Most "elite" agencies for which to serve as an ALJ

[kxmulli]

I thought that ALJ's have the same pension as other federal employees not under Article III?

[deltajudge]

8-)Doesn't make any difference which agency you go with, they are all under the same pay scale, they may look down on the SSA ALJs, but they are all in the same boat paywise. So your ego will guide you.

[Well]

Worrying about status? Wow.

[71stretch]

Jun 24, 2010 20:44:54 GMT -5 @sloppyjoe said:

Jun 24, 2010 19:14:50 GMT -5 ladywordsmith said:

Okay, I've held my personal opinions as much as I could on these threads. I've tried to give information and encouragement. But I've got to weigh in on this one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Here's what I say:

You're kidding me right? Before you even become an ALJ, you're talking about what's the most "elite" agency to work for?!?!?! What I say is, "Please don't go into the job with that elitist attitude."

In my view, this is one of the most important jobs there is -- and what we BRING to the job in terms of dedication, work ethic and willingness to learn how to perform the job -- whether it's for one homeless veteran or the entire country -- is what is my concern. Not how elite it is or what would be the most elite agency to work for (or why don't I have better retirement benefits than other federal employees).

I'm sorry, but you really touched a raw nerve on this one -- I didn't go through all of this to be "elite." I did it because I believe that I have something to give and that I can do it better than some of the "retirees on the job" and "village idiots" that I've seen.

What do I say? I say that I want to be the absolute best care-taker of my little share of the world that I can, and I have NEVER thought about what are the "most elite agencies."

Peace and Blessings,

Ladywordsmith

wow lighten up

Well, she did say you touched a raw nerve, and she was pretty pleasant about it. There's been a lot of discussion here about the elitist attitude that some ALJs bring to the position, or develop once there., and the problems that can create in an office. Many of those of us here who are actively trying to join the federal ALJ corps at this very moment, for the reasons that Ladywordsmith articulated, aren't asking the questions you've posed here today.

[hilltopper]

Ladywordsmith raises a good point -- albeit a little emphatically. Elitism has no place in this process. I'm proof of that.

I originally applied in 2007, taking my Law Review Editor, U.S. District Court Clerk, State Appelate Court Clerk chip on my shoulder to the WD and the SI.

I was so sure I was what OPM and the agencies were looking for that I didn't prepare much, answered their questions as if I were already a federal judge and generally treated the selection process with a modest amount of disdain.

And the result was predictable (with 20/20 hindsight) I tanked -- big time.

After that very humbling experience, I was not able to retake the tests when they reopened the register in 2009 ... I was within the one year period since receipt of my NOR. I expanded my GAL but to no avail. No cert. Nothing.

Now the stange part is that generally speaking I'm not that thingyy and usually very careful about how I approach a task. But because I had worked hard previously, I assumed I was in. [As originally posted the word "thingyy" was another word that could have been a male rooster +y I just looked back through this thread and saw that the system had censored my use of a perfectly acceptable word and substituted "thingyy." I got a nice laugh out of that.]

This time, I prepared better, studied what ALJ's do versus Article III judges read agency opinions including several from the EPA, and had a much more calm and focused approach to the process. The result was a 20 point higher NOR, and a sense that I still may not have done enough because no matter how I slice it, my odds of selection are still only 1 in 3.

Elitist mentality? Not anymore. Like Ladywordsmith I see this job as being a servant leader called on to make decisions that touch lives ... regardless of which agency I might possibly be lucky enough to go to work for.

Tried an elitist mentality to start with. Didn't like the results. This time, I'm hoping my more genuine approach is able to convince them that I am ready willing and able to perform well in a job that is my career goal.

Hope springs eternal ... but I'm not quitting my day job.

[privateatty]

sloppyjoe was just trying to make conversation. Where's patriotsfan, valkyrie, jagghagg and drwho when we need them?

To begin with, the only Agencies other than SSA that "regularly" hire off the Register are OMHA, Labor and HUD (that I know of). The last agency is not a great place to work now and while the other two have good reputations, they only hire a handful, and not every year. I guess if you ran the numbers it would be around 3 to 5% other Agencies, the rest SSA.

Now (and this is where we get into dead horse territory) since 2007 SSA has convinced OPM to allow administrative work in lieu of litigation experience and the result has been that alot of favored sons and daughters of SSA and a few other Agencies (including reps) have been hired. This has caused a degree of consternation amongst some of the Judges insofar as they are concerned that a lack of bench and jury trial experience does not bode well for these other Agency vacancies--as they only hire sitting ALJs. Now this is a topic that can cause dustups and I have no desire for one, but I believe most SSA ALJs can jump into Labor or NLRB, etc. and rule on trial objections and motions without much of a learning curve.

But elite Agencies? ladywordsmith has a point, that kind of thinking rankles, even though there are, I'm sure, ALJs at smaller Agencies who think that somehow they are smarter or better than your average SSA ALJ. The Administrative Procedure Act which gave us birth has no such distinction--we are all part of the Corps.

Finally I applaud hilltopper's honesty. A long time ago in a far land I thought ALJs mostly boobs and that I always knew the law better than they did. I thought I checked my arrogance at the court-room door, but now as I look back on it I'm not so sure. The point is that I know of very very few Judges who breezed into the job and none of them brag about it. If you are lucky enough to get picked up Mr. Sloppy, and you don't fall to yoiur knees and thank your God and/or lucky stars, shame on you. I'm not sure how well you'd do at another Agency interview.

[workdrone]

I concur with many of the good points raised by ladywordsmith, Delta, and PA. If Sloppy's goal was to start off a conversation, he definitely succeeded.

This topic reminded me of a phase I heard many years ago while in uniform. Since that was back in the saltier days and the world has changed, I'll modify it to fit the discussion here so as not to offend polite company.

"Status among ALJs is like rank among lieutenants." Kudo to ye old warhorses who remember the original quote.

All line ALJs have important duty in their respective fields of law, and their decisions are important to the parties that appear before them. All line ALJs goes on the same pay scale, and to the average joe, it really makes no difference whether the guy works at FERC or SSA. And if you ever try to claim "elite" status to another ALJ, you're probably not going to be well received. The most important thing is enjoying what you do. If you love your work, then the rest will follow naturally.

Anyway, don't get too tied up in the status thing. If that's your attitude going into the office, you would get the opposite results. True respect has to be earned and maintained by deeds, not just titles or hollow words. Remember, at the end of the day, we have an obligation to our oath of office and the American people.

[71stretch]

Well, sloppyjoe did start a conversation for sure. A lot of good points made here will serve him well when he applies (if he hasn't already) for an ALJ position, and will help others here as well.

[bartleby]

OMG, it suddenly occurred to me that the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) uses basically the same process to hire ALJ's as SSA does.. I certainly hope that at some level they are able to weed out some of the one's that we should have weeded out.. At least no large city gets nuked or disappears in a cloud when one of our Judge's misses something, as some are wont to do.. (only on the slightest of occasions, of course)..

[onewhoknowsii]

I have been asked by several prospects about the SSA exam and more recently, to check whether tidbits about the SSA's impending hiring developments as related on this website are correct. My username is adapted from a former applicant, "onewhoknows," who was a firebrand of inspiration, a former vet that died in 2001 before being hired off the list.

I am a former SSA judge now a judge with another agency. I transferred, not because I didn't like the work, but for locational reasons. Having become familiar with the work of other judges at the other agencies. I can assure you that SSA work is as interesting, if not more, than the work of other agencies. You won't like it, of course, if you have a problem with or disinterest in analyzing medical proof. The fact is that by becoming an ALJ for a federal agency, given your limited jurisdiction, you will be dealing with the same issues case after case - whether its FERC, Labor, Agriculture, NLRB, Interior, EPA, SEC, etc. So if you have a problem with dealing with the same type of cases over and over again, ALJ work is not for you.

SSA comprises, as of the last report that I recall seeing, about 84% of the total ALJ corps. If it were not for the existence of such a large number of SSA judges, I venture to say that judges in the other agencies would not be judges, but probably throwbacks to terms like hearing examiners, etc. That's what we were called way back when.

Now to FERC, which touches a raw nerve. FERC's prestige is clearly form over substance. They have a tradition over there of robing ceremonies and sitting for pictures as if they were the Supreme Court. Yet, the majority of their contingent are prime players in FORUM, the anti-AALJ organization set up in the 1990's. What's most disturbing is their push to pursue negotiations with Bush's OPM by offering to discuss performance appraisals for ALJs in return for pay compression relief. Want a chuckle in your day? Go to the FERC website for their latest group photo (see Directory of Judges). They also have nice hearing rooms! Big deal. They issue "initial decisions" like every other regulatory and adjudicatory agencies. Their work is governed by a regulatory framework, just like SSA, but they entail the industry's expert proof on costs, markets, etc. SSA cases include more credibility determinations and a more diverse load of expert reports. In any event, if you want to be with the elite, start donating big time money to your Congressional rep so you can get a district court appointment.

Good luck to you all.

[bartleby]

Well said..

[71stretch]

Jun 25, 2010 10:10:26 GMT -5 onewhoknowsii said:

I have been asked by several prospects about the SSA exam and more recently, to check whether tidbits about the SSA's impending hiring developments as related on this website are correct. My username is adapted from a former applicant, "onewhoknows," who was a firebrand of inspiration, a former vet that died in 2001 before being hired off the list.

I am a former SSA judge now a judge with another agency. I transferred, not because I didn't like the work, but for locational reasons. Having become familiar with the work of other judges at the other agencies. I can assure you that SSA work is as interesting, if not more, than the work of other agencies. You won't like it, of course, if you have a problem with or disinterest in analyzing medical proof. The fact is that by becoming an ALJ for a federal agency, given your limited jurisdiction, you will be dealing with the same issues case after case - whether its FERC, Labor, Agriculture, NLRB, Interior, EPA, SEC, etc. So if you have a problem with dealing with the same type of cases over and over again, ALJ work is not for you.

SSA comprises, as of the last report that I recall seeing, about 84% of the total ALJ corps. If it were not for the existence of such a large number of SSA judges, I venture to say that judges in the other agencies would not be judges, but probably throwbacks to terms like hearing examiners, etc. That's what we were called way back when.

Now to FERC, which touches a raw nerve. FERC's prestige is clearly form over substance. They have a tradition over there of robing ceremonies and sitting for pictures as if they were the Supreme Court. Yet, the majority of their contingent are prime players in FORUM, the anti-AALJ organization set up in the 1990's. What's most disturbing is their push to pursue negotiations with Bush's OPM by offering to discuss performance appraisals for ALJs in return for pay compression relief. Want a chuckle in your day? Go to the FERC website for their latest group photo (see Directory of Judges). They also have nice hearing rooms! Big deal. They issue "initial decisions" like every other regulatory and adjudicatory agencies. Their work is governed by a regulatory framework, just like SSA, but they entail the industry's expert proof on costs, markets, etc. SSA cases include more credibility determinations and a more diverse load of expert reports. In any event, if you want to be with the elite, start donating big time money to your Congressional rep so you can get a district court appointment.

Good luck to you all.

Very good post. BTW, I took your advice and went to look at the picture. Thanks for the chuckle.

[counsel]

If the original question is which agency is the best for which to work, I think it is the one closest to home, with a schedule that works with my family life, with experts in a field I find interesting, a reasonable number of cases and hearings, collegial co-workers, and currently no travel. Ideally it would also require, at some future date about which I dream, when I have the time and ability, travel dockets to warm places in winter and cool ones in summer. I am happy where I am but am also keeping my eyes open!

[privateatty]

Jun 25, 2010 10:10:26 GMT -5 onewhoknowsii said:

I have been asked by several prospects about the SSA exam and more recently, to check whether tidbits about the SSA's impending hiring developments as related on this website are correct. My username is adapted from a former applicant, "onewhoknows," who was a firebrand of inspiration, a former vet that died in 2001 before being hired off the list.

I am a former SSA judge now a judge with another agency. I transferred, not because I didn't like the work, but for locational reasons. Having become familiar with the work of other judges at the other agencies. I can assure you that SSA work is as interesting, if not more, than the work of other agencies. You won't like it, of course, if you have a problem with or disinterest in analyzing medical proof. The fact is that by becoming an ALJ for a federal agency, given your limited jurisdiction, you will be dealing with the same issues case after case - whether its FERC, Labor, Agriculture, NLRB, Interior, EPA, SEC, etc. So if you have a problem with dealing with the same type of cases over and over again, ALJ work is not for you.

SSA comprises, as of the last report that I recall seeing, about 84% of the total ALJ corps. If it were not for the existence of such a large number of SSA judges, I venture to say that judges in the other agencies would not be judges, but probably throwbacks to terms like hearing examiners, etc. That's what we were called way back when.

Now to FERC, which touches a raw nerve. FERC's prestige is clearly form over substance. They have a tradition over there of robing ceremonies and sitting for pictures as if they were the Supreme Court. Yet, the majority of their contingent are prime players in FORUM, the anti-AALJ organization set up in the 1990's. What's most disturbing is their push to pursue negotiations with Bush's OPM by offering to discuss performance appraisals for ALJs in return for pay compression relief. Want a chuckle in your day? Go to the FERC website for their latest group photo (see Directory of Judges). They also have nice hearing rooms! Big deal. They issue "initial decisions" like every other regulatory and adjudicatory agencies. Their work is governed by a regulatory framework, just like SSA, but they entail the industry's expert proof on costs, markets, etc. SSA cases include more credibility determinations and a more diverse load of expert reports. In any event, if you want to be with the elite, start donating big time money to your Congressional rep so you can get a district court appointment.

Good luck to you all.

Welcome onewhoknowsii! What a great post. I only want to respond to one point, although there are many good ones here.

As I stated in my previous post here, the ALJ Corps is a creature of statute and as one poster (I can't remember who) stated, "what Congress has given, Congress can take away." Now granted, few lawyers and Judges can imagine life without the APA and our extensive Regulatory scheme, but we have no Constitutional protection. If a crazy Congress decides that the only way to really deal with the SSA backlog is to do away with the APA and make us all hearing examiners and Agency toadies, then it is possible that such a thing could happen. Of course our US Supreme Court would hopefully rule against Congress as they would see the huge uptick in cases before their inferior Courts, but the point is they would not help us because they love ALJs.

The AALJ and FALJC is the Union and Association (along with the ABA) are the firewall between you as an ALJ and the Agency. Anyone who is in SSA or has watched what has happened at HUD knows the danger of unchecked Agency power. Now there are more than a few posters here who are SSA employees, some of whom are ALJs, who poo-poo such concerns (one rather notorious one who had a brief dustup with the one "whose name cannot be spoken") that think the AALJ
are little more than a defense organization for problem Judges. So be it. Do you not think that SSA has made this issue a top priority in hiring? Put another way, what do you think are your chances of being hired by SSA if you demonstrate anything but total fealty to the Agency and all their hair-brained initiatives? Sure, SSA wants producers first and foremost but you would have to be pretty naive to think that they are not on the lookout for attorneys who are in any way concerned about ALJ independence.

Given what I think are these realities, I would urge you new ALJs to take a stand for ALJ independence and join AALJ or FALJC or both. Agency management is spending alot of their time trying to figure out how to make y'all more productive and if that tramples your judicial independence, well, they do have their OGC to defend them.

[kxmulli]

What happened at HUD?

[pedaltone]

Perhaps, a better question might be which agencies offer the best quality of life in terms of work, resources, location and ALJ-management relations.

[decadealj]

My guess is that Labor and the Coast Guard treats their ALJs as well as aanyone.

[barkley]

Jun 26, 2010 11:21:51 GMT -5 pedaltone said:

Perhaps, a better question might be which agencies offer the best quality of life in terms of work, resources, location and ALJ-management relations.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

If your idea of "best" quality of life is Washington DC, lots of agencies would fit. If raising your kids near your parents in Florence, Fargo or Fresno is your definition of "best" then SSA has alot more opportunities. If you want to touch as many individual lives as possible, SSA is "best," but if you have poor people skills and hate reading medical evidence avoid SSA and Medicare like the plague. And so on.

None of the agencies is "best" for everyone, merely different.

[pedaltone]

Jun 26, 2010 14:57:54 GMT -5 barkley said:

Jun 26, 2010 11:21:51 GMT -5 pedaltone said:

Perhaps, a better question might be which agencies offer the best quality of life in terms of work, resources, location and ALJ-management relations.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

If your idea of "best" quality of life is Washington DC, lots of agencies would fit. If raising your kids near your parents in Florence, Fargo or Fresno is your definition of "best" then SSA has alot more opportunities. If you want to touch as many individual lives as possible, SSA is "best," but if you have poor people skills and hate reading medical evidence avoid SSA and Medicare like the plague. And so on.

None of the agencies is "best" for everyone, merely different.

Of course any "best" would be contingent and, by most metrics, subjective.

That, of course, begs the question of whether such an exercise can be useful (for reasons other than entertainment).

Perhaps it can be if those who opine also explain since the explanation might shed light on one or more corners of the leviathan that is the federal government.

[privateatty]

barkley said it as well as anyone.

Rather an academic inquiry until you get an offer, eh Watson?