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Post by nonamouse on Sept 12, 2008 9:27:06 GMT -5
No one argues "for the agency" before an ALJ in some agencies. They are not adversarial hearings at SSA where most ALJs get their start. Some ALJs go to other agencies after gaining experience at SSA and those other agencies have 2 parties representing different sides.
OGC represents the agency by defending ALJ decisions that have been appealed to US district court. Some people have gone from ODAR to OGC, but the OGC has far fewer openings than ODAR for attorneys. Additionally, depending on the region of the country the OGC attorneys may do a lot more motion writing versus actually arguing in court. If you want experience in hotly contested administrative hearings, then I think the state route is the way to go. I've represented state agencies in contested admin. hearings against some amazing private attorneys. Depending upon the state and the agency, the same govt. attorneys will represent their agency in admin. hearings, county courts and before appellate/state supreme court. SSA does not offer that wide variety of experience in any component.
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Post by tricia on Sept 12, 2008 11:41:00 GMT -5
sgl, you might think that this is obvious, but just in case you start applying to do public defender work, here's a bit of advice.
I have been a managing attorney at a public defender office and have been involved in a significant number of hiring decisions. One mistake many applicants make is to state in their interviews that they want to work for the public defender office to get litigation experience.
The question usually takes this form: "What do you see yourself doing in ten years?" The correct answer is that you want to be a public defender.
It is true that many people don't stay in public defender work forever. I did it for 16 years and am doing something else now. But the managing attorneys don't feel that the office exists to train attorneys to be litigators so that they can go do something else. Just a thought.
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Post by oldjag on Sept 12, 2008 12:14:29 GMT -5
The same goes for the other table in the courtroom. I was a prosecutor for several years before applying to be an ALJ. It gave me super experience. Just remember it takes a long time to train to do any new attorney job well. Just as HOCJ's don't like to train ALJ's for the rest of the country  , prosecutors realize that some won't stay forever, but they want one who will stay a few years. Good luck.  |
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Post by morgullord on Sept 12, 2008 17:53:48 GMT -5
You are correct, deaddisco. We at ODAR have pretty much the same view of DDS.
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Post by sgl on Sept 12, 2008 21:00:24 GMT -5
You are correct, deaddisco. We at ODAR have pretty much the same view of DDS. If you don't mind me asking, how long have you been at ODAR? Don't the senior/supervisory ODAR attys make close to what an ALJ does anyway (GS-14/15 range)? In fact, a senior-level ODAR atty might possibly have to take an initial pay cut when becoming an ALJ (not to mention having to relocate). Is the desire for the ALJ spot mostly the prestige, security and lessened workload? I'd think a GS-14/15 atty and an ALJ would roughly make the same income. |
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Post by barkley on Sept 12, 2008 21:43:05 GMT -5
You are correct, deaddisco. We at ODAR have pretty much the same view of DDS. If you don't mind me asking, how long have you been at ODAR? Don't the senior/supervisory ODAR attys make close to what an ALJ does anyway (GS-14/15 range)? In fact, a senior-level ODAR atty might possibly have to take an initial pay cut when becoming an ALJ (not to mention having to relocate). Is the desire for the ALJ spot mostly the prestige, security and lessened workload? I'd think a GS-14/15 atty and an ALJ would roughly make the same income. If you choose to begin a career as an attorney advisor at ODAR, you will start as a GS 11 and after a year be promoted to a 12. That is the only guarantee. Depending on the size of the office, you will find between 1 and maybe up to 4 or 5 senior attorney advisors, who are GS 13s. Becoming a 13 is not guaranteed and is a competitive selection; a senior attorney does not supervise anyone. Management consists of GS 13 group supervisors, who are former paralegals or attorneys. Each office has one hearing office director who is a GS 14, and may or may not be an attorney. Although I am too lazy to look up what the top GS 13s make, I think most of my friends who have become ALJs did experience a pay increase. I think the only way it is a pay "cut" is if you were an attorney advisor in a state with low or no taxes and moved to a state with high taxes or higher housing costs. A GS 13 moving from Tennessee to be an ALJ in DC might hurt. I don't see that being an ALJ is any more "secure" than being a staff writer. Further, the good ALJs are likely working harder than a writer. Most writers have more opportunities to work at home. Most writers have more flexible leave, because when your staff is scheduling your hearings three months in advance you have to plan ahead, while a writer can put in a leave slip most any time. In my opinion, what makes being an ALJ attractive is getting to participate in the hearing and having the freedom to make my own decisions rather than justify someone else's. |
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Post by nonamouse on Sept 13, 2008 18:35:20 GMT -5
Attorneys at components other than ODAR can go higher on the GS scale. There are far fewer 14s or 15s at SSA than at many other agencies and it takes longer to get there. Other agencies will also take into account prior outside experience and bring in litigators at a higher GS level to start. In my region of ODAR, they just don't give credit for other non-federal experience. I even know one attorney who came into the agency as a GS-9 right out of law school. Yikes!
Even a GS-15 at the lower steps will get a small pay bump to the first ALJ pay band. The ALJ pay is capped around 158k at this point due to factors outside the control of SSA or the other agencies. Look at the OPM website to see what federal pay entails.
It is a more "secure" position to be an ALJ than a staff attorney. It is much more difficult to get rid of an ALJ than a staff attorney. Tossing an ALJ is not an internal matter for the agency whose cases they hear. Additionally, the managers can make a staff attorney a lot more miserable than they can an ALJ because they do "supervise" the staff attorney and do performance appraisals. Management can prevent the attorneys from getting the cash awards while that is not a factor for ALJs. Management can control staff work load and assignments in such a way that an attorney who they cannot fire will want to quit.
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Post by morgullord on Sept 13, 2008 19:22:50 GMT -5
A quick finger count tells me that I am on my 6th or 7th CoSS (1988-present). I am fairly high on the GS-13 chart but my salary does not approach that of an ALJ. That said, it is not about the money. See Plato's Allegory of the Cave for some insight.
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Post by sgl on Sept 13, 2008 20:34:25 GMT -5
This may be asinine, and the regulars can knock me if it's stupid, but my preferred career path would look something like this:
1. State criminal prosecutor (3 years)
2. Legal Benefits Adviser, Dept. of Soc. and Health Services (state agency) (2 years)
3. Office of Disability Adjudication Review, Social Security Administration (hired at GS-11/12)(1 year)
4. Administrative Law Judge, Office of Administrative Hearings (state agency) (2 years) (I'd publish a law review article on administrative law during this period as well)
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This would put me at 8 years of pretty solid experience (litigation, judicial, writing, agency specific). I'd be about 34 years old, and the solid year at ODAR IMO is enough to meet 'agency specific experience.' I'd transition back to state admin work, then apply for federal ALJ at age 34 (I don't like the idea of applying while still in ODAR).
If I don't get it in then, then I'll probably seek an agency OGC job (which would hit the GS-14 range), preferably DHS, SSA, or HHS.
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Post by oldjag on Sept 14, 2008 14:07:31 GMT -5
Sounds like an interesting plan. You might want to stay with prosecution a few more years to get good litigation experience (felony trials count). Besides, it's a really fun job. More than eight years experience would be better.
Good luck with your plans. It sounds like you have given this a lot of thought. Oh to be in my 20's again ;D
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, prosecutors realize that some won't stay forever, but they want one who will stay a few years. Good luck. 
