Advice on lateral moves

[bt]

I have worked as an AA for 14 years. Before SSA, I worked for about 7 years as an attorney in state government.My office just had an SAA position open and I applied as did a coworker who has been with the Agency over 10 years and had an extensive career prior to SSA. We were both passed over for a much younger ( early 30s), out of office candidate who has been with the Agency 4 years and has about 3 years outside agency experience and has been licensed as an an attorney for about 7 years. Every AA in my office has been with the Agency longer than this newly hired SAA. My cumulative DWPI is over 100, never any complaints from ALJs, and always satisfactory PACS. So what gives in this place? My HOD, who is newish, told me I needed to state the specific types of cases in my SSA 45. My HOD assigns my cases so the HOD knows what type of decisions I write. I've written every type of decision in 14 years. There have also been 2 recent GS positions in my office where older candidates with more job experience were passed over for much younger ones with much less time in the Agency and less overall job experience. How possible is it to get a lateral move from one OHO to another? And would I be considered a new employee and put on a probation period? Any thoughts?

[bourbonmanhattan]

Hmmm, from my experience, your credentials on paper only gets you so far. It's really the interview that sets people apart. Especially when people are interviewing for a position in the same office that they're working in, they often assume the interviewer already knows them, and they end up providing fewer examples or less detailed examples. Recommendations also factor in. Can you be absolutely sure that your first and second line supervisor both "highly recommended" you?

[Pixie]

Nothing kills employee morale faster than hiring from the outside when qualified in office employees are available. I never did it, and hope I never do.

But don't discount the possibility that pressure from region was involved. Pixie

[bt]

I was never asked to provide any references or recommendations nor was my coworker. Plus, my HOD said everyone scored about the same on interviews. Both myself and coworker have much more Agency experience and overall experience. I have no idea if my immediate GS was contacted.

[Deleted]

Also, engage during performance discussions. Everyone wants the SAA job- having 3.0 or 3.5 PACS, while satisfactory, is not indicative of someone going above and beyond. Promotions are earned. Engage and ask what you need to do to get to 4.0/4.5/5. Spend time mentoring others. If you see a work process you think could be improved, provide suggestions.

And honestly, production counts. Above 100 is great, above 115 is better.

All that being said, luck is a factor. Right time right place for sure happens. Don’t beat yourself up, don’t get down, but do what you can to put yourself in a better position for next time.

As far as laterals, I’ve known of a few employees (less than the fingers on one hand) to move from a GS 12 to another agency, and both were veterans. You hear of them here or there, but they are unicorns. A few more managers I know have gotten picked up, mostly in larger cities with larger federal populations.

Good luck - today sucks, but it’s just another speed bump in your journey.

[rightspeech]

from what I recall hardship transfer was really the path to move.

Send spouse to new area to get a job then hardship transfer, get docs saying aging parent back home needs care that type of thing. During my time I know of at least 1 high step gs12 writer perm transfer to my office bc of hardship transfer.

There is no next in line for promotion in OHO.  A new office might not change much and that office might not even have an SAA open for 10 years and they might hire someone outside too.  My office got its first SAA announcement in 10 years in 2022, I didn't get it. I figured if they won't take me for SAA I prob dont have very good shot at ALJ either so I left.

[bt]

I have mentored newly hired and struggling writers as there was no SAA in my office for over 3 years and the former SAAs refused to mentor folks. I have done the job of SAA in my office as have many other AAs in my office. As for PACS, I was told by a GS that it's impossible to get all 5s as that would garner too much attention from RO. We get a 1, 3, or 5 in each category. There are no 4s at least that is what my GS told me. In any event, I know that I have gone above and beyond in this job and it has pretty much gotten me nowhere and many of my fellow coworkers feel the same way. 

[Deleted]

May 12, 2023 14:02:52 GMT -5 bt said:

I have mentored newly hired and struggling writers as there was no SAA in my office for over 3 years and the former SAAs refused to mentor folks. I have done the job of SAA in my office as have many other AAs in my office. As for PACS, I was told by a GS that it's impossible to get all 5s as that would garner too much attention from RO. We get a 1, 3, or 5 in each category. There are no 4s at least that is what my GS told me. In any event, I know that I have gone above and beyond in this job and it's pretty much gotten me nowhere and many of my fellow coworkers feel the same way. 

I was referring to average scores. I would push back on a GS that says a writer can’t get a 5.0 average and go to your HOD/ask them to refer to RO if that is the party line. I know there are GSs/offices that are like that, but it’s a broken way of thinking, and inconsistent with our policy. Interpersonal skills is typically the one that is harder to demonstrate, you have to get creative (and work in partnership with your GS). I’ve given AAs and SAAs all 5s ( you do need to write a justification to RO, but if they’ve earned it that’s pretty much the PACS appraisal write up) and gotten them QSIs as well.

I understand being disgruntled today/this week/month, but feel free to send me a PM if you want to follow up outside this site. Sounds like we started at the same time, and it took me 7 (frustrating) years to get GS. Since then, I’ve been able to do a bunch (maybe too much tbh) but LR/ER, HOD, Appeals Council. And even with that variety I feel stagnant at points.

[bourbonmanhattan]

May 12, 2023 13:16:24 GMT -5 bt said:

I was never asked to provide any references or recommendations nor was my coworker. Plus, my HOD said everyone scored about the same on interviews. Both myself and coworker have much more Agency experience and overall experience. I have no idea if my immediate GS was contacted.

Often only the top half of candidates after interviews get their references checked. Even then, they might not ask for your preferred references, they go straight to your first and second line supervisors. It's perfectly acceptable to discuss with your GS that you applied for a position and to ask if they were contacted for a reference.

[recoveringalj]

Excepted service hiring is a crapshoot.

[seaprongs]

May 12, 2023 14:02:52 GMT -5 bt said:

I have mentored newly hired and struggling writers as there was no SAA in my office for over 3 years and the former SAAs refused to mentor folks. I have done the job of SAA in my office as have many other AAs in my office. As for PACS, I was told by a GS that it's impossible to get all 5s as that would garner too much attention from RO. We get a 1, 3, or 5 in each category. There are no 4s at least that is what my GS told me. In any event, I know that I have gone above and beyond in this job and it has pretty much gotten me nowhere and many of my fellow coworkers feel the same way. 

I feel some of your frustration. I know our office interviewed people outside our office when there was a SAA position open, but if I wasn't going to get the job, I was at least happy to see it go to a colleague who is honestly just as deserving. I would have been as upset as you are if they went with an outsider when we had plenty of strong candidates internally.

There are very few SAA positions and virtually no recognition for going above and beyond for office projects or details aside from a few nice words. Productivity seems to be the only real driver for who gets promoted, and even then, you've got a bunch of people who can write a lot of decisions.

[roonie]

I had a supervisor tell me when they were interviewing for a position that even though they knew the interviewee, they couldn’t give them points on answers in interviews unless they went into detail/spelled it out. Even if they knew what the person was referencing. There is also the issue of not fully answering the question- like giving the example but not giving the result. Your situation is disheartening and none of this may apply to you, but I thought I’d throw it out there.

[jimmy224]

From my understanding, you get a certain amount of points per interview question. Ask your supervisor how many points you got in the interview to see if you missed out on any points and see how your interview points stack up to the person who got selected

[christina]

I’m sorry folks. I was hired competitively as SAA but pool was so so much smaller back then. And Thankfully my office and region took the hire from within office approach.

I hope things improve.

[hippolove]

I’d advise you ask to see the SSA-45 of anyone you know that has been promoted. I know I applied for years and never got anything. One day, after losing out to someone I knew well, I asked to see their SSA-45 and was amazed at how much more information they included in theirs than I did in mine. Once I copied that person’s format, I got every detail, promotion, and eventually ALJ position that I put in for. So after failing for at least 8 years, it was just that minor tweak that was holding me back. Figure out what tweak you need to make and remind yourself that it will break your way if you put in for enough things. Irrational optimism will always beat the people who become disgruntled and stop applying.

[bourbonmanhattan]

May 12, 2023 18:41:53 GMT -5 jimmy224 said:

From my understanding, you get a certain amount of points per interview question. Ask your supervisor how many points you got in the interview to see if you missed out on any points and see how your interview points stack up to the person who got selected

Not sure a GS could reveal your total score. It's usually 1-5 per question.

[operationalj]

Are there any 'career coaches' that specialize in federal government attorneys? There should be. I would definitely invest in a good one that uses relevant strategies for the current system. Could one of you that has succeeded in SSA do that on the side... such as @thereturnoframspider or hippolove? I would consider investing in your services. I think there are those like bt who are working hard and doing a great job but not getting anywhere just because they are unaware of little tweaks to make as suggested in the above posts. That's such a loss of time, talent, and money.

[roymcavoy]

BT,

I’d be careful posting anything said to or by you specific enough to be traced back to you.

I’m not defending your managers because I think we all know deserving folks who we feel were passed over for whatever reason…. But

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it the OHO official submits its ranking of candidates for a given position and the regional office actually picks from those names—they are not obligated to pick OHOs top choice. So while it may have been your HOD who made the selections at issue, it’s also possible that your managers ranked you and your colleague highest but region selected the outsider (with your managers are unwilling to posit the blame where it is due).

[wandernotlost]

May 13, 2023 9:04:25 GMT -5 roymcavoy said:

BT,

I’d be careful posting anything said to or by you specific enough to be traced back to you.

I’m not defending your managers because I think we all know deserving folks who we feel were passed over for whatever reason…. But

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it the OHO official submits its ranking of candidates for a given position and the regional office actually picks from those names—they are not obligated to pick OHOs top choice. So while it may have been your HOD who made the selections at issue, it’s also possible that your managers ranked you and your colleague highest but region selected the outsider (with your managers are unwilling to posit the blame where it is due).

[wandernotlost]

That seems very Big Brother-esque or maybe more A Stranger is Calling. Also, "posit the blame" is an interesting way to put it....