|
|
Post by jagvet on Oct 14, 2021 19:08:25 GMT -5
Oh, boy. This thread is probably a good barometer of the incoming wave of controversy over the federal vaccine mandates. Federal and state judges are already granting or denying injunctions against state vaccine mandates. There are a bunch of cases. I have no doubt that the EO for federal employees and OSHA rules for employers will have a number of contradictory orders forthcoming.
|
|
|
|
Post by toast4u on Oct 14, 2021 19:34:17 GMT -5
Oh, boy. This thread is probably a good barometer of the incoming wave of controversy over the federal vaccine mandates. Federal and state judges are already granting or denying injunctions against state vaccine mandates. There are a bunch of cases. I have no doubt that the EO for federal employees and OSHA rules for employers will have a number of contradictory orders forthcoming. The way I see it, I get to keep working from home while these things are bargained with the union and ironed out in the courts. I still have tags hanging on a few articles of clothing that I planned on wearing to work in early 2020. I now have an expansive wardrobe of leggings, summer dresses, and flip flops. I prefer my new attire over the old and I don't miss the 45-minute commute. |
|
Happy_GS
Full Member
I can do this all day
Posts: 34
|
Post by Happy_GS on Oct 14, 2021 19:36:15 GMT -5
No need to apologize. You are new here and don't know the history. Now you know about the apostrophe. It has taken us years to get to the point where it isn't abused on a regular basis. You also ought to go through the A______tion Ma__ger thread and read all 80+ pages in that obsessive piece of work. Then you will know a bit more of the history of this board. Enjoy, Pixie It’s hard to convey tone through text sometimes, I meant for the apology to come across as sort of cheeky/lighthearted. I try not to resort to emojis, they can be a helpful in a pinch, but are seen as unprofessional (and at this early stage in my career, I have to try to be as professional as possible). But a 😉 might have helpful in this case I was just browsing the app manager thread, it is indeed quite voluminous, I’ll have to take a thorough look over the weekend. Thanks for the warm welcome! I’ve been lurking here on occasion ever since I started as a writer back in 2019, but I finally decided to come out of my shell (hopefully not too bombastically 😅). |
|
|
|
Post by hopefalj on Oct 14, 2021 20:24:45 GMT -5
I was thinking more of the “fundamental right” side of strict scrutiny, rather than a protected class. Is there a fundamental right to privacy? Is there a fundamental right to be free from the battery of a non-consensual vaccination? The Constitutional scholars on this Board would likely point out that strict scrutiny applies to a “law” and not necessarily to an executive order. I am fully vaccinated. I completed my vaccination survey online and uploaded my documents. It did not cause me any grief to comply. I am confident this will be litigated. I think the vaccine mandate and reporting requirements will withstand strict scrutiny. I could be wrong. I have been wrong before - just ask the Appeals Council. Well, that should clue you in to my con law expertise.  It’ll be interesting to see what happens with the suits. While we have more protections as federal employees from our employer than employees of private companies (I think, but see expertise disclaimer above), those protections are not as extensive as a private citizen’s protections from the government. So while I tend to think the vaccine cannot (and should not) be forced upon the general public, I’m not sure it can’t be forced upon us. Guess we’ll see. |
|
|
|
Post by redsox1 on Oct 14, 2021 21:05:31 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by issuegirl on Oct 14, 2021 21:50:47 GMT -5
I was really upset after reading one of the posts earlier stating that the unvaccinated are infecting us all “literally” as well as other inflammatory statements such as the person “shudders to think” that there may be ALJs who think differently. Nonetheless, as a “strange brown person” who is the child of immigrants who fled a dictatorship, I’ve tried to be very careful in trying to be informed on what it’s really happening rather than just believing what CNN tells me to believe. I think studies from other countries are important. We are all lawyers and/or judges on this forum. Please use your critical thinking skills and be respectful of the freedoms, religion, and ideas of others. We should all be concerned about what is happening to our country apart from the virus and we should stop trying to create division and act like we are superior to others. The study below should make everyone think about whether we can really keep blaming the unvaccinated for the continued spread of the virus. Published: 30 September 2021 Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-021-00808-7 |
|
|
|
Post by nylawyer on Oct 14, 2021 22:04:57 GMT -5
Have you guys got your booster shot yet? I submitted my vaccine information on the site, and there was an option for booster. I think in Israel they now are saying not fully vaccinated unless 3 shots? Where you live are they asking for vaccine cards for entering salons gyms etc? Is there some sort f fast pass system for vaccine verification? NYC is requiring proof of vaccination, although I've entered a few places where no one has asked. (There was some controversy a few weeks back about it, with one group protesting that due to the significant variance in vaccination rates, the rule ends up being discriminatory, but I have not heard a lot about that lately). My wife was able to connect her vaccine card to her Clear account, but I have no idea how that is going to be utilized. There is another app specifically designed for downloading the vaccine proof- I haven't gotten it myself, I have got pictures of my card on my phone if I am ever asked, but as I said no one has. |
|
Happy_GS
Full Member
I can do this all day
Posts: 34
|
Post by Happy_GS on Oct 14, 2021 23:45:55 GMT -5
I was really upset after reading one of the posts earlier stating that the unvaccinated are infecting us all “literally” as well as other inflammatory statements such as the person “shudders to think” that there may be ALJs who think differently. Nonetheless, as a “strange brown person” who is the child of immigrants who fled a dictatorship, I’ve tried to be very careful in trying to be informed on what it’s really happening rather than just believing what CNN tells me to believe. I think studies from other countries are important. We are all lawyers and/or judges on this forum. Please use your critical thinking skills and be respectful of the freedoms, religion, and ideas of others. We should all be concerned about what is happening to our country apart from the virus and we should stop trying to create division and act like we are superior to others. The study below should make everyone think about whether we can really keep blaming the unvaccinated for the continued spread of the virus. Published: 30 September 2021 Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-021-00808-7 If you’re going to criticize my post, you could at least quote it in its entirety. I think with proper context it’s pretty obvious that I was mocking xenophobic conservatives, not trying to emulate them. Since apparently my tone is very hard to pick up on, I’ll state it clearly: I am not afraid of immigrants or people of color, I believe this country should live up to its highest ideals and be bastion where people all over the world who yearn to be free can come and experience democracy and self-governance, regardless of their race, religion, sex, or other protected characteristic. I have overwhelming love in my heart for all peoples of this Earth, which is why I’m trying to help you. Now that that’s out of the way, let’s indeed use our critical thinking skills. I was actually shocked to see an anti-vaxxer (or at least an anti-vax sympathizer) trot out what appears to be a legitimate piece of scientific research. I read through the synopsis and thought “hmm perhaps there’s something to this, am I possibly not up-to-date on the latest data? Oh well, let’s google the title to see what others are saying about the research.” Guess what? It did not take me long to locate a thorough takedown of this study, pointing out the inherent bias, poor methodology, and cherry-picking that appears to be rampant in this piece of supposed scientific research. Here’s a link to said takedown: www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/covid-infection-rates-are-not-unrelated-to-vaccines-debunking-research/Also while this appears to be the only study attempting to show that vaccines are ineffective, there are dozens of studies regarding vaccine efficacy (all of which I’ve googled and found no takedowns), here’s a few: www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110345www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2110605www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7038e1.htmJust to prove I googled, here’s an article discussing the two NEJM studies: www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/09/covid-vaccines-very-effective-hinder-spread-studies-sayWaPo did an article on the epidemic of Republican misinformation regarding the vaccine, which you can find here (warning paywall): www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/09/27/misinformation-epidemic-among-unvaccinated-republicans-one-stat/As most of us know, the vaccine not only reduces spread but it reduces the incidence of hospitalization significantly, this benefit alone is reason enough to mandate it. I’m sorry if I offended anyone, but y’all need to be confronted with this, you are incorrect, and your steadfastness in resisting the vaccine is costing lives. I want to be respectful of everyone, but y’all are very sensitive to anyone questioning your positions unless they do it in the most deferential manner. Obviously, I’m not talking about everyone here, just the ones that continue to defend their anti-vax stance. I think there’s something psychological to it, you want to believe that you’re smarter than all the experts, that you’ve cracked the code that the rest of us sheeple can’t possibly hope to figure out. Guess what? You sound like that one uncle who can’t shut up about how they faked the moon landing and the world is actually flat. Nobody wants to get stuck next to that uncle at the Thanksgiving table, and yet I’m still out here trying to save y’all’s lives. Also you think I get my news from CNN? I’m under 40, I don’t have cable 😂 I get my news from Reddit, podcasts, and WaPo (sometimes the NYT too, but if I say that the right-wingers heads could explode with righteous fervor). You think I watch CNN because that’s what they tell you on Fox News. I can’t believe you’re telling me to use critical thinking skills while you’re parroting right-wing media and tossing out poorly researched studies. You did not use your own critical thinking skills, you found the thing that said what you wanted to hear and you stopped right there, you didn’t question it and you didn’t verify it. It looks official and it says what you want to hear, so why keep digging? I swear I think some y’all been wearing robes too dang long, you’re starting to drink your own bath water. So keep coming at me anti-vaxxers (and sympathizers) because in the words of Captain America, “I can do this all day.” |
|
|
|
Post by issuegirl on Oct 15, 2021 0:22:42 GMT -5
Just wondering where skeptical raptor got their medical degree? I can’t even find an author to the source but maybe I missed it. I got the study from MDs who sent it to me because it actually is NOT anti-VAX. If you actually read the study instead of immediately trolling bad sources to try to disclaim it you would see that it concludes that the vaccine amongst other methods should be utilized,, but just notes that the rate of Covid continues to spread even amongst highly vaccinated populations.
Your tone is inflammatory and it is unfortunate that you are incapable of having a civil conversation. I wonder if you are a paper tiger or if you actually have fought for this country as has my family.
Troll away.
|
|
Happy_GS
Full Member
I can do this all day
Posts: 34
|
Post by Happy_GS on Oct 15, 2021 2:23:43 GMT -5
Just wondering where skeptical raptor got their medical degree? I can’t even find an author to the source but maybe I missed it. I got the study from MDs who sent it to me because it actually is NOT anti-VAX. If you actually read the study instead of immediately trolling bad sources to try to disclaim it you would see that it concludes that the vaccine amongst other methods should be utilized,, but just notes that the rate of Covid continues to spread even amongst highly vaccinated populations. Your tone is inflammatory and it is unfortunate that you are incapable of having a civil conversation. I wonder if you are a paper tiger or if you actually have fought for this country as has my family. Troll away. *Ding ding* looks like somebody requested round 2.
Let's start by getting one thing straight, you accuse me of being uncivilized, but you started your initial post by being condescending and stating that I was incapable of critical thinking. That to me, does not ring out as very civil. You call me inflammatory, but you ignore the multiple outpourings of love I put forth. I am not your enemy, I am trying to help you.
Moving on, you did indeed miss it. If you click the about section at the top of the skeptical raptor page, you'll be brought to their bio, here I can help:
I'll also include some of the pertinent portions herein:
"The Skeptical Raptor
The old feathered dinosaur has over 30 years experience in endocrinology and cardiology. As a part of that background, they had extensive education in immunology, microbiology, cell biology, biochemistry, and evolutionary biology. So this is why I kind of stick in a few areas.
Most of the background is research and development in the pharmaceutical and medical device industry. Yeah, some of you will take that as proof of some conspiracy. But, science is science – the only thing that matters is evidence, and that’s the only thing the ancient dinosaur uses
Education
The old dinosaur has an undergraduate degree in Biology from a top US research university and a graduate degree in Biochemistry/Endocrinology from a major US research university. This was during the early Cretaceous, of course."
But more importantly, the skeptical raptor discusses in their own about section why credential don't matter, evidence does, see here:
"Credentials don’t matter
Given the amount of ignorance posted in the comments section, let’s be clear. It doesn’t matter who the withered dinosaur is, where they went to school (although if you all had a couple of functional neurons, it’s not that hard to tell), or what they did or didn’t do in the 65 million years since the end of the Cretaceous.
Mr. Andrew Wakefield presumably attended medical school, and he perpetrated one of the largest medical frauds in the history of mankind. Linus Pauling won two Nobel Prizes, yet wrote pseudoscientific books about vitamin C, which has no effect on cancer or colds. Tetyana Obukhanych has a Ph.D. in immunology, and she hasn’t written one accurate thing about vaccines.
The only thing that matters is evidence, not false authority. If you present a point in scientific discussions that is supported by the scientific consensus, then it’s pretty much settled.
Based on this, here’s all you need to know about the old feathered dinosaur. He or she graduated from the Reseda Institute of VW Auto Repair and Janitorial Engineering. He or she worked cleaning the toilets of the Big Pharma Reptilian Overlords. But he or she utilizes only peer-reviewed scientific evidence published in the top biomedical journals to support any of his or her claims."
So do you stand by your claim that this is a bad source? You've failed to make even a perfunctory effort to investigate the source and immediately dismiss it, because it doesn't look official. You've refused to confront the evidence or re-examine your position. You claim the study, "just notes that the rate of Covid continues to spread even amongst highly vaccinated populations." This is incorrect. If you read through skeptical raptor's takedown, you'd know that the first point they make is that the authors cherry-picked, specifically excluding countries where vaccination rates are high and COVID infection rates are low. The raptor goes on to detail how the study used countries with low testing rates (meaning COVID spread is actually much higher than testing can show), and how the study fails to account for other confounding variables.
You've failed to address and engage with many of my other points as well, such as the studies from the CDC and/or the NEJM which show that these vaccines are overwhelmingly effective. The article summarizes it well, "Overall, the hazard ratio for COVID-19 in household members was 0.70 (95% CI, 0.63 to 0.78) 14 days after the first dose (a 30% risk reduction) and 0.46 (95% CI, 0.30 to 0.70) 14 days after the second dose (54% reduction)." This is what we call clinically significant.
Also, you claim the paper you offered in your initial post is not anti-vax, but the title feels anti-vax, listen to it: "Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States." While you're digging into the nuance of the paper, most folks will not, they will see the top line heading and think, "Oh cool, I don't have to get vaccinated, it doesn't work anyway." The purpose of this paper appears to be to discredit vaccines as a primary strategy for tackling the pandemic. Again, the raptor summarizes nicely, "Sadly, [this research] will probably be used to push a false narrative about the usefulness of these vaccines." Recall, you offered this as evidence as to why we should all be nicer to the unvaccinated because it's not their fault COVID is still happening. If now you're saying this paper isn't anti-vax, then I'm confused, why aren't we strongly encouraging everyone to get vaccinated?
You've accused me of being an uncivilized troll and a paper tiger simply for offering you evidence, which you fail to acknowledge or engage with because it does not fit your narrative. I do not take kindly to such insults and ask that you refrain from ad hominem (it is the last sad refuge of someone who is failing to argue their point on the merits). Lastly, my service record is none of your business.
I'm ready for round 3 whenever you are, like I said, I'm here to help. All I ask is that if we continue this discussion that you meaningfully engage with and address the arguments and evidence presented herein.
|
|
