poor overworked guy won’t quit because he knows there are 20 more just like him who would be happy to take his job. |
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Post by hopefalj on Oct 31, 2019 21:10:56 GMT -5
Know a guy from law school who has to take turns as the "on call" attorney whenever something juicy comes into the answering service and has been known to sign up a client at 2am because they woke up from their post-accident painkillers and saw an ad on TV. Obviously incredibly rare scenario but the firm founder signed his first million dollar sustained verdict client in the wee hours after a call so it's part of the firm culture now. Ah yes, the unmistakable sounds of the opening ceremony of the Overwork Olympics. What a glorious affair. In all seriousness, what is the rationale behind such insane work schedules? I thought I heard about a glut of attorneys? www.nytimes.com/2015/08/25/opinion/too-many-law-students-too-few-legal-jobs.html Maybe instead of 10 people working 80 hour weeks, you get 20 people to work 40 hour weeks? Lower stress levels throughout the organization, and a doubling of good upper-middle class jobs seems like a good combination. Regardless, doesn't seem like a torture chamber should be the bar to clear. Every new attorney needs office space, technology, support staff, malpractice insurance, health insurance, retirement contributions, etc. Double the number of attorneys, and you double the overhead and admin costs. Partners, like most other shareholders, are far more concerned with their pockets than associate morale, especially when, as you note, there is a glut of attorneys willing to take the disgruntled associate's place. Back to the OP, maybe because I was an insider and knew how things worked, I never did 1-3, always did 4-6 (though I have donated a week of leave the last two years, both donations coming at the beginning of the year instead of a panic dump at the end). I have and will continue to do #7. With respect to hearings getting cancelled, there are ways around unnecessarily delaying a reschedule. Reps can waive 75 days, and you can add those cases to an existing docket (you've already reviewed it presumably, so it's not a ton of work) or do a one-off by adding it on the end of another judge's docket on a non-hearing day. I do that regularly when I've had weather cancellations. Unrepped cases are tougher for obvious reasons, but most people understand if you're sick or a family emergency comes up. I certainly don't have an issue postponing a case for claimants when they ask for those reasons. |
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Post by Legal Beagle on Nov 1, 2019 19:44:33 GMT -5
One big solution would be to require even a nominal filing fee for the second or higher application, which should the claimant be successful, it will be refunded. Or assessing costs to those who apply, then not show up for their hearing because they are working and can't be bothered to dismiss, so they waste $5,000 of taxpayer money. I keep up with those numbers, and the stats are shocking.
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Post by arkstfan on Nov 4, 2019 14:05:45 GMT -5
One big solution would be to require even a nominal filing fee for the second or higher application, which should the claimant be successful, it will be refunded. Or assessing costs to those who apply, then not show up for their hearing because they are working and can't be bothered to dismiss, so they waste $5,000 of taxpayer money. I keep up with those numbers, and the stats are shocking. Friend suggested years ago that it be a revolver. Once you fire six shots (applications) you are done. |
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Post by trp888 on Nov 5, 2019 9:29:07 GMT -5
Having to hoard all our sick/annual leave in the anticipation of a medical emergency, or something less dramatic such as oooo childbirth .... is not an option for many employees. I find it absolutely ridiculous that the Fed Govt does not provide any PAID family leave. And I don’t count the “donate your leave to me please” process a viable alternative. I have depleted all the sick/annual leave (after hoarding for 7 or so years), not because I wanted to take a vacation, but because I wanted a child. If I want more than 1 child? My choices are unpaid leave (🙄🙄), reliance on the donation of others for 6-8weeks mac, or no leave. If I had a medical condition, was involved in a serious car accident, or had a family member come down with a sickness. I still have no leave. I would not be surprised if the large majority of employees with little or no leave banked, have very young children, a chronic illness, or an ill family member. All of which further prevent working credit or Comp/OT (which is not being offered at this time). #3-4 I agree wholeheartedly with. The exception is carry close to a 240 annual leave balance if you can. Take advantage of credit (and comp for DWs) to build to annual leave balance. Once you get 240, definitely take all annual leave above 240. One should try to build a 240 annual leave balance for retirement and emergency purposes. This is much easier if one is in the 8 hour per period category. (All of you in that category are so lucky!!!) There are two sorts of employee based on my management time in state government. Those who are in use or lose or on pace for it and those who burn it when they get it. I would get monthly reports of my staff's leave and about half I'd have to remind to take some time off and about half I'd have to remind that they would be well served developing a balance because our "leave bank" wouldn't even consider your application if you didn't have at least thirty hours at the start of your emergency and was pretty tight with what they'd dole out if you didn't have 80 hours at the start. I spent several years using nearly no annual trying to get back to use or lose that I had with the state. When I had a health emergency I missed most of 12 weeks and still had four weeks of sick in the bank when I came back. THAT is peace of mind. |
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Post by tigerlily on Nov 5, 2019 9:57:25 GMT -5
Having to hoard all our sick/annual leave in the anticipation of a medical emergency, or something less dramatic such as oooo childbirth .... is not an option for many employees. I find it absolutely ridiculous that the Fed Govt does not provide any PAID family leave. And I don’t count the “donate your leave to me please” process a viable alternative. I have depleted all the sick/annual leave (after hoarding for 7 or so years), not because I wanted to take a vacation, but because I wanted a child. If I want more than 1 child? My choices are unpaid leave (🙄🙄), reliance on the donation of others for 6-8weeks mac, or no leave. If I had a medical condition, was involved in a serious car accident, or had a family member come down with a sickness. I still have no leave. I would not be surprised if the large majority of employees with little or no leave banked, have very young children, a chronic illness, or an ill family member. All of which further prevent working credit or Comp/OT (which is not being offered at this time). Very much this. I was unexpectedly pregnant shortly after starting with the feds four years ago, and I hoarded everything I could for maternity leave. We could not afford unpaid time off, so I advanced what I had to to at least hit 8 weeks. I have only recently gotten out of the hole on sick leave, because with four young children, someone is always sick, and I have had to keep advancing; I never even think to use sick leave for myself unless it's an in-office day, and even then, I will work basically near-death to save the hours if I think I can isolate myself enough from my co-workers. I work credit whenever I can, but again, with four young children, that isn't always an option. We also live a day's drive from any family, so we travel during the holidays and get to see grandparents and cousins twice a year at best, so I am still hoarding annual leave in order to make that happen. Between sick kids, holiday travel, childcare issues, and school schedules/wanting to chaperone a field trip for my kids once a year, I don't see myself ever accumulating a cushion of any kind of leave. And it's maddening. I am terrified of having an emergency, as I have nothing to fall back on. EDIT NOTE BY PIXIE: Tigerlily: I fixed it for you. Your text should begin after the word "quote" and the bracket sign. That way you are quoting the prior poster, and your comment appears outside the quote box. The way you did it, your comment appeared inside the quote box and appeared to be the comments of the poster you were quoting. Pixie |
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Post by foghorn on Nov 6, 2019 12:46:19 GMT -5
All valid comments but fewer and fewer companies or firms provide a set leave policy. For attorneys, it's up to the firm. However note that many have a "senior associate" track which means if you believe that family comes before firm, or health before firm, you are not going to make partner. I've even seen articles recently saying just this!
So while the ABA and others can--and rightly--talk about the importance of mental health and life balance, in reality you may well find more of that in the government than in private practice. Some corporate counsel's offices may also have more generosity, but there would be limits there, too.
Talk is cheap......and so are many legal organizations.
That being said, I gather that in regional or local offices that attorneys cover for each other if family requires it or sudden sickness, more so it is said than in DC. Likely that varies by office & agency.
I am reminded of a certain Federal Judge, no longer on the bench, who made a big deal about what a family person they were. When a colleague from my opposition's wife went into labor he asked for adjustment of a trial date. He was given 24 hours.
But what would you expect from a profession that still has people who like to say "the law is a harsh mistress." Hmm, what's the subtext there? More than a few glaring Freudian slips in that statement.
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Post by aa7 on Nov 6, 2019 15:43:01 GMT -5
All valid comments but fewer and fewer companies or firms provide a set leave policy. For attorneys, it's up to the firm. However note that many have a "senior associate" track which means if you believe that family comes before firm, or health before firm, you are not going to make partner. I've even seen articles recently saying just this! So while the ABA and others can--and rightly--talk about the importance of mental health and life balance, in reality you may well find more of that in the government than in private practice. Some corporate counsel's offices may also have more generosity, but there would be limits there, too. Talk is cheap......and so are many legal organizations. That being said, I gather that in regional or local offices that attorneys cover for each other if family requires it or sudden sickness, more so it is said than in DC. Likely that varies by office & agency. I am reminded of a certain Federal Judge, no longer on the bench, who made a big deal about what a family person they were. When a colleague from my opposition's wife went into labor he asked for adjustment of a trial date. He was given 24 hours. But what would you expect from a profession that still has people who like to say "the law is a harsh mistress." Hmm, what's the subtext there? More than a few glaring Freudian slips in that statement. But you just can't compare federal service to private sector. The whole reason I left litigation and make 1/2 to 1/3 less than my compatriots who stayed, is for the "work/life" balance. Why would I not still be doing intellectually stimulating, groundbreaking work for twice as much money, if not to be able to take parental leave, sick leave when I need it, be home on weekends, and drive to my kids' field trips? Take that away, and this job has no enticement. |
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Post by tigerlily on Nov 6, 2019 16:37:22 GMT -5
But you just can't compare federal service to private sector. The whole reason I left litigation and make 1/2 to 1/3 less than my compatriots who stayed, is for the "work/life" balance. Why would I not still be doing intellectually stimulating, groundbreaking work for twice as much money, if not to be able to take parental leave, sick leave when I need it, be home on weekends, and drive to my kids' field trips? Take that away, and this job has no enticement.
[/quote]
This exactly.
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Post by bippity on Nov 6, 2019 20:17:20 GMT -5
"make 1/2 to 1/3 less than my compatriots"
It isn't 1/2 to 1/3 less for attorneys at SSA. Most are capped at GS-12. Did you see the articles about the married Jones Day associates who were fired for suing because the husband didn't get the same length of paternity leave that his wife got for maternity leave? They were each making over 500k, plus bonuses. I make ~20% of that, my bonus was under $500 for FY19, and the govt has NO paid maternity leave. My salary hasn't kept up with inflation or the market. I barely make more than the neighborhood kid who posted on NextDoor that he was available to teach music lessons... at $40 per hour. The salaries for attorneys at SSA are depressed even when compared to other agencies that ladder up to 15 for non-supervisory attorney. And yes, I'm looking, as is every atty in my office.
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Post by natethegreat on Nov 6, 2019 20:29:13 GMT -5
"make 1/2 to 1/3 less than my compatriots" It isn't 1/2 to 1/3 less for attorneys at SSA. Most are capped at GS-12. Did you see the articles about the married Jones Day associates who were fired for suing because the husband didn't get the same length of paternity leave that his wife got for maternity leave? They were each making over 500k, plus bonuses. I make ~20% of that, my bonus was under $500 for FY19, and the govt has NO paid maternity leave. My salary hasn't kept up with inflation or the market. I barely make more than the neighborhood kid who posted on NextDoor that he was available to teach music lessons... at $40 per hour. The salaries for attorneys at SSA are depressed even when compared to other agencies that ladder up to 15 for non-supervisory attorney. And yes, I'm looking, as is every atty in my office. Yep. Doesn't help when AAs and paralegals are both GS12s... |
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Post by jimmy224 on Nov 6, 2019 20:45:17 GMT -5
"make 1/2 to 1/3 less than my compatriots" It isn't 1/2 to 1/3 less for attorneys at SSA. Most are capped at GS-12. Did you see the articles about the married Jones Day associates who were fired for suing because the husband didn't get the same length of paternity leave that his wife got for maternity leave? They were each making over 500k, plus bonuses. I make ~20% of that, my bonus was under $500 for FY19, and the govt has NO paid maternity leave. My salary hasn't kept up with inflation or the market. I barely make more than the neighborhood kid who posted on NextDoor that he was available to teach music lessons... at $40 per hour. The salaries for attorneys at SSA are depressed even when compared to other agencies that ladder up to 15 for non-supervisory attorney. And yes, I'm looking, as is every atty in my office. Yep. Doesn't help when AAs and paralegals are both GS12s... On a positive note, looks like we are getting a pay raise next year www.govexec.com/pay-benefits/2019/09/details-presidents-proposed-2020-pay-raise-and-more/159809/ |
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Post by aa7 on Nov 7, 2019 12:44:52 GMT -5
"make 1/2 to 1/3 less than my compatriots" It isn't 1/2 to 1/3 less for attorneys at SSA. Most are capped at GS-12. Did you see the articles about the married Jones Day associates who were fired for suing because the husband didn't get the same length of paternity leave that his wife got for maternity leave? They were each making over 500k, plus bonuses. I make ~20% of that, my bonus was under $500 for FY19, and the govt has NO paid maternity leave. My salary hasn't kept up with inflation or the market. I barely make more than the neighborhood kid who posted on NextDoor that he was available to teach music lessons... at $40 per hour. The salaries for attorneys at SSA are depressed even when compared to other agencies that ladder up to 15 for non-supervisory attorney. And yes, I'm looking, as is every atty in my office.Oh hello I know. GS-12 here. But I was being conservative for sake of not appearing hyperbolic. My comparison was just based on the local/regional small to mid-sized firm associate salary.
And just further thoughts on this in case Saul is reading (lol), this disparity between public and private attorneys (and the extreme production pressures) is truly driving away just the type of employees the agency should want. After this spate of recent hires, many of the "good" new attorneys that were hired have already left. What are we left with....eek. At this point, the only reason for a good attorney to stay is work/life balance. When I started that was not the case.
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Post by statman on Nov 10, 2019 17:50:38 GMT -5
If we are getting a 2.6 per cent raise, it must be an election is coming soon.
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Post by superalj on Nov 10, 2019 18:02:42 GMT -5
You sure about that 2.6 raise next January? I'm trying to set aside $ for a shutdown either this month or after the next CDR expires.
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Post by christina on Nov 10, 2019 20:32:57 GMT -5
Rumor is they are looking at a 1 year CR, which would mean no raise for another year. Just a rumor though. Better than a shutdown |
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Post by generalsherman on Nov 10, 2019 21:01:51 GMT -5
I’m no expert but didn’t the President authorize a raise? Won’t that go into effect even if it’s just a CR?
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Post by bartleby on Nov 11, 2019 11:12:47 GMT -5
Wait, what is that you say Bart, the sky is falling??? No way Bart, the rewrite of our position description doing away with the APA is nothing to worry about...… My friends, this could have been the best job in the world, but as long as you have non-lawyers managing the largest law firm in the world it will never be good. They don't understand the need for judicial independence in that we are supposed to be an independent entity between the applicant and the Agency. The APA says we will have no supervision or performance evaluations from the Agency and yet they are doing it with focused reviews which are usually caused by their own rules, regulations, POMS and Hallex that are confusing, contradictory, and conflicting... When I attempted to explain the time spent trying to interpret this mess I was told I was not to interpret it, but just to apply it... LOL. I was also told by management that I was not a real Judge and that was why I did not get judicial support from staff... I am not sure where the Agency is headed, but, yes, Dorothy, the sky is falling and I fear your Union leadership is clueless so you best get braced for the storm. Love and Merry Christmas to all, until I check my naughty list again... 71stretch, enjoy your retirement.
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