alsha
New Member
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Post by alsha on Dec 26, 2009 15:03:43 GMT -5
I am a newbie, I submitted an application during the November opening, and my status is currently "awaiting results - you will be notified."
Not trying to count my chickens before they hatch, but I would like to begin studying up in advance, just in case I get that magic e-mail at a later date, inviting me to sit for the written demonstration.
After searching the threads in an effort to determine the content of the exam, what I have found is that it is "basically like the practical exam when you sat for the Bar ages ago."
I take this to mean that dusting off my old BarBri review books would likely be the best way to prepare for this test. Any thoughts on this strategy would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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Post by awcpurple on Dec 26, 2009 20:49:40 GMT -5
I suggest you practice typing without a spellchecker, then get a good night's sleep the night before the exam. Don't waste a second of time studying. The exam will give you the facts of the case and the "law" that is relevant, and then expect you to apply the facts to the "law." The statutes and regs supplied are created for the purpose of the exam. No real law to study. Good luck!
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Post by akhjd on Dec 27, 2009 9:52:44 GMT -5
Agreed. Don't waste your time. It sounds like the exam tests a skill-set that you either have or you don't- that "spotting the issues" phenomenon we learned in law school and do every day. I asked a former applicant about the exam and was told that test takers must sign a paper agreeing not to speak about the exam or its contents to anyone after the test. So you will be hard pressed to get more information on the content. That said, she told me that the exam is "not a worry." I have the impression that it is a very basic test.
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lee
Full Member
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Post by lee on Dec 27, 2009 11:40:27 GMT -5
alsha-
I agree completely with the advice that you have been given. Get plenty of rest, and stay calm. The test is designed, in my opinion, to identify your ability to perform the most basic function that an alj does (with any state or federal agency)--identify issues, articulate your reasoning, refer to the evidence which supports that reasoning, and then set forth a ruling on each of the issues. It does not concern the substantive law in any area. There isn't anyway to study for this.
Good luck.
lee
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Post by notajudgeyet on Dec 27, 2009 12:27:56 GMT -5
I am a newbie, I submitted an application during the November opening, and my status is currently "awaiting results - you will be notified." Not trying to count my chickens before they hatch, but I would like to begin studying up in advance, just in case I get that magic e-mail at a later date, inviting me to sit for the written demonstration. After searching the threads in an effort to determine the content of the exam, what I have found is that it is "basically like the practical exam when you sat for the Bar ages ago." I take this to mean that dusting off my old BarBri review books would likely be the best way to prepare for this test. Any thoughts on this strategy would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. In California the section that is like the WD is called the "performance exam". It gives you a set of facts accompanied by fictional law. You have to read the facts, spot the issues and apply them to the fictional law. It is a great help in preparing for the WD to run through Barbri's California performance exam questions. Some may think that everyday lawyering will prepare you for the WD but it doesn't come close to the preparation Barbri gives you. You can buy old Barbri books on ebay fairly cheaply. |
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Post by privateatty on Dec 27, 2009 17:02:13 GMT -5
I suggest you practice typing without a spellchecker, then get a good night's sleep the night before the exam. Don't waste a second of time studying. The exam will give you the facts of the case and the "law" that is relevant, and then expect you to apply the facts to the "law." The statutes and regs supplied are created for the purpose of the exam. No real law to study. Good luck! I took the exam in '07 and '08. This is the best advice. There is nothing to study and you either are good at this type of exercise or you are not. Most of you have done this type of memo a gazillion times in practice. Lawyering 101... |
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Post by notajudgeyet on Dec 27, 2009 18:08:02 GMT -5
I suggest you practice typing without a spellchecker, then get a good night's sleep the night before the exam. Don't waste a second of time studying. The exam will give you the facts of the case and the "law" that is relevant, and then expect you to apply the facts to the "law." The statutes and regs supplied are created for the purpose of the exam. No real law to study. Good luck! I took the exam in '07 and '08. This is the best advice. There is nothing to study and you either are good at this type of exercise or you are not. Most of you have done this type of memo a gazillion times in practice. Lawyering 101... Depends upon what your practice is. Some have never done it at all. And doing it with fictitious law is an experience you normally only have on the WD or on a bar exam. You absolutely can study issue spotting. People who have flunked the California performance exam, and there are many, can tell you that. I do appreciate you telling people not to study for it though. I don't really need the competition. |
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Post by Orly on Dec 27, 2009 23:43:05 GMT -5
I do appreciate you telling people not to study for it though. I don't really need the competition. I agree with PA on this. I didn't bother studying for the WD after finding out it was a practical exam like the practical part of the CA Bar. The substantive laws were all fictional and made up, and you either have the ability to perform under time constraint or you don't, so there really isn't much you can study for. Basically if you can't use a computer well or read/write slow, you're in trouble. Otherwise there's not much to worry about. Anyway, not studying for the WD didn't hurt me one bit. So don't feel obliged to concentrate too much efforts there.  |
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alsha
New Member
Posts: 3
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Post by alsha on Dec 28, 2009 10:29:47 GMT -5
I'm the OP: thanks for the input everyone, I appreciate both your time and advice.
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Post by privateatty on Dec 28, 2009 13:01:53 GMT -5
I took the exam in '07 and '08. This is the best advice. There is nothing to study and you either are good at this type of exercise or you are not. Most of you have done this type of memo a gazillion times in practice. Lawyering 101... Depends upon what your practice is. Some have never done it at all. And doing it with fictitious law is an experience you normally only have on the WD or on a bar exam. You absolutely can study issue spotting. People who have flunked the California performance exam, and there are many, can tell you that. I do appreciate you telling people not to study for it though. I don't really need the competition. Well that is an interesting comment. In all of the ALJ positions I have seen/heard of, issue spotting and identifying relevant facts is crucial. If you feel you need to study issue spotting after law school, a bar exam and at least 7 years of lawyering, then perhaps you need to question your ability to do the job. Put another way, this process at the very least requires that you be very positive that you can do this job. The SI tends to spot the timid and insecure. |
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Post by carjack on Dec 28, 2009 15:08:04 GMT -5
I ready lots of OSHA cases and Labor Law cases - just to get the feel for making/writing a decision as a judge would - you are expected to write the examination as if you are the decision-maker. I agree that reading admin decisions would be helpful if you haven't practiced a lot of federal admin law. I don't think that you will necessarily get any bright new ideas, but it may make you feel like you could write a decision yourself and not miss any of the crucial points. |
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Post by extang on Dec 29, 2009 7:31:20 GMT -5
I took the exam many years ago. As far as I can tell from what people are allowed to say about it, it has not changed at all. In preparation, I did read one of those little books (Nutshells, is that what they're called?) that law students use to prepare for exams, on administrative law, and I think it helped. I suspect that even if you are very good at issue spotting, if you are working on a different area of law, you may be a little rusty on issues that can arise in admin law, and my impression is that the WD is at least very likely and maybe certain to involve admin law.
On the other hand, I emphasize that I only think it helped. I do know that I got a high score in the WD [in those days OPM told us how we did on the components of the exam, which I gather they no longer do], but I really do not know how or why. Possibly the most important point in all the messages above, that I would urge all of you to keep in mind, is Patriotsfan's entirely correct insistence on the randomness and capriciousness of this process.
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Post by decadealj on Dec 29, 2009 11:27:52 GMT -5
I believe any federal agency attorney experienced in writing administrative law decisions will be much more comfortable with the format most beneficial to scoring high on the exam. It isn't just issue spotting- its knowing how to format the decision so that scorers using templates can evaluate your work. For private practitioners not experienced with administrative law decisions, I recommend you review a couple of decisions before the WD. I know that Coast Guard ALJ decisions are available on-line and IMHO they were generally very well written.. I am sure there are others but the Coast Guard is a good start.
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Post by runningman on Dec 29, 2009 11:55:09 GMT -5
Everyone needs to do what works for them. I didn't like going to court unprepared, but it worked for others. I wanted to do something before I took the WD, even though there's nothing you can really to do study for it. Nevertheless, I reviewed ALJ decisions and reviewed AdLaw. It didn't hurt, and it gave me something to do while I waited...and there's a lot of waiting in this process.
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Post by privateatty on Dec 29, 2009 12:43:03 GMT -5
I believe any federal agency attorney experienced in writing administrative law decisions will be much more comfortable with the format most beneficial to scoring high on the exam. It isn't just issue spotting- its knowing how to format the decision so that scorers using templates can evaluate your work. For private practitioners not experienced with administrative law decisions, I recommend you review a couple of decisions before the WD. I know that Coast Guard ALJ decisions are available on-line and IMHO they were generally very well written.. I am sure there are others but the Coast Guard is a good start. Looking at decisions can't hurt, and if you are not at all familiar with ALJ decision formats, then it might even help. Many have their decisions online. Google "ALJ Decisions" and you can read more decisions than you ever thought (or wanted to). Yeah, I can agree with this. That's all I did for 20+ years (I don't want to confess to what an old fut I am)  , so its hard for me to relate. But if you don't know anything about admin law decisions, then yes, by all means, follow decadealj's advice and that which is on here. |
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Post by zarco522 on Jan 7, 2010 23:43:59 GMT -5
First look through this forum. Nutshells and basic Ad Law books are mentioned, other resources too. Read one if it helps you relax. I looked at a few ALJ decisions in various sorts of agencies to see the layouts. I confess to being a total nerd who created a notebook of things from this forum and an outline of the Ad Law book -- it was over kill but calmed me down. Stay at a hotel where you can walk to the exam, chat with the others. The computers are not that different (no spell check is a drag). Good luck
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Post by ruonthelist on Jan 8, 2010 8:11:50 GMT -5
I agree with the posters who said not to bother trying to learn any substantive law for the WD. You have no idea of the subject matter that will be on your test. I skimmed the West Nutshell and Gilberts on admin law to re-familiarize myself with general concepts. I didn't spend long on that, and can't say whether it helped my score at all, but I think that it helped me organize my thoughts in the outlining stage before I began writing.
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knownuthin
Full Member
Out of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.
Posts: 114
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Post by knownuthin on Jan 8, 2010 13:30:35 GMT -5
Check out the old thread - WD/SI logistics questions dated Oct 3, 2008. It offers some of the same advice. I agree with reviewing other ALJ decisions for format/style ideas. Here's what I said back in Oct 08.
Re: WD/SI logistics questions
« Result #23 on Oct 8, 2008, 3:26pm »
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In preparation for the WD, I Googled "ALJ Decisions" and got hits on several sites for different agencies that had published ALJ decisions. I selected various decisions from different sites and printed them so I could study the format and structure. I was very familiar with ODAR decisions, but I wanted to see if there were any significant differences with other agencies' decisions. I don't know whether it help me in any way other than giving me a little boost in confidence because I had done some preparation for an examination for which I could not study.
Good luck and Happy New Year to all.
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, so its hard for me to relate. But if you don't know anything about admin law decisions, then yes, by all means, follow decadealj's advice and that which is on here. 