Do we get just our score?

[chris]

doctorwho said:

chris said:

All of the above assumes the candidate does not have veterans preference.

Chris, I think I follow what you're saying, but I think there may be a general misunderstanding of why the VP is "powerful" on a certificate list. The power is not derived because the person is a veteran per se. The power comes from the extra points given to the person and where they land that person on the certificate list. That's why we hear from the personnel types, "there are veterans blocking a cert." It's not because they are veterans, it's because they are at the top of the cert. As such, ANY high scoring candidate, whether or not he/she had points added to his/her score, is not easy to bump off of a certificate. [Regardless of the rule of three -- which has its own, internal complications which are too numerous to mention here.]

Moreover, you are not correct that SSA is free to assign "no value at all" to the OPM grades. That, obviates the cert and goes against Merit Staffing principles. ALJ positions are competitive positions, different than attorney positions that fall under excepted service rules, and the rules are far more stringent. Ask any personnel specialist. If candidates so much as suspect that SSA is playing games with the certificate list to show preference for one candidate over another regardless of his/her score lawsuits will fly -- and it will get very ugly. [By the way, agencies have tried things like you mention in your post, and the results have been disastrous, for the agency.]

I take no great pleasure in explaining these rules, believe me. But, they are what they are. Government personnel law is a very complex, all ecompassing animal.

Doctorwho, you do not follow what I am saying with regard to use of the OPM score at SSA but I'll get to that in a minute.

With respect to veterans, the power of the veteran does indeed come from the fact that the veteran has a preference. This preference consists of more than simply adding points to the score. This is set forth at 5 U.S.C. 3309, 3313 and 5 CFR 332.401 and 337.101 and others . Veterans are known as "preference eligibles" and the laws regarding how they are treated is different than the laws applying to non veterans. Different rules apply to preference eligibles than to nonprefernce eligibles. This is a fact not subject to dispute. This is discussed at numerous places on the web but OPM is a good start:

www.opm.gov/veterans/html/vetguide.asp#2Types

Pixie and justfoundthisboard are absolutely correct. That is exactly why you hear that veterans are blocking a cert. Veterans are treated differently.

You still do not understand the issue regarding how SSA evaluates candidates. There is no law anywhere that prohibits SSA from making a list of their preferred candidates. There is no law anywhere that requires SSA to factor the OPM ranking into that list. Once SSA acts on their list, they will have to deal with the candidates ranking, but there is nothing legally, ethically or morally that requires SSA to factor the OPM score into their list of preferred candidates. This has NOTHING to do with playing games with the certificate list. This has to do with deciding which candidate you would prefer to hire. After they make that determination they then have to deal with the OPM score. At that point you will see SSA use any number of legal tactics to place people where they want to place them. The OPM score in short, is a practical obstacle to hiring a desirable candidate but I seriously doubt that SSA uses it to evaluate the worth of a candidate. For example, how would SSA evaluate the following two candidates:

Candidate #1, who we will call Pixie, comes along who is charming, intelligent, quick witted and has a 10 year work history at ODAR, where everyone loves her, but only has a 92 score.

Candidate #2, who we will call Darth Vader, is rude, boorish, childish, ego centered and confrontational. For the last 20 years he has worked at 5 different ODAR offices because he never gets along with anyone. He has a 94 score because he has more experince and did well on the WD.

Will SSA rate DV higher than Pixie because he has a higher score? Of course not. They will rate Pixie higher and do everything legally possible to hire Pixie, not DV.

In short, the OPM ranking will carry very little weight as SSA assesses the value of the candidates to SSA.

[Pixie]

hooligan said:

pixie said:

When I received my first certificate to hire from, personnel explained that if there were no veterans on the list, I could hire any of the three applicants on the list.* If a veteran were on the list, I would have to hire the veteran unless there was a reason to not hire, and an objective justification could be made to support the non selection of the veteran.

Your understanding is similar to mine, with one exception. It is not necessary to choose the vet preference candidate if a non-vet has a higher score. For example, if there are three candidates eligible and the vet has the second highest score, the highest score can be chosen without justification. The third highest score can not be chosen without going through the detailed justification process.

Exactly. The veteran with a score lower than a non veteran on a certificate does not get preference over the non veteran on the same certificate. They do not "rise" to the top of the list because of their status as a veteran. Sorry I didn't make that clear. ***I have now amended the post to make it clear (I hope!).***

And to Chris: Yes, the candidate with the 92 and the favorable attributes would be selected, and rightfully so, over the candidate with the 94. Pix.