Leave a $350k biglaw job to be an ALJ?

[philliesfan]

Whether it is worth depends on you. Do you need to make that much money? Remember, ALJ's salaries are capped presently at @ $165,000.00 per year, which isn't bad but not $350,000+ per year. On the other hand, I am able to do the job and will probably issue 600+ decisions this year and I go home at 4:30 P.M every day. So it depends on how you do the job. I was eating lunch with a couple of other SSA ALJs and we all agreed that it is a good job.

If you want to see your kids grow up and go to their games and concerts, etc., this job will give you the opportunity to do that. However, I admit that at least at ODAR, your umpteenth bad back and depression case can be boring but, on the other hand, you never know what's going to happen when you walk into a hearing room, which can sometimes be entertaining and you have an opportunity to make some peoples' lives better.

You have to decide what is important to you.

[frev]

How about you leave something for us schmucks making 5 figures?

If you are used to that much money, and presumably living in a major metro area, I think you are going to find it tough to adjust to making half that and living in BFE Mississippi, as the job would likely require. No offense to Mississippians, but NYC it ain't. I would also think that your current job is probably far more interesting and challenging, legally speaking, if for no other reason than it is presumably more varied.

But you would certainly increase the amount of family time and your days of sucking up would be over, unless you want to move up the ALJ management ladder.

[jibtrimmer]

Interesting. I think billing 2400 is bad enough by itself, but twice you expressed concern about "kissing up." Is the lack of that the appeal of being an Article III or other judge? If so, being an ALJ fits the bill, with no politics or standing for re-election. It's a great and meaningful job, where it's not about making ever more money, but serving the public and helping people in often desperate straits. How would that suit you?

[Maggie]

I think you will be bored stiff.
And I think your spouse/family will miss the $350 g's.
Alot of change to find out if you can handle the tedium, or not. But you could always go back to litigation, as do many ALJs who realize it's not their cup of tea. Not the end of the world, I guess.

[deltajudge]

8-)aljfaq, I was an ALJ for 30 years, and retired as e-dib and video hearings were coming in. During that time I worked in 3 offices in metropolitan areas. All those offices had satellite hearing sites, so we were out of the office at times, plus we were always getting hearing details to other hearing offices all over the country. All my duty stations were in Region IV, and I got details to California, Florida, Michigan, Louisiana, Illinois, New York, and even Puerto Rico. With the advent of video hearings, and national hearing offices, those are few and far between, if not non-existent, current ALJs will have to advise you about that. After awhile the work ceases to be exciting or interesting. However, the decision to take the job was the best I ever made in the long run, it was a great job, and I'm sure it still is, you just won't be out of the office as much as I was. Although the work content is monotonous, you will be meeting all levels of society.

[hopefalj]

I would think that you would be better off at a smaller shop where you could have a greater quality of life, fewer politics, and better control of your career while taking a similar pay cut. I agree with others that you'd likely be bored taking an ALJ job.

[maybe]

If you've never been drawn to public service, the job may not be right for you.

[bartleby]

I think you need to find a nearby ODAR office and spend a day or two to see if you really want to do it. Opinions about the job vary widely and probably based on personality. You will have 2 1/2 to 3 hours to prepare for a hearing. Depending on the office, files may average 200 pages or 500 pages. You will be asked to do 2-3 hearings a day, relentlessly. If you take vacation or are sick, the Agency expects you to make up the work when you return. As a friend of mine said, this was the first factory job he has ever had. You have very little authority as an ALJ. You are not in a Court room, you are in a hearing room, often uncomfortably hot or cold. You have no authority over your assistants. There is no room in the job for creativity. Some people love it and some hate it. A judge in my class resigned after a year and half due to management disputes. She loved the job and was doing a good job of it, but management was intent on micromanaging her and she couldn't stand it. Some offices remind you daily as to the daily and weekly goals. Some don't. If these kind of things are not your cup of tea, think about it. The title Judge and a buck ninty-five will usually buy you a cup of coffee. You will be a glorified hearing officer and management will remind you of that often.. I like the job, but it's not for everyone and offices vary greatly..

[hamster]

aljfaq: I echo what philliesfan says. However, I disagree in part with what bartleby stated. Yes, the Agency "expects you to make up the work" if you're out sick or on vacation. However, so what? The Agency has a goal of 500-700 dispositions per ALJ per year. If you make it, great. If you work conscientously and don't, what are they going to do to you? Other people may disagree with me, but if you put in an honest day's work and fail to meet the goal, the Agency won't do anything. You might see some hand-wringing by your HOCALJ if they're that sort, but if they're not, you probably won't.

The post I'm commenting on also states that you have "very little authority" as an ALJ. That's true in the sense that you can't hold a rude or belligerent claimant or representative in contempt, and you have no authority to enforce a subpoena. But as an ALJ you can exercise a degree of authority if you earn that authority. That is, if an ALJ is condescending, demeaning, or intimidating to claimants and with reps, or ignores policy, then that ALJ will be frustrated and impotent. But if you conduct hearings like you should, and treat claimants, other witnesses, reps, and staff with courtesy and professionalism, you will have earned, and be able to exercise, any authority you need.

Finally, there's mention of there being no room in the job for "creativity." I demur. Like philliesfan says, there are "umpteen" depression and bad back cases, and a case with routine facts might result in a routine decision--i.e., there isn't much creativity you need to employ in that particular case. But other cases have very unique claimants, or very unique facts, and one, if desired, can personally write paragraphs and paragraphs in the final decision--i.e., you can be as creative as you want. Of course, you still have to be "policy compliant" and follow the law (but so does a "real" judge), but you can employ creativity if you want to do so--I like to write, so it comes easy to me.

You might have a claimant who is young, beat his drug habit, and struggling to support a family, get his GED, and set a good example for his children--but might not be disabled per the SSA. A lot of the claimants I've seen have never gotten much encouragement in their lives and have lived a pretty hardscrabble existence. You can take the time to utilize "The Golden Rule," by ensuring that the final decision gives that struggling young person some encouragement and positive feedback--that's one way of looking at creativity. Admittedly, other claimants have less compelling stories and some lie through their teeth to you. You can employ creativity in those decisions if you want--or not.

I agree that there can be a lot of tediousness in this job. OTOH, every hearing is different. Every hearing deserves your full attention. Every claimant and representative deserves to be treated courteously and be listened to. Each hearing is really important to that particular individual who is claiming to be disabled. If one gets pleasure from "public service"--and I know that I am someone who does and would be most unhappy practicing corporate law--being an ALJ (at SSA, in my case) can be really rewarding.

This job, like most law jobs, can be as stultifying or as satisfying as you make it. I hope you make the right decision for yourself.

Best, Hamster

[barkley]

Remember, you mileage may vary.

I don't know anyone who does 2 or 3 hearings a day. In every office I have worked in, the ALJs typically held hearings on 5-8 days of the month and do 5-10 per day. You have a great deal of flexibility as to your time. You chose which days you have hearings, which days you prep - you are an adult and are expected to process 500-900 cases a year. How you do that is up to you. You don't really have to "make up" work, you just have to plan how to get your 500 cases out. I know a judge who likes to take a month off each year - he just plans his workload during the year to accomodate that.

The worst part of the job is you have no control over staff. Management assigns clerks to help you with your dockets and writers to write your decisions. When you are assigned someone who is unable or unwilling to do their job, there is NOTHING you can do about it. Also annoying are emails regarding goals and stauts updates, but then again you do have a delete button on the computer.

The best part of the job is that you can have a full life outside of work. You put in your 8 hours and go home, leaving the job in the office. No midnight phone calls, no sparring with opposing counsel, no stress about paying the secretary or the light bill. You can't put a price tag on your time and your family. We get paid well for a 40 hour week, with benefits, leave and all those federal holidays.

[bartleby]

Barkley the average number of hearings expected is 2-3 per day, per month. I guess it doesn't matter if you do 2-3 a day or 10 a day, 5-6 days a month, the expectation is 2-3 per day. That is what I meant. Expectations are 500-700 per year unless you have heard something I haven't. The Agency has a limit of 80 hearings scheduled per month as a maximum.

[southeastalj]

I came from big law and took a substantial paycut for the position and could not be happier. As compared to private practice, the ALJ job has no stress level to speak of. Anyone who has billed 2400 hours a year will find it simple to meet the agency expectation of 500-700 dispositions a year. I'm home by 430 every day and didn't miss my blackberry after a week in the new position. Most of the folks who complain about agency expectations have never worked outside of the government environment.

[jlee1962]

I used to recruit attorneys from $350K + jobs for the US Department of Labor. Granted, we are a litigation office so it is rarely tedious or boring == but I can say that none of them regretted the loss of income. They learned to work to live rather than live to work - and still have a rewarding career. I moved up the government food chain and didn't make that kind of money but was on 24/7 and ran an office of 25 attorneys with over 1000 litigation cases per year. Two years ago, I got off the merry-go-round and lateralled to a senior trial attorney position so I could get back in the courtroom - partly to improve my score on this test. I have no regrets - yes the government is all about counting the widgets you produce, but public service is also the most rewarding experience in the legal field in my humble opinion. It is less about what they can do for you, and more about what you can do for them - the claimants, victims, families, people like us. I just had an OSHRC ALJ tell me that being an SSA ALJ was probably his finest hour. I hope it will be mine as well.

Sorry if that sounded preachy - Close friends have experienced a tradgedy this morning and I am feeling greatful for my existence.

[jibtrimmer]

Mar 16, 2013 9:43:28 GMT -5 @aljfaq said:

All of the comments above are accurate and clarify that the dilemma is in 2 parts: (1) what is better for a family: a big law job that means money will never be tight, or having the husband/father be there for dinnertime/bedtime/game time on a regular basis?; and (2) what job will make a father happier: a big law job that empowers him to work for big name clients on big cases and provide well for his family but is a constant race for billable hours, clients, and money or an ALJ job with potentially equal tediousness but that allows for a life outside of work without the stress of big law greed and fear?

Doesn't it seems your questions presage the answers? If not:
1) Of course it's better for a father to be there. Money will not substitute, and you can't get those moments back or make them up later. And making 118-165 K as an ALJ does not mean money will be tight, ever, unless you think you must have the materialistic trappings that come with 350K. Look around your firm: what portion of the partners are on their second or third marriage? How many of them have a really good relationship with their kids? How many kids have problems with conduct, drugs, etc?
2) Do you truly prefer stress with "greed and fear" in return for money, so that you can feel gratified being in thrall to corporate America? Dude, you do NOT have to make 350K to provide for your family. Trust an old guy on this one.
I believe you know the answers for yourself already, but like many you are afraid to walk away from the money, and maybe the people who stroke your ego for doing so great with your billing and brilliant work. You don't really need them any more than the money. One of my favorite books ever is called "Your Money or Your Life." Check it out.
Cheers.

[karaj]

You will be asked to do 2-3 hearings a day, relentlessly. If you take vacation or are sick, the Agency expects you to make up the work when you return. As a friend of mine said, this was the first factory job he has ever had. You have very little authority as an ALJ. You are not in a Court room, you are in a hearing room, often uncomfortably hot or cold. You have no authority over your assistants. There is no room in the job for creativity. Some people love it and some hate it."

I agree with Bartleby's quote above; and w/ Maggie's. This is not the glamor job that many think it is. Ninety percent of your "cases" will be back conditions and listening to people tell you they can't do ANYthing all day; most will tell you they lay in bed all day; and the hardest part is trying to decide if they're lying or not. As for being a job where you can be home to eat dinner w/ your family? If you really do this job right, it does mean reading an average of 3-500 pages per case, at least where I sit. Multiply that times 5 hearings, 3 days a week. It takes time to draft appropriate hypothetical Q's (we have VEs at every hearing in my office - and alot f ME's too) Most of us are here late or on weekends, and not getting paid for it. I was a Sr. attorney for SSA before I took this job and I took at least a $600/mo. pay cut now that I've lost overtime. I can't even use the credit hours I work - I'm too busy having to adjudicate 5-700 cases a year. And you get no more thanks if you do 700 than if you do 500. Please don't get me wrong, I am grateful I got the chance to do this job. But I sometimes wonder if I made a mistake.

[Taylor20]

To Hamster: I just wanted to say I like your outlook on the ALJ position and agree with much of what you said.

I was a state ALJ, now a fed trial attorney and applying to be a fed ALJ. An ALJ job is what the individual ALJ makes of it, as most white collar jobs are in my experience. If you look at it as tedious and unrewarding, it will be just that. OTOH, if you look at it as making a positive difference in people's lives and if you have a good work ethic; a positive professional attitude; care about what you do; and take pride in doing an excellent job, then you'll love being a judge. Bartleby says that if you're sick or take a vacation, the Agency expects you to make up the work. Every professional job I've had from age 22-51, expects you to complete the work even if you miss some time due to vacations or sickness. That's one of the expectations that makes white collar work different than factory work. If you're sick and miss a shift at the factory, someone else fills in on the line and makes the widgets that you would have made on your shift; you're not expected to make twice as many when you come back the next day. Whereas, a white collar worker is expected to effectively and efficiently manage a caseload and get the work done, regardless of whether they miss a day due to sickness or vacation. The job of an ALJ is no different in that respect from any other white collar job.

So, my response to the $350/year lawyer who began this post is: How much you like the ALJ position will be largely up to you. If you choose to leave the firm, then walk out the door with no regrets and with an attitude to make your ALJ career the best possible career for you....then do what it takes day in and day out to make that happen. A lot of what you learned from your mentors at the big firm can be applied in your ALJ career, so use that to your advantage. I wish you the best of luck in whatever route you choose.

[northwest]

Most of us are here late or on weekends, and not getting paid for it.

NOOOO! That is NOT what should happen. ALJs should NOT think it's appropriate to work without pay, and I've heard many say it's not lawful. It's very unfortunate that this happens. There seems to be, however, a growing recognition that if the 500-700 "expectation" is "reasonable and achievable" only with ALJs working without pay, the 500-700 is not, in fact, reasonable and achievable.

[factfinder]

I tend to agree with Northwest. 165300 is max pay for an ALJ - capped - many work for less at first. Donating time should not be necessary to do the job after the first year. Like others say, it is illegal to donate time.

If you have to work more than 40/wk after the first year to achieve a certain level of production, like 600 or whatever, then scale it back. They are only paying you for 40 hours per week - it is how leave is calculated, pay, etc. Don't listen to all that professionalism mantra as justifying more time. Professionalism also means you comply with the law - the anti-deficiency act. Plus, I wonder how many of these quota cows really put in more than 40 at the regional and ODAR level - have no idea. ALJs get no bonus or awards like the office staff do, so at some point it is immoral to expect ALJs to donate time, in addition to being a violation of the law.

That being said, when I hear a case, reading the briefs of the parties is not something that happens in a 40 hour week. But, I know, if I choose, that I have a career after being an ALJ and I want to learn more and do more it is a little understandable as compared to the average ODAR ALJ without significant complex litigation experience, IP experience (ITC), energy experience (FERC), labor experience (DOL), immigration experience (DOJ) or a history of publishing in peer evaluated publications.

I guess what annoys me is the expectation that ODAR ALJs should work as many hours as it takes to make a nonsense quota driven by the number of claims divided by the number of judges.

Now the real key - both of my attorney advisers left very large Wash DC law firm salaries to work with me and they like it. They are not looking back and I do right by them and they do right by me. One wants to be an ALJ and he would be superb - part of me wishes he does not succeed. But, I will be happy if he becomes an ODAR ALJ. Most of us in my present office were ODAR ALJs and we value our experience and respect those that do the job.

Would I leave a 350K job to be an ALJ? Do I have children? Do I love my children? Do I have a wife/husband? Do I love him/her? Do I want to have a life? Am I tired of sucking up to rain makers and clients who could give a darn about me? Have I been listening to what certain circuit chief judges have been saying about their perception of the ethics of my profession? H'm.

[bartleby]

About working for free being illegal, I have never been able to find a cite that says this. What it does say is that it is illegal for management to ask an employee to work for free. Management does not ask anyone to work for free. They set unrealistic goals and make it very easy to volunteer your time in an attempt to accomplish these goals. Every office I have worked in has Judges working more than 40 hours a week.

[mcb]

I echo the sentiments of of philliesfan, hamster, barkley, and others. I average 40 hours a week, never "donate" time to the Agency, am able to spend lots of time with my son and wife, have no midnight filing of briefs or putting in 60+ hours a week, as I did in my prior job, and get to make a difference in a lot of people's live, many in dire circumstances. Of course, I could find things to complain about, my new SCT isn't as efficient as my last one, why did the GS give that decision writer this difficult decision to write, emails about meeting goals, etc., but I choose not to let that bother me (plus I've got my own shortcomings as well).

I love this job, it's a lifetime appointment; dont have to worry anymore about job security or drumming up business; can put in 48 hours one week and take a day off the next week; report between 6:30 and 9:30 AM; work at home if I want to; schedule my hearings however I want to, etc.

I treat my coworkers, reps and claimants with respect, and generally, feel they do the same with me, and I feel I make a big difference in people's and their families lives.

I also sleep good at night. :-)