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Post by lurkerbelow on May 7, 2020 14:18:59 GMT -5
Client interactions, strangely, were my favorite part of the job (with some exceptions, obviously). I'm not going to lie and say that this doesn't stink, but at least we are currently among the most well-paid phone operators in the country.
I'm not going to get into a back and forth on the other part of your post, respectfully.
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Post by uboat on May 7, 2020 16:17:35 GMT -5
Still keeping SAA's in my region, or at least this SAA, in the dark. There were several SAA's at our regional training today and, despite the fact that the trainers have universally said that "decision-writers" will be doing the calls, I've still not heard anything one way or the other from local management. It will be a bitter pill to swallow IMO if any SAA's get this s**t detail. LOL... this is beyond funny. A SAA complaining about potentially having to actually do work instead of doing on the record (OTR) reviews. It was absurd that they took SAAs off of writing in the first place. An OTR is probably the easiest task for any attorney in the agency. You skim evidence put brief summaries and have to do no real writing. There is no reason why SAA shouldn't have to make the calls too. SAAs being so self entitled and expecting to do no work is why I've been stuck as a GS-12 for 10 plus years. Whatever.
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Post by nylawyer on May 7, 2020 17:45:07 GMT -5
I'm giving laweredbylaws a pass because this enhanced outreach detail is so so so awful. I have a new found respect for the Agency's field office and front line workers. It is understandable to feel bitter towards the SAA's who have been spared this task. In my previous life as a litigation attorney, the client management and interaction with opposing counsel were the parts I most detested. Now that is the totality of my job. At least before I was taking depositions, managing trials and arguing briefs. Now it's just a daily slog. Can you elaborate? What's so bad about the outreach work? As I understand it, it's pretty straightforward. As an aside, it mystifies me why the SAA who recommends the OTR doesn't write it if the ALJ agrees. That has to be the single biggest waste of time I can think of- three different people have to go through the entire file.
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Post by lawyeredbylaws on May 7, 2020 18:20:22 GMT -5
LOL... this is beyond funny. A SAA complaining about potentially having to actually do work instead of doing on the record (OTR) reviews. It was absurd that they took SAAs off of writing in the first place. An OTR is probably the easiest task for any attorney in the agency. You skim evidence put brief summaries and have to do no real writing. There is no reason why SAA shouldn't have to make the calls too. SAAs being so self entitled and expecting to do no work is why I've been stuck as a GS-12 for 10 plus years. You say it like having a job for 10 plus years at a GS-12 pay band is a bad thing. Have you not gotten step increases and raises? Vacation time? I have classmates who would trade their most precious possessions for that type of job security, especially right now. I've been a DW and a GS-12 for several years as well, not as long as you, but enough to see a fair bit. And I have been a member of this forum for some time as well. This is the first post I have seen on this forum where I disagree with everything an individual has said. Especially the last sentence. This has nothing to do with fellow GS-12s. If you think its cool for SAAs to do less work than AAs and get paid an entire GS level more, I guess that's your perogative. Come back to me after you have been on a detail as group supervisor and you have had to do babysit SAAs, cause they didn't have DWPI and would be unproductive, or edit SAAs work because their decisions weren't up to the ALJs standards. Or how about you got to watch almost your entire office get promoted to SAAs regardless of merit because the union wanted it, which has basically led to the elimination of being able to become a SAA anymore. Then after they eliminate the promotion, you watch the union waste time and reserources defending SAAs from getting DWPI.
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Post by seaside on May 7, 2020 18:36:47 GMT -5
You say it like having a job for 10 plus years at a GS-12 pay band is a bad thing. Have you not gotten step increases and raises? Vacation time? I have classmates who would trade their most precious possessions for that type of job security, especially right now. I've been a DW and a GS-12 for several years as well, not as long as you, but enough to see a fair bit. And I have been a member of this forum for some time as well. This is the first post I have seen on this forum where I disagree with everything an individual has said. Especially the last sentence. This has nothing to do with fellow GS-12s. If you think its cool for SAAs to do less work than AAs and get paid an entire GS level more, I guess that's your perogative. Come back to me after you have been on a detail as group supervisor and you have had to do babysit SAAs, cause they didn't have DWPI and would be unproductive, or edit SAAs work because their decisions weren't up to the ALJs standards. Or how about you got to watch almost your entire office get promoted to SAAs regardless of merit because the union wanted it, which has basically led to the elimination of being able to become a SAA anymore. Then after they eliminate the promotion, you watch the union waste time and reserources defending SAAs from getting DWPI. I hope no one takes this bait.
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Post by lurkerbelow on May 7, 2020 19:58:10 GMT -5
I sure ain't taking that bait.
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Post by roymcavoy on May 7, 2020 22:18:37 GMT -5
This has nothing to do with fellow GS-12s. If you think its cool for SAAs to do less work than AAs and get paid an entire GS level more, I guess that's your perogative. Come back to me after you have been on a detail as group supervisor and you have had to do babysit SAAs, cause they didn't have DWPI and would be unproductive, or edit SAAs work because their decisions weren't up to the ALJs standards. Or how about you got to watch almost your entire office get promoted to SAAs regardless of merit because the union wanted it, which has basically led to the elimination of being able to become a SAA anymore. Then after they eliminate the promotion, you watch the union waste time and reserources defending SAAs from getting DWPI. I hope no one takes this bait. I’ll take it. Like any jobs, there are good and bad everywhere. I have worked in multiple offices, and the range of SAAs I have worked with have ranged from a former litigation partner who earned $200k per year in her former life and was smarter than everyone else in the office (probably combined) to an SAA who did not know how to operate the internet at home. Same goes for AAs/PAs, ALJs, etc. Painting with a broad brush is simply inaccurate
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Post by natethegreat on May 8, 2020 6:27:09 GMT -5
I hope no one takes this bait. I’ll take it. Like any jobs, there are good and bad everywhere. I have worked in multiple offices, and the range of SAAs I have worked with have ranged from a former litigation partner who earned $200k per year in her former life and was smarter than everyone else in the office (probably combined) to an SAA who did not know how to operate the internet at home. Same goes for AAs/PAs, ALJs, etc. Painting with a broad brush is simply inaccurate
I would concur painting with a broad brush is generally inadvisable. I would also concur there are good and bad AAs/PAs, SAAs, and ALJs. One distinction I would note however that can make the presence of "bad" SAAs a bit more frustrating is unlike AAs/PAs and ALJs, SAAs are exclusively hired from internal candidates (or have been since I joined SSA). With external candidates, it would appear much easier for someone to appear better on paper than what they are in real life. With SAAs, since the candidates are internal, promotion of unqualified individuals would appear to put greater onus on Agency management. It seems to be well know within the ranks of SSA that some offices promoted AAs to SAAs for reasons unrelated to their actual work quality.
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Post by nylawyer on May 8, 2020 7:13:04 GMT -5
Can you elaborate? What's so bad about the outreach work? As I understand it, it's pretty straightforward.[1] As an aside, it mystifies me why the SAA who recommends the OTR doesn't write it if the ALJ agrees. That has to be the single biggest waste of time I can think of [2] -three different people have to go through the entire file. [1]. Disagree. It is not straightforward. Call an unrep'd claimant demanding that they be in a room alone and no one else is in there with them, ensure they are not recording the phone call, and convince them you are not a fraudster while asking them their "identification verification" PII questions, even before you even get into the subject matter of the call. Then when they don't believe you, give them your HO office phone number and your extension and ask them to call you back. If they still don't believe you, tell them to find the last letter from your office that they were sent, and to look at the phone number on the letter for verification, and to call you right back. If they are able to or manage to do that, then require them to give you the email address that they have access to so you can email them a .pdf copy of their file and explain the username/password process to access it. If they manage to and are willing to successfully do that, then schedule a "convenient" time for you to call them back after they have had time to review the file. Call them on that day and at that time and hope they answer, then hope further that they accessed and reviewed their file. If they did, then go through the claimant's file with them, exhibit by exhibit, and explain what the file holds. Ask them if the file is complete, or whether there is outstanding evidence. If they have been to a doctor after the date of the latest submitted medical record, find out where, when, who, etc. Also ask if they will ensure/would submit an SSA-827, consent to release information to SSA (which they don't have), so the agency can request their medical records. [Heck, why doesn't the agency just go ahead and make them represent the claimant at the hearing?] [2] Totally Agree. The SAA whom reviews the file for a pre-determination of whether the record evidence is currently sufficient, or will become substantially sufficient with little development, for an On-The-Record favorable decision should write said decision. Absolutely agree it is duplicative and a substantial waste of time, but for the further consideration of workload management, the collective hearing office's DW's DWPI, or some other extrinsic factor militating against the assignment of the decision writing to the SAA. It is very apparent that whomever in HQ or OHO who decided the specifics of, and approved the implementation of, the Covid-19 Enhanced Outreach (CEO) guidelines have neither been a claimant's representative nor an SSA decision writer, much less a senior attorney advisor. I had not thought of the problem with getting the claimant to believe you are from the SSA. Particularly since I am pretty sure I've seen messages from SSA saying no one will ever call you and ask for your social security number.
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Post by roymcavoy on May 8, 2020 7:18:54 GMT -5
[1]. Disagree. It is not straightforward. Call an unrep'd claimant demanding that they be in a room alone and no one else is in there with them, ensure they are not recording the phone call, and convince them you are not a fraudster while asking them their "identification verification" PII questions, even before you even get into the subject matter of the call. Then when they don't believe you, give them your HO office phone number and your extension and ask them to call you back. If they still don't believe you, tell them to find the last letter from your office that they were sent, and to look at the phone number on the letter for verification, and to call you right back. If they are able to or manage to do that, then require them to give you the email address that they have access to so you can email them a .pdf copy of their file and explain the username/password process to access it. If they manage to and are willing to successfully do that, then schedule a "convenient" time for you to call them back after they have had time to review the file. Call them on that day and at that time and hope they answer, then hope further that they accessed and reviewed their file. If they did, then go through the claimant's file with them, exhibit by exhibit, and explain what the file holds. Ask them if the file is complete, or whether there is outstanding evidence. If they have been to a doctor after the date of the latest submitted medical record, find out where, when, who, etc. Also ask if they will ensure/would submit an SSA-827, consent to release information to SSA (which they don't have), so the agency can request their medical records. [Heck, why doesn't the agency just go ahead and make them represent the claimant at the hearing?] [2] Totally Agree. The SAA whom reviews the file for a pre-determination of whether the record evidence is currently sufficient, or will become substantially sufficient with little development, for an On-The-Record favorable decision should write said decision. Absolutely agree it is duplicative and a substantial waste of time, but for the further consideration of workload management, the collective hearing office's DW's DWPI, or some other extrinsic factor militating against the assignment of the decision writing to the SAA. It is very apparent that whomever in HQ or OHO who decided the specifics of, and approved the implementation of, the Covid-19 Enhanced Outreach (CEO) guidelines have neither been a claimant's representative nor an SSA decision writer, much less a senior attorney advisor. I had not thought of the problem with getting the claimant to believe you are from the SSA. Particularly since I am pretty sure I've seen messages from SSA saying no one will ever call you and ask for your social security number. this times 1000. And the soft phones we are supposed to use because they show up as “SSA” on caller IDs... I called my cell and it identifies only as a caller from the city where my office is located.
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Post by generalsherman on May 8, 2020 7:40:43 GMT -5
The number *my* softphone calls from isn’t even the same city where my office is located. I have mixed feelings about the outreach. I feel like a total clown having to read from a script, especially with the reps who have undoubtedly heard it all before at this point. As for calling claimants, I used to be a rep, so I’m used to talking to them, but it’s somewhat more difficult now because I can’t even offer any platitudes, especially if the claimant doesn’t have a strong case. Anyway, I will do my job because it’s my job, but I sure hope this isn’t a permanent feature.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2020 8:27:39 GMT -5
I'm giving laweredbylaws a pass because this enhanced outreach detail is so so so awful. I have a new found respect for the Agency's field office and front line workers. It is understandable to feel bitter towards the SAA's who have been spared this task. In my previous life as a litigation attorney, the client management and interaction with opposing counsel were the parts I most detested. Now that is the totality of my job. At least before I was taking depositions, managing trials and arguing briefs. Now it's just a daily slog. Can you elaborate? What's so bad about the outreach work? As I understand it, it's pretty straightforward. As an aside, it mystifies me why the SAA who recommends the OTR doesn't write it if the ALJ agrees. That has to be the single biggest waste of time I can think of- three different people have to go through the entire file. I’ve gotten several cases this week that were reviewed by two different AA/SAAs in a short period of time, had a hearing with an ALJ, and now are with me, the 4th person to review and digest the evidence, for decision writing.
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Post by jagvet on May 8, 2020 11:27:11 GMT -5
I certainly would not respond to a call like that. It hasn't happened for a while, but I used to get robocalls like this (paraphrasing from memory): "This is the Department of Social Security. Your Social Security account number has been locked because of fraudulent activity. You must press 1 to be connected with an operator to fix it. If you do not respond...." [all kinds of evil things will happen, including your hair and teeth falling out, your car repossessed, your mother-in-law killed, etc, etc.].
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Post by nappyloxs on May 8, 2020 12:24:02 GMT -5
This thread to an interesting turn.
No need for SSA/OHO to downsize. Fyi, I think the thread means OHO not SSA as FO is already to scheduled to hire 1000s of employees in 2020. Plenty of employees in OHO are going to leave or retire as life gets back to the new normal. I have already seen retirement age employees in other jobs that are reopening decide to retire instead of going back to work. Fulltime telework might open some eyes about retirement life. I also know OHO employees who want to leave and just waiting for job openings to happen.
I doubt many SAAs or ALJs will leave for work reasons while plenty of AAs will. Not sure about all the posts about SAAs vs AAs. There are good and bad in both positions. Lack of promotion opportunities suck for both. I see too many people who just want promotions and don’t do anything to try to better their skills. I have been using the CEO process to try and encourage all my employee to better their skills. Better communication skills with reps and claimants. Better technology skills by learning how to actually CPMS, order development items on their own, create other dgs documents, learn pcom and how to run queries on their own, what to look for in case to see what is missing or needs further development. We had training on all these different topics as part of CEO.
I always encourage my employees to increase their skills, yet very few do. When AWT became available, especially this FY for AAs, I told them I am fine if they want to take a few hours each month to do training in welearn/lms, just let me know in advance and they can enter in AWT. You know how many have taken that offer? 0! When I was an AA I was always trying to learn and share new information. Some SAAs took my advance on learn certain topics as part of SAA reviews. Some have also applied for details this year. One got picked up for the OAO detail. It was easy to write my recommendation for them because I just discussed how they demonstrated an ability to be productive; learn new tech, policies, etc.; and demonstrated outstanding knowledge and skills, and more. They did more than just draft a case review and move onto the next one. As a manager, you always want your employees to develop and it is the greatest part of the my job to see them develop. My point is make the most of the CEO process if you are an AA. It is a great opportunity to serve the public and expand your skills.
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Post by Wynona Writer on May 8, 2020 13:15:42 GMT -5
We are supposed to call the rep for every single claimant and read form the same script. For these national firms, I would imagine that they are fielding calls from decision writers all across the country and hearing the same script over and over again. Won’t be long before they stop answering the phone all together.
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Post by uboat on May 8, 2020 13:36:22 GMT -5
This thread to an interesting turn. No need for SSA/OHO to downsize. Fyi, I think the thread means OHO not SSA ..... Yes, I did mean OHO and not SSA. Strange, as I am usually very precise when I communicate. Cabin fever must be getting to me.
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Post by toast4u on May 8, 2020 19:36:13 GMT -5
This thread to an interesting turn. No need for SSA/OHO to downsize. Fyi, I think the thread means OHO not SSA as FO is already to scheduled to hire 1000s of employees in 2020. Plenty of employees in OHO are going to leave or retire as life gets back to the new normal. I have already seen retirement age employees in other jobs that are reopening decide to retire instead of going back to work. Fulltime telework might open some eyes about retirement life. I also know OHO employees who want to leave and just waiting for job openings to happen. I doubt many SAAs or ALJs will leave for work reasons while plenty of AAs will. Not sure about all the posts about SAAs vs AAs. There are good and bad in both positions. Lack of promotion opportunities suck for both. I see too many people who just want promotions and don’t do anything to try to better their skills. I have been using the CEO process to try and encourage all my employee to better their skills. Better communication skills with reps and claimants. Better technology skills by learning how to actually CPMS, order development items on their own, create other dgs documents, learn pcom and how to run queries on their own, what to look for in case to see what is missing or needs further development. We had training on all these different topics as part of CEO. I always encourage my employees to increase their skills, yet very few do. When AWT became available, especially this FY for AAs, I told them I am fine if they want to take a few hours each month to do training in welearn/lms, just let me know in advance and they can enter in AWT. You know how many have taken that offer? 0! When I was an AA I was always trying to learn and share new information. Some SAAs took my advance on learn certain topics as part of SAA reviews. Some have also applied for details this year. One got picked up for the OAO detail. It was easy to write my recommendation for them because I just discussed how they demonstrated an ability to be productive; learn new tech, policies, etc.; and demonstrated outstanding knowledge and skills, and more. They did more than just draft a case review and move onto the next one. As a manager, you always want your employees to develop and it is the greatest part of the my job to see them develop. My point is make the most of the CEO process if you are an AA. It is a great opportunity to serve the public and expand your skills. Sadly, in my office we are not encouraged to take advantage of AWT for training or research purposes. Interesting thing is, it's extremely difficult for a DW to get a 5 on a PAC's in "interpersonal skills." I, as well as many of my coworkers, are repeatedly told that to get a 5 we need to participate more, develop our skills, or engage others. As a DW, there are rarely opportunities to develop our skills or engage others with the constant drumbeat of DWPI. In fact, there is scant opportunity to perform vital research on regulations, guidelines, rulings, or other pertinent information that could not only develop our skills, but improve our decisions overall. Good for you for encouraging your employees to develop their skills. Too bad your employees are not taking advantage of the opportunity.
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Post by oddis on May 8, 2020 21:59:41 GMT -5
The sad fact is, and it pains me to say this, neither DWs nor SAAs are attorneys at this point. The agency has become a complete deathtrap for a legal career. Don't believe me? Try and escape.
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Post by nappyloxs on May 8, 2020 23:32:52 GMT -5
This thread to an interesting turn. No need for SSA/OHO to downsize. Fyi, I think the thread means OHO not SSA as FO is already to scheduled to hire 1000s of employees in 2020. Plenty of employees in OHO are going to leave or retire as life gets back to the new normal. I have already seen retirement age employees in other jobs that are reopening decide to retire instead of going back to work. Fulltime telework might open some eyes about retirement life. I also know OHO employees who want to leave and just waiting for job openings to happen. I doubt many SAAs or ALJs will leave for work reasons while plenty of AAs will. Not sure about all the posts about SAAs vs AAs. There are good and bad in both positions. Lack of promotion opportunities suck for both. I see too many people who just want promotions and don’t do anything to try to better their skills. I have been using the CEO process to try and encourage all my employee to better their skills. Better communication skills with reps and claimants. Better technology skills by learning how to actually CPMS, order development items on their own, create other dgs documents, learn pcom and how to run queries on their own, what to look for in case to see what is missing or needs further development. We had training on all these different topics as part of CEO. I always encourage my employees to increase their skills, yet very few do. When AWT became available, especially this FY for AAs, I told them I am fine if they want to take a few hours each month to do training in welearn/lms, just let me know in advance and they can enter in AWT. You know how many have taken that offer? 0! When I was an AA I was always trying to learn and share new information. Some SAAs took my advance on learn certain topics as part of SAA reviews. Some have also applied for details this year. One got picked up for the OAO detail. It was easy to write my recommendation for them because I just discussed how they demonstrated an ability to be productive; learn new tech, policies, etc.; and demonstrated outstanding knowledge and skills, and more. They did more than just draft a case review and move onto the next one. As a manager, you always want your employees to develop and it is the greatest part of the my job to see them develop. My point is make the most of the CEO process if you are an AA. It is a great opportunity to serve the public and expand your skills. Sadly, in my office we are not encouraged to take advantage of AWT for training or research purposes. Interesting thing is, it's extremely difficult for a DW to get a 5 on a PAC's in "interpersonal skills." I, as well as many of my coworkers, are repeatedly told that to get a 5 we need to participate more, develop our skills, or engage others. As a DW, there are rarely opportunities to develop our skills or engage others with the constant drumbeat of DWPI. In fact, there is scant opportunity to perform vital research on regulations, guidelines, rulings, or other pertinent information that could not only develop our skills, but improve our decisions overall. Good for you for encouraging your employees to develop their skills. Too bad your employees are not taking advantage of the opportunity. Thanks. All employees are the most valuable asset in any company. I will just leave it at that for the moment. As to interpersonal skills, the element includes written communication and public communication. Decisions are written communications to the public. Plus, you email judges, your supervisors, and others. Sorry, I can’t recall Level 5 standards at the moment since I won’t be working on my until the end of the month. Interpersonal skills is one of the most important professional skills but also one of the worst performance elements. You can be a great person with a great personality, but it doesn’t always raise to level 5 in PACS. By far the element worst element to rate. I don’t hand out 5s and plenty of employees have been pissed at me over PACS. Shoot, I don’t care about my own PACS and sometimes get a bit upset at one of my element ratings. Complete your self-assessments. Managers do not know everything on every employee. I do not care about my own PACS, so I don’t complete one. If you care about PACS, you should complete a self-assessment for a variety of reasons. One of the biggest is just old school professional advice. Make your supervisor or manager’s job easier. Writing a self assessment is pretty close to writing PACS. I am not saying you will get straight 5s by doing so, but your supervisor will consider Items they forgot or did not know. As to AWT, policy research does not require prior supervisor approval. I believe it should be case specific, but still does not require prior approval. Listen to your supervisor advice. If they say you need to participate, develop, and engage, ask them how you can do so, ask for time to work on development, volunteer for everything, ask how or if you can learn how to do things. Tell them you are trying to do as they suggested during your PACS meeting. If they say no, workload don’t allow it. You remind them of that in your self-assessment. I have a friend in different job make a great suggestion for their employer. They spelled out the process, pros, and cons. Employer shot it down. I knew it would get shot down as they were telling me what happened. Yet, I told them to put it in their self-assessment to show they demonstrated initiative and ABC. Just because their idea got shot down, does not mean it did not demonstrate job knowledge, participation, interpersonal skills, business results to use PACS terms. They just needed to tell their supervisor how it did. Never expect someone to do anything for you. I forgot to mention the only reason I told them to tell me in advance was so I could make sure to adjust the workloads accordingly to account for any downtime.
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Post by hamster on May 9, 2020 0:27:06 GMT -5
The sad fact is, and it pains me to say this, neither DWs nor SAAs are attorneys at this point. The agency has become a complete deathtrap for a legal career. Don't believe me? Try and escape. Good thing ALJs at least are still attorneys! Um, right?
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