Relocation question

[funkyodar]

Caveat #1: I know it is probably way too early to spend valuable brain function on concerns about relocation packages and the like when its still much more unlikley that i get an offer than likley.  But, it's fun to dream and I truly do believe in gathering as much intel about a situation I may be in as possible, so bear with me. 

Caveat #2: I have read all I could find through the search feature on the board regarding my question and feel very informed now about the Relocation Package process.  Just have one nagging question.

Caveat #3: I know that only current federal employees are entitled to relocation benefits if hired as an ALJ.  I am such an employee.

Ok, with that out of the way, here is my scenario and question.  I am moving on to phase 3 and gave a wide open GAL (as in I would go anywhere).  My plan is, should I get an offer, to initially go there without my family.  I will maximize the temporary quarters afforded me then live as spartan a life there as possible while working the leave and credit hours to let me travel home as often as possible.

I intend to put myself on the transfer list as soon as eligible.  I would be attempting to return to my home city.  Shouyld i get that transfer, no relocation would be ncessary.  If I am unsuccessful after a year in my attempt to transfer, my family would then move to my new posting city and, I assume, this would be a straightforward and relataively normal use of the relocation benefits (ie home sale assistance, moving expenses, house hunting trip, the works).

This is where it gets into an area I havent seen discussed on the board.  Along with my home city (and knowing I can request transfer to up to 3 cities) I would like to put 2 additional offices on my transfer request that, if i am moved there, will put us closer to friends and family than we are even now.  Both of these cities would still require my family to move.  Neither of these cities, or my home city, is a highly sought after transfer spot and I wouldnt expect that to change.

So, the hypothetical.  Say I am sent to BFE.  I put my name on transfer list after 90 days but i dont get my home city, instead get one of the other two.  The transfer is within my self imposed year limit in waiting for a transfer and I take the transfer.  From what I have read, if you ask for a transfer for your own reasons, you are not entitled to relocation benefits.  However, if I was originally entitled to them and had not used them to move my family to the BFE office, and it is still within the time period for which I am entitled (2 years from reporting to new station?) will I be able to get the relo benefits for moving my family to the new city from my old city.  Or do I only get relo if the move is to the BFE city that i was assigned to at first? 

[ssaer]

I am nearly certain that you would not get relocation benefits for the second move (unless it's to a National Hearing Center, which constitutes an exception to the general rule).

[funkyodar]

Jul 23, 2013 7:25:52 GMT -5 ssaer said:

I am nearly certain that you would not get relocation benefits for the second move (unless it's to a National Hearing Center, which constitutes an exception to the general rule).

That is what i was afraid of.  Thanks ssaer.

[bartleby]

Number one, I think the relo package has changed and it is now good for 1 year and not 2 anymore. Number 2, I doubt that they would let you use the relo package from your home town to BFE to be used for your move later from your hometown to anywhere else. I have not seen anything in writing, but it is a gut feeling. My relo package was 500,000 to 600,000. I only used it in an attempt to find an apartment at my original location, but did much better on my own and with advice from my office mates. The relo game is big bucks and they contract this out so you will be hounded to death to utilize it until the time ends. I may be wrong about most of this, but it is what I think. I am sure someone else will have a solid answer for you.

[Deleted]

Funky, great question. I can speak for my current agency--DoD--we are governed by the Joint Travel Regulations and they only allow you to get relocation benefits for the house from which you commute to your permanent duty station. If I were in the position you describe in my current agency I would not be allowed to get relocation benefits from the city where the family is located but only from my permanent duty station.

I also saw something on the tranfer thread that caused me concern. The following paragraph from the collective bargaining agreement states (I beleive it is Section 2C):

"A Judge with less than twenty-four (24) months of continuous service with the Agency is not eligible for a voluntary reassignment unless a qualifying hardship exists and may not be placed on the request register until eligible."

This would probably not apply to you because you are already an SSA employee but I am not and it seems to say that I have to do 2 years at my first duty location before I can transfer (or get on the list).

[funkyodar]

Jul 23, 2013 7:32:14 GMT -5 @exafjag said:

Funky, great question. I can speak for my current agency--DoD--we are governed by the Joint Travel Regulations and they only allow you to get relocation benefits for the house from which you commute to your permanent duty station. If I were in the position you describe in my current agency I would not be allowed to get relocation benefits from the city where the family is located but only from my permanent duty station.

I also saw something on the tranfer thread that caused me concern. The following paragraph from the collective bargaining agreement states (I beleive it is Section 2C):

"A Judge with less than twenty-four (24) months of continuous service with the Agency is not eligible for a voluntary reassignment unless a qualifying hardship exists and may not be placed on the request register until eligible."

This would probably not apply to you because you are already an SSA employee but I am not and it seems to say that I have to do 2 years at my first duty location before I can transfer (or get on the list).

I read somewhere in the wee hours last night that that portion of the contract, ie the 2 year wait before being eligible to request a transfer, was supsended by agreement between the agency and the union.  Supposedly, it was replaced with the 90 days that we have heard so much about.

[bartleby]

90 days is correctomundo.

[funkyodar]

Jul 23, 2013 7:31:19 GMT -5 bartleby said:

Number one, I think the relo package has changed and it is now good for 1 year and not 2 anymore. Number 2, I doubt that they would let you use the relo package from your home town to BFE to be used for your move later from your hometown to anywhere else. I have not seen anything in writing, but it is a gut feeling. My relo package was 500,000 to 600,000. I only used it in an attempt to find an apartment at my original location, but did much better on my own and with advice from my office mates. The relo game is big bucks and they contract this out so you will be hounded to death to utilize it until the time ends. I may be wrong about most of this, but it is what I think. I am sure someone else will have a solid answer for you.

So, if i get a BFE offer that entitles me to relo, dont take the relo, get a transfer within a few months to another city i requested, I just lose out on relo benefits? I sort of thought that might be the case when I read teh specific info on requested transfers not having relo eligibility.  Had hoped that if I was entitled to x service during x period, it wouldnt matter how I used them.

That makes my thoughts on the transfer list more clear.  Options would be stay in the BFE office with relo.  Transfer only back to my home city as i wouldnt need relo then.  Or transfer to some other city we want, but do it without any relo assistance.  Definitely makes the picture clearer.  Thanks Bartebly, ssaer and exjag.

[Deleted]

Funky,

SSA appears to be covered by Chapter 302 of the Federal Travel Regs found at:

www.gsa.gov/portal/ext/public/site/FTR/file/FTR302TOC.html/category/21869/hostUri/portal

The following specific section references home sale expenses from old duty station to new duty station:


§302-11.1 What is the purpose of an allowance for expenses incurred in connection with residence transactions?
The purpose of an allowance for expenses incurred in connection with residence transaction is to reimburse you when you transfer from an old official station to a new official station for expenses that you incur due to:

(a) The sale of one residence at your old official station, and/or the purchase of a residence at your new official station; or

(b) The settlement expenses for a lease which has not expired on your residence or mobile home lot which is used as your permanent residence at your old official station.

www.gsa.gov/portal/ext/public/site/FTR/file/Chapter302p011.html/category/21869/#wp1123445

[funkyodar]

Jul 23, 2013 7:46:20 GMT -5 @exafjag said:

Funky,

SSA appears to be covered by Chapter 302 of the Federal Travel Regs found at:

www.gsa.gov/portal/ext/public/site/FTR/file/FTR302TOC.html/category/21869/hostUri/portal

The following specific section references home sale expenses from old duty station to new duty station:


§302-11.1 What is the purpose of an allowance for expenses incurred in connection with residence transactions?
The purpose of an allowance for expenses incurred in connection with residence transaction is to reimburse you when you transfer from an old official station to a new official station for expenses that you incur due to:

(a) The sale of one residence at your old official station, and/or the purchase of a residence at your new official station; or

(b) The settlement expenses for a lease which has not expired on your residence or mobile home lot which is used as your permanent residence at your old official station.

www.gsa.gov/portal/ext/public/site/FTR/file/Chapter302p011.html/category/21869/#wp1123445

Thanks Ex. 

[JudgeRatty]

Jul 23, 2013 7:39:46 GMT -5 funkyodar said:

Jul 23, 2013 7:31:19 GMT -5 bartleby said:

Number one, I think the relo package has changed and it is now good for 1 year and not 2 anymore. Number 2, I doubt that they would let you use the relo package from your home town to BFE to be used for your move later from your hometown to anywhere else. I have not seen anything in writing, but it is a gut feeling. My relo package was 500,000 to 600,000. I only used it in an attempt to find an apartment at my original location, but did much better on my own and with advice from my office mates. The relo game is big bucks and they contract this out so you will be hounded to death to utilize it until the time ends. I may be wrong about most of this, but it is what I think. I am sure someone else will have a solid answer for you.

So, if i get a BFE offer that entitles me to relo, dont take the relo, get a transfer within a few months to another city i requested, I just lose out on relo benefits? I sort of thought that might be the case when I read teh specific info on requested transfers not having relo eligibility.  Had hoped that if I was entitled to x service during x period, it wouldnt matter how I used them.

That makes my thoughts on the transfer list more clear.  Options would be stay in the BFE office with relo.  Transfer only back to my home city as i wouldnt need relo then.  Or transfer to some other city we want, but do it without any relo assistance.  Definitely makes the picture clearer.  Thanks Bartleby, ssaer and exjag.

So funky, could you put yourself on the transfer list after 90 days, use temporary housing, and if you see that a transfer is not going to happen... then use the relo package later, as long as it is within the year? That would give you some time between the 90 days and up to a year to decide to move the family? I am thinking there are time tables in place so that you have to make a decision on the relo package, especially the sale of the home etc fairly quickly. I think I saw where these time limits were like 30 days and 90 days or something like that. So that would be a decision that would have to be made prior to the ability to even get on the transfer list. So watch those limits! 

[funkyodar]

Jul 23, 2013 22:50:09 GMT -5 JudgeRatty said:

Jul 23, 2013 7:39:46 GMT -5 funkyodar said:

So, if i get a BFE offer that entitles me to relo, dont take the relo, get a transfer within a few months to another city i requested, I just lose out on relo benefits? I sort of thought that might be the case when I read teh specific info on requested transfers not having relo eligibility.  Had hoped that if I was entitled to x service during x period, it wouldnt matter how I used them.

That makes my thoughts on the transfer list more clear.  Options would be stay in the BFE office with relo.  Transfer only back to my home city as i wouldnt need relo then.  Or transfer to some other city we want, but do it without any relo assistance.  Definitely makes the picture clearer.  Thanks Bartleby, ssaer and exjag.

So funky, could you put yourself on the transfer list after 90 days, use temporary housing, and if you see that a transfer is not going to happen... then use the relo package later, as long as it is within the year? That would give you some time between the 90 days and up to a year to decide to move the family? I am thinking there are time tables in place so that you have to make a decision on the relo package, especially the sale of the home etc fairly quickly. I think I saw where these time limits were like 30 days and 90 days or something like that. So that would be a decision that would have to be made prior to the ability to even get on the transfer list. So watch those limits! 

Sratty,

I think i read where the 2 year (now apparently 1 year) window means you can choose to use relo benefits anytime during that period, if you were granted such benefits.  So I think you could use the 90 day temporary quarters deal, try for a transfer for a bit, then at month 10, 11 0r even 12 (for example) could still use the relo benefits to move to the original duty station if the transfer never came through.

As i understand it, the 30 day and 90 day periods you mention are choices you make regarding how long you want to list your home for private sale before the Relo company's (not the gov) obligation to buy it is triggered.  I read something about that on one of teh trheads.  You pick three appraisers and the sell price to the relo company is the average of those three appraisers.  If you sell it during the 30 or 90 day period you selected you get some kind of cash bonus.  Also, I think, unless I misunderstood what i read, that the selection of 30 days or 90 days impacts upon your overall take from the sale.  Choose the 30 day window and things move quicker, but the price paid by the relo company will be somehow computed based on the average of teh appraisals and , big AND, an estimation of what the house could be sold for in 30 days.  This, from what other posters said, is generally the foreclosure value of the home.

So, as i understand it, with the relo package, you get a house hunting trip on the gov's dime, temporary quarters, moving expenses, some help (though no clear idea what) with purchase of new home, help selling the old home, a cash bonus if the relo company doesnt have to buy it, and the choice of a quick sale after 30 days to the relo company for essentially what the house would go for if forclosed, or a more value based sale if you choose the 90 day period.  Folks that know more, am I wrong?

i just cant understand why, if i am entitled to these benefits to move 2000 miles from home to the duty statition they originally assigned me, have  one year to use those benefits, within that year get transferred 1750 miles closer to home, I cant use the benefits to move to the transfer station?  When it would be a much cheaper move?  Oh well, if the government made sense we wouldnt be in the mess we are in. 

[christina]

i did not look at any of the regs above but based on old wives tales or should I say old ALJ tales, I think u can get relo covered for "2nd move" if u did not use them on first move to BFE. but funky, on the bigger question, do u want to be separated from ur family while u wait to transfer? I'm sure you all are pondering this issue in funkyland already but it's huge. when the kids were little, i would not have been willing to live somewhere else. and even if u and the Mrs. decide it makes sense now, five years from now u may realize u truly regret this decision. better post on the parents page I realize but continue to take these issues into account if you whiddle down ur GAL.

[crab]

Sorry if it's been answered on another thread but why will they relocate you to an NHC? Is it an undesirability factor and that's a carrot?

Great Q btw Funky. I'm contemplating the same thing, particularly if the (!) offer came mid school year.

[funkyodar]

Jul 24, 2013 9:09:37 GMT -5 christina said:

i did not look at any of the regs above but based on old wives tales or should I say old ALJ tales, I think u can get relo covered for "2nd move" if u did not use them on first move to BFE. but funky, on the bigger question, do u want to be separated from ur family while u wait to transfer? I'm sure you all are pondering this issue in funkyland already but it's huge. when the kids were little, i would not have been willing to live somewhere else. and even if u and the Mrs. decide it makes sense now, five years from now u may realize u truly regret this decision. better post on the parents page I realize but continue to take these issues into account if you whiddle down ur GAL.

Great points Christina.  in effect it wouldnt be the first time we have done something similar.  In my first job out of law school i routinely travelled and would live in hotels and corporate short term apts for weeks at a time.  Thats one of the reasons I left despite being "promised" a partnerships "soon".  I saw the junior partners traveling as much or more than i did.

In private practice, I routinely worked six days a week, leaving home before my family woke and being lucky if i got home in time to read them bedtime stories.  One of teh reasons i came to ODAR.

Even at ODAR, when i was first hired as a AA, it was early in the school year and I moved on to my duty station (in the same state but too far to commute daily) and lived in an apt until school ended.  Went home on weekends and burned through leave, credit and comp time to maximize it. 

So we are kinda of used to the scenario.  Our plan would be to take whatever place is offered.  Me go 9with the idea to come home as often as possible) try to get transferred home (or maybe to another place we would like) asap.  But we would not try to live apart indefinitely, if after a year there is no transfer than the family will join me wherever I am. 

[lurker/dibs]

Funky, I'm in your same boat. We will not live apart indefinitely. We decided we will give it a year and if I have been unable to get a decent transfer, we will reevaluate then. And as I said before, I will be coming home as often as possible and when school is out, I'm sure the kids will be coming and staying with me. This position is important to me, so my husband makes it important to him. We will figure things out and take it all one day at a time. At least I always have my firm to fall back on if things truly don't work out.

[ssaer]

Jul 24, 2013 9:47:21 GMT -5 crab said:

Sorry if it's been answered on another thread but why will they relocate you to an NHC? Is it an undesirability factor and that's a carrot?

In the past, transferees to the National Hearing Centers got relocation benefits as well as a step increase in their pay. The most recent NHC vacancy announcement, however, expressly stated that relocation benefits would not be provided (although the step increase remains). I don't know if this is a temporary cost-saving expedient in the age of sequestration, or a substantive change attributable to the increasing popularity of transfers to the NHCs (which have a greater level of attorney and staff support and currently allow ALJs to jump over the transfer list should they desire to transfer somewhere else after coming to the NHC). I do know that NHC vacancy announcements have generated far more interest (and far more applications) than used to be the case and that it is now quite a competitive process.

[crab]

Thanks for the info, ssaer - very valuable info!

[southeastalj]

Just another huge caution in relying on how fast new judges hired since 2008 were able to transfer versus how long it might take for new hires now to transfer. Between 2008-2010 the agency opened 16 new hearing offices including in such desirable places as st Petersburg, Phoenix, atlanta and Nashville. This created a huge amount of movement of established judges in offices all over the country moving in mass to these new offices. It allowed a lot of new hire judges who were otherwise at the bottom of the transfer list to back fill those now empty offices fairly quickly. We aren't opening any new offices. The transfer list keeps growing with every new hire. Transfers now occur much more piecemeal. Unless you really want to go somewhere that chronically can't keep judges, you aren't transferring within a year of being hired. I know a lot of judges hired in 2011 who are just now being offered transfers or just getting near the top of the list for places they are trying to get to.

[Gaidin]

Jul 24, 2013 13:57:10 GMT -5 southeastalj said:

Just another huge caution in relying on how fast new judges hired since 2008 were able to transfer versus how long it might take for new hires now to transfer. Between 2008-2010 the agency opened 16 new hearing offices including in such desirable places as st Petersburg, Phoenix, atlanta and Nashville. This created a huge amount of movement of established judges in offices all over the country moving in mass to these new offices. It allowed a lot of new hire judges who were otherwise at the bottom of the transfer list to back fill those now empty offices fairly quickly. We aren't opening any new offices. The transfer list keeps growing with every new hire. Transfers now occur much more piecemeal. Unless you really want to go somewhere that chronically can't keep judges, you aren't transferring within a year of being hired. I know a lot of judges hired in 2011 who are just now being offered transfers or just getting near the top of the list for places they are trying to get to.

Thanks for this heads up.  While not what I was wanting to hear I also want to make sure that I go into this eyes wide open on the transfer angle.