slick
Member
"Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde
Posts: 29 
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Post by slick on Jul 11, 2009 18:22:33 GMT -5
I'm in the August class and start my new office July 20. I met my HOCALJ already and found out that at least one person in that office (don't know who) had applied for the ALJ position and didn't get it. She said the person was very disappointed. I assume there are many offices with that situation.
I was wondering if the members of the July class (who already have had two weeks at their duty station), had any experience with staffers who applied but were not hired as ALJ's. Did anyone say anything to you? Are there dirty looks or snide comments? Do you feel as if there might be someone who won't be supportive because you got the job and they (or their friend) didn't?
I'm not restricting this question to the July class; I just thought that since you were newest, you might have better recollection. if there is anyone who previously experienced this, I'd like to know.
Part of my desire to know is to learn how to be sensitive to someone who may be disgruntled because they didn't get this job.
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Post by northwest on Jul 11, 2009 20:10:39 GMT -5
I wondered if any attorneys in my office had tried for this job, and felt they should be in my robe instead of me. So far I haven't heard anything about it. I have felt welcomed and supported by all the folks I've met so far. It's a big office, and I haven't met everyone. I'm hearing that others in my class have also felt warmly welcomed. But it's good to be sensitive to the fact that there are many professionals in each office who know much more than the newbie ALJs about the law and procedures. We have much to learn from them. I think as long as we're respectful and thoughtful, and feel comfortable asking questions of those who know more than we do, we'll be fine. I don't think we need to feel like we're walking on eggshells.
My one message for those in the next class: You're going to LOVE this job. It's a great job, and the training is great. Yes, I'm a brand new newbie, and many might say I haven't had time to get jaded yet. And, of course, they're not going to invite people to be instructors if they're grumpy and down on the agency. But I think folks in my class have been pretty inspired by the enthusiasm and dedication of the leaders of ODAR and the instructors.
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Post by barkley on Jul 11, 2009 20:26:50 GMT -5
I can only speak for myself, but as someone who has been on both sides of the fence, I can say that while I was disappointed not to be selected in 2008, I honestly did not hold it against anyone who was. I figured the process was broken and maybe someday my time would come. It was not the fault of those selected that I was not chosen. That being said, I had one new alj be very patronizing about the whole thing and that really bothered me. All the other selectees I ran across were uniformly gracious in their selection and encouraging in my quest. Despite my disappointment last year, I hope I treated them with respect and good will.
My best advice for someone going into a new office, is to not bring it up with the attorneys. It is really none of your business whether they applied or "what went wrong." If a candidate wants to discuss it with you, they will bring it up. If they want your advice in the application process, they will ask. Your goal should be to establish a good working relationship with the staff. The best way to do that is to recognize that they too are licensed attorneys and many have alot of experience in analyzing and writing cases. If you have questions about the work, ask. I think many writers realize that the better you understand the process, the easier their job will be. If they have recommendations, consider them before accepting/rejecting their opinion. If you are not condescending or dismissive, you will do fine.
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Post by northwest on Jul 11, 2009 20:29:07 GMT -5
Very well put, Barkley.
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Post by onepingonly on Jul 11, 2009 21:47:20 GMT -5
Right on, Barkley.
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Post by Orly on Jul 12, 2009 0:54:18 GMT -5
Barkley, well put!
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Post by valkyrie on Jul 12, 2009 6:58:58 GMT -5
Professionalism demands that the attorneys in a new ALJ's office treat the newbie with every courtesy, regardless of their own application woes. On the other hand, new ALJs owe the attorneys in their new office courtesy and competency. Nobody wants to lose out to an idiot. I am happy to say that I got on well enough with the new ALJs in my office to have helped train them, and have them offer themselves as references for future certs. As candidates, whether successful or unsuccessful, we have all shared the camraderie of suffering through this process.
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Post by Legal Beagle on Jul 12, 2009 9:19:35 GMT -5
The one in my new office has been great - helpful on finding a place to live and on keeping me fom making an idiot out of myself by changing an onset date on my own.
(And I would say that even if he were not on this Forum!)
All of the staff and attorneys in my new office have been fantastic. I really hated leaving them to come to DC for a month.
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slick
Member
"Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde
Posts: 29
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Post by slick on Jul 12, 2009 10:30:28 GMT -5
All the comments are excellent and I thank you for taking the time to give me some insight. I deliberately did not ask my HOCALJ who the disappointed staffer was, since I agree that it wasn't my business.
When I went to meet my HOCALJ (right after my offer), those in the office that I met were gracious and seemed genuinely happy to meet me. I know I'm the new kid on the block and have every intention of recognizing and taking advantage of the knowledge of the staffers.
I'm also delighted with Northwest's comments about loving the job. I can't wait!
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Post by privateatty on Jul 12, 2009 20:05:20 GMT -5
bark, a great post.
Seems like alot of the posting here revolves around leadership and positive direction an office may have. Oh, and common sense with application of the Golden Rule. Most of the posters here recognize the need for humility as a newbie.
Many have posted that being a federal ALJ is the best job in government. I suspect that they are right. That that fact may breed envy and petty behavior is not surprising.
This process to become an ALJ is a gauntlet, pure and simple. I feel very lucky.
I was blown away by the reception at my new Office, it was very moving. I suspect the kindness and consideration I felt was to some degree accelerated by good leadership and that these folks know they have a good job and genuinely like each other.
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Post by professor on Jul 13, 2009 6:59:06 GMT -5
There was an attorney in my old office and one in my new office, both of whom were not selected. While they are both disappointed that they didn't get the job, they have been professional and cordial, showing no signs of bitterness toward me.
prof
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Post by nonamouse on Jul 13, 2009 12:58:38 GMT -5
I had multiple applicants in my office but only one who acted badly. This person made a production of coming to my office with every single decision they were assigned to write. They wanted to discuss my reasoning (challenge my decision) versus get clarification on instructions. Meanwhile, I was getting nothing but professionalism and support from everyone else who had applied. In fact, I helped one person who had problems with USAJOBs in 2007 to figure out how to get into the system and properly save so that he was able to finish in 2008.
A word to the newbies, there will be certain attorneys who try to pull the wool over your eyes and ask for ridiculous things just to see if you know which way is up. Gird your loins and know the procedures, SSRs and regs before you step into the first hearing. Review your files for odd issues and if necessary get a memo from an SA before the hearing so that you can avoid shaming yourself too badly that first docket. (Trust me we all will make some mistakes, but we hope to avoid the really glaring errors.) Make yourself stickies or a list so that you remember to admit the exhibits and to swear in the witnesses. It may sound easy, but if an attorney comes in with guns blazing you may get distracted and out of order.
When classmates who have prior SSA experience don't take their books to the hotel at night or on weekends at training, don't assume that means those without SSA experience can do the same. You do not want to try to cram on SSA law and procedure once you return to the office. You will be cramming on the computer software, timekeeping and many other annoying things that can slow down your day.
Good Luck and try to enjoy the rollercoaster of your first year! You will have great stories to tell at supplemental training in 2009.
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Post by privateatty on Jul 13, 2009 18:37:59 GMT -5
NY TIMES
In Search of Dignity
By DAVID BROOKS
"When George Washington was a young man, he copied out a list of 110 “Rules of Civility and Decent Behavior in Company and Conversation.” Some of the rules in his list dealt with the niceties of going to a dinner party or meeting somebody on the street.
“Lean not upon anyone,” was one of the rules. “Read no letter, books or papers in company,” was another. “If any one come to speak to you while you are sitting, stand up,” was a third.
But, as the biographer Richard Brookhiser has noted, these rules, which Washington derived from a 16th-century guidebook, were not just etiquette tips. They were designed to improve inner morals by shaping the outward man. Washington took them very seriously. He worked hard to follow them. Throughout his life, he remained acutely conscious of his own rectitude.
In so doing, he turned himself into a new kind of hero. He wasn’t primarily a military hero or a political hero. As the historian Gordon Wood has written, “Washington became a great man and was acclaimed as a classical hero because of the way he conducted himself during times of temptation. It was his moral character that set him off from other men.”
Washington absorbed, and later came to personify what you might call the dignity code. The code was based on the same premise as the nation’s Constitution — that human beings are flawed creatures who live in constant peril of falling into disasters caused by their own passions. Artificial systems have to be created to balance and restrain their desires.
The dignity code commanded its followers to be disinterested — to endeavor to put national interests above personal interests. It commanded its followers to be reticent — to never degrade intimate emotions by parading them in public. It also commanded its followers to be dispassionate — to distrust rashness, zealotry, fury and political enthusiasm.
Remnants of the dignity code lasted for decades. For most of American history, politicians did not publicly campaign for president. It was thought that the act of publicly promoting oneself was ruinously corrupting. For most of American history, memoirists passed over the intimacies of private life. Even in the 19th century, people were appalled that journalists might pollute a wedding by covering it in the press.
Today, Americans still lavishly admire people who are naturally dignified, whether they are in sports (Joe DiMaggio and Tom Landry), entertainment (Lauren Bacall and Tom Hanks) or politics (Ronald Reagan and Martin Luther King Jr.).
But the dignity code itself has been completely obliterated. The rules that guided Washington and generations of people after him are simply gone.
We can all list the causes of its demise. First, there is capitalism. We are all encouraged to become managers of our own brand, to do self-promoting end zone dances to broadcast our own talents. Second, there is the cult of naturalism. We are all encouraged to discard artifice and repression and to instead liberate our own feelings. Third, there is charismatic evangelism with its penchant for public confession. Fourth, there is radical egalitarianism and its hostility to aristocratic manners.
The old dignity code has not survived modern life. The costs of its demise are there for all to see. Every week there are new scandals featuring people who simply do not know how to act. For example, during the first few weeks of summer, three stories have dominated public conversation, and each one exemplifies another branch of indignity.
First, there was Mark Sanford’s press conference. Here was a guy utterly lacking in any sense of reticence, who was given to rambling self-exposure even in his moment of disgrace. Then there was the death of Michael Jackson and the discussion of his life. Here was a guy who was apparently untouched by any pressure to live according to the rules and restraints of adulthood. Then there was Sarah Palin’s press conference. Here was a woman who aspires to a high public role but is unfamiliar with the traits of equipoise and constancy, which are the sources of authority and trust.
In each of these events, one sees people who simply have no social norms to guide them as they try to navigate the currents of their own passions.
Americans still admire dignity. But the word has become unmoored from any larger set of rules or ethical system.
But it’s not right to end on a note of cultural pessimism because there is the fact of President Obama. Whatever policy differences people may have with him, we can all agree that he exemplifies reticence, dispassion and the other traits associated with dignity. The cultural effects of his presidency are not yet clear, but they may surpass his policy impact. He may revitalize the concept of dignity for a new generation and embody a new set of rules for self-mastery."
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Post by ohaer on Jul 14, 2009 10:50:17 GMT -5
I've been a staff attorney with OHA/ODAR for nearly 30 years, and on the register since the early 90's. We have a lot of turn- over in our office, so I've seen 30+ new ALJ's come in since I've been on the Register, and discussed both with them and with and with other OHA/ODAR ALJ candidates. I know for a fact the two coming to my office in this last round of hiring had sccores SUBSTANTIALLY below mine on the OPM scoore. The same goes for another attorney in our office, bothe of us with a with a score of 73.5 or better I am disappointed in not being selected, and the other non-selectee and We (me and annother out standinng 73.5+ scorere in our office haved our suspicisons about a HOD who may have (voluntarly ) put int a bad word about us for her own selfish sake (our writer unit is ranked#3 in productiviity and timelyness nationwide basis), so she doesn''t want to break up the "star team" of writers--who wins her substnatial award money), but that is only speculllation, althouth this HOD has been known to tell bald face lies.but bear no ill will toward the people selected, and look forward to working with them, so long as I am provided with the respect I deserve. The newbie judges will neeed my help, which I will gladly extend when solicited or needed. Let's face it, the selection process, especially once you get to Falls Church, is so whacky (out of whach?) as to make raining Tuesdays, as the primiary deciding factor. No one should not hold it against the luckly ones. I know that most of the attorney advsiors are not on the register, but both those who do make it and those who don't have a lot of common in that they understand it is one of the most the incredibly esoteric selection processes(n government) and do not (for the most part) hold it against anyone who is lucky enough to make the cut. Maybe they made it because the rain started before the interview aand stopped duuring it?  ? I know that in any other civil service proceedings, the selectors would have one hell of a lolt of explaining to do, under oath, in front of both Congressional Committees and probablly some US Disctric Cour for DC. |
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Post by valkyrie on Jul 14, 2009 12:07:10 GMT -5
I've been a staff attorney with OHA/ODAR for nearly 30 years, and on the register since the early 90's. We have a lot of turn- over in our office, so I've seen 30+ new ALJ's come in since I've been on the Register, and discussed both with them and with and with other OHA/ODAR ALJ candidates. I know for a fact the two coming to my office in this last round of hiring had sccores SUBSTANTIALLY below mine on the OPM scoore. The same goes for another attorney in our office, bothe of us with a with a score of 73.5 or better I am disappointed in not being selected, and the other non-selectee and We (me and annother out standinng 73.5+ scorere in our office haved our suspicisons about a HOD who may have (voluntarly ) put int a bad word about us for her own selfish sake (our writer unit is ranked#3 in productiviity and timelyness nationwide basis), so she doesn''t want to break up the "star team" of writers--who wins her substnatial award money), but that is only speculllation, althouth this HOD has been known to tell bald face lies.but bear no ill will toward the people selected, and look forward to working with them, so long as I am provided with the respect I deserve. The newbie judges will neeed my help, which I will gladly extend when solicited or needed. Let's face it, the selection process, especially once you get to Falls Church, is so whacky (out of whach?) as to make raining Tuesdays, as the primiary deciding factor. No one should not hold it against the luckly ones. I know that most of the attorney advsiors are not on the register, but both those who do make it and those who don't have a lot of common in that they understand it is one of the most the incredibly esoteric selection processes(n government) and do not (for the most part) hold it against anyone who is lucky enough to make the cut. Maybe they made it because the rain started before the interview aand stopped duuring it? ? I know that in any other civil service proceedings, the selectors would have one hell of a lolt of explaining to do, under oath, in front of both Congressional Committees and probablly some US Disctric Cour for DC. I think this illustrates the significant downside for insider candidates. We really don't know what information is being passed on to the selectors off the official hiring process record. Anyone in management has immediate access to the productivity records of any insider candidate, and those numbers can vary for a wide variety of reasons. Also, insiders are given a "choice" to allow their supervisor to be contacted as a reference, which of course can be a rock and a hard place. Furthermore, insiders are not even given a choice regarding their HOCALJ being contacted as a reference. You can only pray for a good working relationship with your HOD and your HOCALJ. Even then, we all know potential references that like us, know the good quality of our work, and want the best for us, but are too socially/professionally inept to trust as a reference. |
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Post by decadealj on Jul 14, 2009 12:38:21 GMT -5
OHAer- Maybe it will make you feel better, maybe not but you are not alone. From everything you have posted on this board, it is obvious thatt you would be an excellent choice for an ALJ. But everyone correct me if I am wrong but I can't think of a single AA or SA that has been selected; all the "insiders" are HODs, GSs, OGC or AC types. We have an incredible choice in our shop that didn't get selected either. Best of luck to you next go.
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Post by alj on Jul 14, 2009 12:54:22 GMT -5
OHAer- Maybe it will make you feel better, maybe not but you are not alone. From everything you have posted on this board, it is obvious thatt you would be an excellent choice for an ALJ. But everyone correct me if I am wrong but I can't think of a single AA or SA that has been selected; all the "insiders" are HODs, GSs, OGC or AC types. We have an incredible choice in our shop that didn't get selected either. Best of luck to you next go. Without thinking about it, I know of at least one SA who was selected this time. |
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Post by nonamouse on Jul 14, 2009 13:14:32 GMT -5
OHAer- Maybe it will make you feel better, maybe not but you are not alone. From everything you have posted on this board, it is obvious thatt you would be an excellent choice for an ALJ. But everyone correct me if I am wrong but I can't think of a single AA or SA that has been selected; all the "insiders" are HODs, GSs, OGC or AC types. We have an incredible choice in our shop that didn't get selected either. Best of luck to you next go. I was in a class with multiple SAs and I was an AA. I was better "qualified" to be an ALJ with all of my outside experience (prior to ODAR) that really counts for squat on the application for SA. They won't give you the max points for SA unless you have been with ODAR at least 8 years, so longevity trumps talent. Everyone needs to remember that the OPM points only get you to the dance and 3 outstanding people competing for 1 spot means 2 unhappy people at the end of it. More chances will come along even for those with a crummy HOD who may be dropping a bad word about them. If the HOD is as described, I'm sure they have built their own rep within the agency that may drop a grain of salt on anything they say about others. Staying positive and doing a great job at whatever your current position may be is my best advice for those still waiting. Take opportunities for details or projects that may get your face known outside of your hearing office (for insiders) also. I have a friend who languished as an AA until he built his rep as a star outside of his hearing office (excellent work on a difficult detail) and then magically another office stole him away as a valued SA. |
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Post by ALJD on Jul 14, 2009 16:49:08 GMT -5
Without thinking about it, I know of at least one SA who was selected this time. About 18 of 54 or so current SSA employees hired were SAs. I believe 5 AAs were hired. So total SA + AA were around 23 or so. |
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Post by decadealj on Jul 14, 2009 18:24:58 GMT -5
My bust- thanks.
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? I know that in any other civil service proceedings, the selectors would have one hell of a lolt of explaining to do, under oath, in front of both Congressional Committees and probablly some US Disctric Cour for DC.
