scores thread question

[hod]

I'm sorry-I should have read more threads. I see that you get a chance to narrow before the offers are made. So that means one must have a score by then.

[pm]

Feb 13, 2009 9:07:10 GMT -5 zero said:

Feb 12, 2009 17:25:20 GMT -5 pm said:

A multi city cert does not list the top 3 candidates per city.

Now I'm confused. I read before that OPM creates a list that guarantees at least three viable candidates for each vacancy. How is OPM going to do that unless it picks the high three scores from candidates willing to work in the relevant location? What good is a cert that offers 60 candidates for Happytown, USA and no candidates for the less desirable locations?

OPM does not create a multi city cert that guarantees 3 viable candidates for each vacancy. There are people who post here who have made such statements and they are simply wrong. You need to understand the difference between a one city cert and a multi city cert. A one city cert does provide 3 candidates for that one city. If ODAR wanted to hire 100 ALJs for 100 different cities, ODAR could choose to request 100 different certs. Now think about that for a minute and figure out what would happen. The number of candidates listed would normally be far less than 300 since high scorers would grab the top spots on multiple cities. The process would quickly disintegrate as the high scorers were picked for the first few cities and subsequent certs would have no viable candidates at all as the high scorers were removed from the pool. ODAR would then have to request more certs.

The multi city cert is how ODAR and OPM get around that problem. For the above example, ODAR would request one cert for the 100 top scorers for the 100 cities they listed. That cert will contain 300 different names. There is nothing in the multi city cert process that guarantees three candidates from each city or even one candidate from every city. But when the cert number is high enough, there tend to be very few problems with finding candidates for each city as I will discuss further below.

The scenario you envisage, 60 candidates for one city and none for the other cities, doesn't tend to happen with multi city certs. In theory it could, but in practice it doesn't, aside from the odd city and in that case ODAR either doesn't fill the position at that time or asks for a smaller cert with which to fill it. There are simply too many candidates who list ALL, or substantially all cities, and there is too much variability with regard to which cities are considered desirable. Everyone has a different idea as to what is a desirable location. There is no universal agreement on "less desirable" locations. There are people who hate big cities and people who love big cities. There are people who love the south and those who hate the south. Ditto the Pacific Northwest. Or the New England states.

[justfoundthisboard]

I believe that you get 24 months to avail yourself of the benefit.

[jcse]

So, PM, if the top scores are 55, 78, and 92 for a particular city, and SSA is the hiring Agency, would the fact that one of the scorers is an attorney with SSA experience (either an attorney who works for ODAR or who has a disability practice), have bearing on the selection, especially if they pick the 55 over the other 2? I've asked this question in other threads but no one seems to have a definitive answer. Does anyone have any info. on how many ODAR attorneys were hired as ALJs in the 2007 cert.?

[okeydokey]

JSCE,

I do not think the choices are arbitrary, there are a number of factors that play into the selection and varying weight is given to each of the factors. Just like any other job in the world.

My presumption is that the selections are based on common sense and that the selectors choose who they think will be best.

So, would someone who has been a state judge for 30 years and has a score of 85 be better than someone who has written ODAR decisions for 10 years and has a score of 60? That is a close call, perhaps.

Some considerations I think the selectors might consider:

1. Veterans preference. If they have to justify passing over a veteran, they should have a good reason. I suspect this is not done lightly.
2. SSA experience. On the whole, a person with an SSA background will be more useful to an agency. If the average ALJ serves, for example, 10 years, and it takes three years to get up to speed, you will get more use out of an SSA veteran.
3. Experience in and out of SSA. I would think that some types of experience, such as litigation, would be more useful than other experience, such as writing wills and trusts.
4. Scores. Although the scores are arbitrary, perhaps there is some method to the madness. It would just be silly to ignore the scores entirely.
5. Personality. That is what the interview before hiring is for. Even if a candidate is great on paper, if they are a complete not a very nice person at the interview, they will not get hired.
6. Background. ODAR does not want to hire nutjobs or criminals if they don't have to. And it would be useful to know the applicant's work ethic.

[hod]

Thanks JFTB! I appreciate the information. That sure will be a help for those of us living in the real estate doldrums.

[justfoundthisboard]

You're welcome, HOD. The real estate buy-out was the best part of the deal for us. It got us out of a home we really couldn't afford. Of course, we had to move to a different part of the country, but we bought twice the house for half the price where we are now. I had wanted to delay the purchase since we had 24 months to buy, but my spouse didn't want to rent. That's why I know you can delay the purchase and the sale of homes with the relocation benefit for up to 24 months, on both ends of the move.

BTW, I dealt with the Prudential Relocation office in the DC area, and our sale to them was not bad at all - not that we didn't have to fix things to their specifications (including a new roof on our home before they would buy it from us), but we still got a good buy-out price. By the time we had settled, the market had crashed. Prudential re-sold our property for $30k less than they had paid to us.

[hod]

Yeah, I unfortunately live in the area where you probably moved. Housing prices are wonderful here. I have been looking around the country and finding that I am unlilkely to get the amount of house that I have now for a similar price. Even with the extra boost some areas get-it doesn't equal out the cost of living. But I am reaching an age (or rather my children are) where downsizing is OK! But I like the idea of 24 months. It gives one a chance to look around and get a feeling for the area before committing to a particular home!

[jcse]

Thanks Okey, for your info.

With regard to the 24 month period discussed above, assuming you take the first offer and
hate the area, how long does a new ALJ have to stay in an office before one can apply for a transfer?

[pm]

Feb 16, 2009 11:46:10 GMT -5 jcse said:

So, PM, if the top scores are 55, 78, and 92 for a particular city, and SSA is the hiring Agency, would the fact that one of the scorers is an attorney with SSA experience (either an attorney who works for ODAR or who has a disability practice), have bearing on the selection, especially if they pick the 55 over the other 2? I've asked this question in other threads but no one seems to have a definitive answer. Does anyone have any info. on how many ODAR attorneys were hired as ALJs in the 2007 cert.?

Everything has a bearing on the selection. This is not brain surgery. It's common sense. They're tryng to pick the best person they can for the job and that can encompass many different things.

The percentage of insiders vs outsiders hired has been posted on this board, TOB and at least one other SS site a total of at least 5 or 6 times that I know of. But the bottom line is that it does not matter. The only thing that matters is whether they hire you.

[workdrone]

Feb 16, 2009 23:00:43 GMT -5 jcse said:

With regard to the 24 month period discussed above, assuming you take the first offer and
hate the area, how long does a new ALJ have to stay in an office before one can apply for a transfer?

I believe pursuant to the union contract, line ALJs are not eligible for the transfer list for 2 years. And after you get on the list, there's no guarantee you'll be transferred immediately. It all depends on how many other ALJs are ahead of you for that location, and how often a spot opens up for that particular office. I know of ALJs who took several years to work their way home.

Alternatively, there's always the possibility of applying for a HOCALJ position or laterally transfer to another agency. Of course, both of these depends on opportunity and luck.

[blackswan]

Feb 16, 2009 11:46:10 GMT -5 jcse said:

So, PM, if the top scores are 55, 78, and 92 for a particular city, and SSA is the hiring Agency, would the fact that one of the scorers is an attorney with SSA experience (either an attorney who works for ODAR or who has a disability practice), have bearing on the selection, especially if they pick the 55 over the other 2? I've asked this question in other threads but no one seems to have a definitive answer. Does anyone have any info. on how many ODAR attorneys were hired as ALJs in the 2007 cert.?

In "Insiders Appointed" 3-6-08 it says 39% of the total appointed were insiders, but that includes RO, FedRo, OGC, and the AC. 54 total.

[barkley]

Feb 16, 2009 23:00:43 GMT -5 jcse said:

Thanks Okey, for your info.

With regard to the 24 month period discussed above, assuming you take the first offer and
hate the area, how long does a new ALJ have to stay in an office before one can apply for a transfer?

That attitude is why it is important to take your geographical preference list seriously. If you put "all" down, you really should be willing to go to ALL places. If location is important to you, PLEASE be judicious in narrowing down your selections.

It is such a drag on an office to receive a judge who immediately begins working for their transfer. No one wants to hear how miserable a judge is, especially since in every placement, the judge expressed a particular willingness to move to THAT location. Just put down places you would likely be happy. Discuss with your family where they would be willing to move. Leave the slots for people who really want to take them.

[valkyrie]

"It is such a drag on an office to receive a judge who immediately begins working for their transfer. No one wants to hear how miserable a judge is, especially since in every placement, the judge expressed a particular willingness to move to THAT location."

This is a good point, but sometimes it is the office itself that can make an ALJ want to transfer rather than the actual city. I know some ALJs that went to isolated, generally unattractive locations, but made up the difference in that the office was friendly and functional. On the other hand, I have seen some go to generally attractive cities that have insane, dysfunctional offices, and not surprisingly, they want out immmediately. Of course, its not always easy to find out where the crazies are...

[hod]

Yes, and would it be nice if there could be an anonymous posting of where the good and bad offices are. I know that it is a matter of personal taste or whatever-but evryone knows of offices where the hod and hocaj hate each other or the alj's are contentious or staff a problem. Then there are offices whereeveryone seems to justplod along in relative harmony. Atmosphere makes a huge difference in how you view your job satisfaction.

[oldjag]

It is hard to know what an office is like--and that can change quite quickly. I am sure that there are enough people on this site that would be willing to send a private message about a particular office if desired.

Just remember, the people who are there live there. Especially the staff who are almost always from that area. Nothing can make you more disliked faster than whining about hating their home. The staff can go a long way to making life more, or less, enjoyable. As one of my old instructors said--the mind is a powerful thing, it can make a heaven out of hell, and a hell out of heaven. And as another instructor noted--life is tough, it's tougher when you are stupid.

Good luck to all and I hope you all get your first choice.

[lurker]

Feb 16, 2009 23:00:43 GMT -5 jcse said:

Thanks Okey, for your info.

With regard to the 24 month period discussed above, assuming you take the first offer and
hate the area, how long does a new ALJ have to stay in an office before one can apply for a transfer?

You have to be an ALJ for 2 years before you can put your name on the transfer list. Remember, that doesn't mean you can transfer in 2 years, just that you can put your name on the list and wait for an opportunity to arise.

[bina]

Anybody know when and if our refereces are checked?

[decadealj]

oldjag is right on. As for what offices are "trouble spots", I suggest the biggest problems occur in offices where there is a non-attorney HOD and group supervisors who march to the tune of region management officials rather than the HOCALJ. I have conducted hearings in more than 20 ODAR hearing locations and it doesn't take long to get the pulse of an office. The only exception was an office up North where the non-attorney HOD told regional management officials to take it to the HOCALJ who was one of the good old boys no one wanted to mess with- but that was ten years ago.

[valkyrie]

"I suggest the biggest problems occur in offices where there is a non-attorney HOD and group supervisors who march to the tune of region management officials rather than the HOCALJ."

The problems of individual offices are varied, and I'm sure most of us in ODAR don't even know half of the offices that have problems, and what their problems are. Some offices have more than their fair share of problems with a particular area, such as the ALJs, the writers, the senior attorneys, or the clerks. Some times its a key individual, such as the HOD, chief judge, or computer person. Sometimes everybody just hates each other and the office is an EEOC free-fire zone. Offices work differently too. I have heard of some where there is no personal contact between the ALJs and the writers. You never know what you are going to find.