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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2013 14:29:59 GMT -5
Sloppyjoe, I am in the same boat but am at step 1 right now--have a long way to go to get to step 10 and ALJ pay scale would more than cut that time down to half not to mention that I can get your high three faster.
This is probably the only benefit that I can see for an OGC member who is happy in their current job and location.
Downsides are that you will become a rookie again, the area of law that you will practice will be limited to applying regulations in conjunction with your analysis of medical records and testimony you will get from the claimant that they cannot do any work whatsoever because of their medical impairments. As you know the ALJ job is production based so you will have to make numbers every month to reach the number that most peers are making--essentially I do not think I will have the slow days that I see every few weeks in my current OGC gig. I previously worked as a writer at SSA and found that job to have too much isolation. You do interact with folks as an ALJ so I am hoping that this would address the issues I had with isolation. But I will have to make the decision down the road if I make it that far. If I do make the jump eyes wide open.
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Post by christina on Aug 3, 2013 9:05:15 GMT -5
I think u move up ALJ pay scale pretty fast so u would make more money within 2 to 3 years. But exjag's points are all well taken.
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Post by privateatty on Aug 3, 2013 13:03:09 GMT -5
Anyone have an opinion as to the desireability of leaving the latter job for the former? With the possibility of relocation as an ALJ and the seemingly paltry pay difference, any thoughts on the utility of applying? Do you get anxious at the annual review time? Do you chafe under a stupid/arrogant/mean or even horrible boss? Do you worry about being riffed? Do you like being on a team? Not that I was ever a GS 15 or even an 11, these are the questions I would ask. |
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Post by ssaer on Aug 3, 2013 22:02:58 GMT -5
Anyone have an opinion as to the desireability of leaving the latter job for the former? With the possibility of relocation as an ALJ and the seemingly paltry pay difference, any thoughts on the utility of applying? I have done both, and very much prefer the ALJ job. As an ALJ, I have far more independence and autonomy, am treated more as a professional and with respect and, most importantly, I feel I am making a greater positive difference in people's lives and have the authority and tools to help needy and deserving individuals to a much greater degree than in my old OGC job. I would not trade this job for any other. |
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Post by nonamouse on Aug 6, 2013 5:34:54 GMT -5
Anyone have an opinion as to the desireability of leaving the latter job for the former? With the possibility of relocation as an ALJ and the seemingly paltry pay difference, any thoughts on the utility of applying? I have done both, and very much prefer the ALJ job. As an ALJ, I have far more independence and autonomy, am treated more as a professional and with respect and, most importantly, I feel I am making a greater positive difference in people's lives and have the authority and tools to help needy and deserving individuals to a much greater degree than in my old OGC job. I would not trade this job for any other. The respect and job satisfaction as an ALJ can vary widely depending on your agency, or within ODAR your region and hearing office. I'm in an office that went from award winning, pleasant and respectful to flying off the rails after a dramatic change in management teams. Replace competent professionals with b*ttkissers who don't know how to properly manage people and you suddenly have experienced ALJs and staff trying to transfer, stay on travel dockets and/or retire in shocking numbers. I went from knowing every person in a fairly large office to not knowing about 1/3 of the staff. Given the current atmosphere at ODAR, I know for a fact that I would be much happier back as a litigator or even as a writer in a hearing office where I could work with my door closed and have very minimal interaction with anyone. I am sick of poorly-prepared attorneys who can be as nasty and disrespectful as they like to us with no fear of real consequences. However, we can get frivolous complaints of bias or discrimination filed routinely as an effort at judge shopping based on the latest tips at some conference for claimant's reps. We must pay for liability insurance and the union membership to have a fighting chance if we get sued or if the agency decides to throw us under the bus. Conduct in private lives has been used more frequently in recent years to remove ALJs even if no laws were broken. There are many obvious efforts at turning the ALJs at ODAR into little more than high producing cogs with no allowance for the intelligence and individuality that produced the highly skilled attorneys they hired as independent adjudicators. IMO, the overall comparison of GS-15 and happy versus a few thousand extra per year with the added stress and drama if you end up in a bad office is no contest. I can hardly believe it, but to preserve my health and naturally sunny disposition I have been thinking about finding other options to take me into my golden years. If I had an assurance of decent healthcare, I would downsize my lifestyle and run screaming for the exit sooner than later. |
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Post by decadealj on Aug 6, 2013 8:35:11 GMT -5
Well all you ALJ wannabes- read and heed nanamouse. He/she has hit the nail on the head- your quality of life as an ALJ is directly proportional to the RO and office managemnt culture where you will work. If you are comfortable in your current position such as an OGC GS-15, and get an offer, do some research on what office you are accepting. Do not count on being able to transfer out- plan on the worst because even the best offices can change to hell-holes overnight as documented by nonamouse above.
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Post by moopigsdad on Aug 6, 2013 8:41:08 GMT -5
Things change. Life happens. Adjust to changes or move on to elsewhere. What is perfect today can be awful tomorrow and vice versa. Of course, do your due diligence, but because the office seems great now doesn't mean it will be great three months from now.
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Post by funkyodar on Aug 6, 2013 9:40:56 GMT -5
I have no doubt the alj job has drastically changed over the last decade. Hell, I've seen remarkable changes in just the last 4 years. As an odar insider, I've written numerous posts advising my fellow applicants that don't have first hand odar experience about the realities of the job. I would hate to see anyone base such a major life decision on false dreams of being deferred to as "your honor," living a 9 to 5 stress free existence and essentially semi retiring on the job.
This post, though, is from the opposite perspective. Nonamouse is one of several sitting aljs that have posted their disdain for how the job has changed and wish to "run for the door." Again, I agree the job has drastically changed for the worse, but maybe those that have been in it for a while don't realize those doors they dream of running through have either been welded shut or now open into their own room of $hit.
Daydream of a peaceful underling position at odar? Trust me, AAs and SAAs have also seen the drastic changes you have seen. Production expectations and micromanagement have reached insane levels, staffing shortages add pressure, we are now held accountable for remands even if we gave the alj exactly what they asked for, and those horrible office managers that bug you actually have authority over us.
Maybe you dream of returning to private practice. With the nationwide trend toward tort reform, plaintiffs firms aren't hiring or filing suits like they once did, which leads to slow downs and lay offs with defense firms. Damage caps mean recoveries are lower and makes striking out on even one case a year deadly to small firms. Defendants have less on the line and more protections than ever so settling is harder. This, along with forced mediations, independent medical exams and the like skyrocket the expenses. From the defense side, business has become so important to acquire and keep that firms undercut eachother and fear they may lose a big client if they lose even a single motion.
Hang a shingle? Get ready to compete with every downsized big law refugee and the never ending tide of newly minted graduates that had no other choice and are willing to do cases on the cheap to build business. You'll fight for every divorce and dui out there and have to do them for fees around half of what you could get even 10 years ago. Meanwhile case costs, staff, phones, liability insurance and every other overhead expense has gone up all while your ability to increase income has gone down.
Maybe you would use your alj experience and start a claimant rep biz. Can you compete with the big national firms that advertise incessantly? How bout the hundred local guys that 10 years ago wouldn't stoop to doing rep work with its paltry fee caps and now fight for every one they can get? Can you tote your personal expenses and overhead for the 2 years it will likely take between landing your first claimant and seeing the fee from it?
No, my firends. There is no golden escape hatches anymore save retirement. If you're close to that congrats you are there at a good time and may get out before the job gets much worse or retirement benefits lose their luster. If you have the gig but aren't close to retirement, it may suck now and get worse but the degradation is no worse than what's happening in the legal profession as a whole.
If you are trying for the gig, like me, don't romanticize the robe. Go in knowing its a job, with good points and bad. Know the bad is growing while the good is shrinking, but that is the case in any other field us attorneys could engage in at present.
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Post by goodoleboy47 on Aug 7, 2013 9:43:29 GMT -5
I have no doubt the alj job has drastically changed over the last decade. Hell, I've seen remarkable changes in just the last 4 years. As an odar insider, I've written numerous posts advising my fellow applicants that don't have first hand odar experience about the realities of the job. I would hate to see anyone base such a major life decision on false dreams of being deferred to as "your honor," living a 9 to 5 stress free existence and essentially semi retiring on the job. This post, though, is from the opposite perspective. Nonamouse is one of several sitting aljs that have posted their disdain for how the job has changed and wish to "run for the door." Again, I agree the job has drastically changed for the worse, but maybe those that have been in it for a while don't realize those doors they dream of running through have either been welded shut or now open into their own room of $hit. Daydream of a peaceful underling position at odar? Trust me, AAs and SAAs have also seen the drastic changes you have seen. Production expectations and micromanagement have reached insane levels, staffing shortages add pressure, we are now held accountable for remands even if we gave the alj exactly what they asked for, and those horrible office managers that bug you actually have authority over us. Maybe you dream of returning to private practice. With the nationwide trend toward tort reform, plaintiffs firms aren't hiring or filing suits like they once did, which leads to slow downs and lay offs with defense firms. Damage caps mean recoveries are lower and makes striking out on even one case a year deadly to small firms. Defendants have less on the line and more protections than ever so settling is harder. This, along with forced mediations, independent medical exams and the like skyrocket the expenses. From the defense side, business has become so important to acquire and keep that firms undercut eachother and fear they may lose a big client if they lose even a single motion. Hang a shingle? Get ready to compete with every downsized big law refugee and the never ending tide of newly minted graduates that had no other choice and are willing to do cases on the cheap to build business. You'll fight for every divorce and dui out there and have to do them for fees around half of what you could get even 10 years ago. Meanwhile case costs, staff, phones, liability insurance and every other overhead expense has gone up all while your ability to increase income has gone down. Maybe you would use your alj experience and start a claimant rep biz. Can you compete with the big national firms that advertise incessantly? How bout the hundred local guys that 10 years ago wouldn't stoop to doing rep work with its paltry fee caps and now fight for every one they can get? Can you tote your personal expenses and overhead for the 2 years it will likely take between landing your first claimant and seeing the fee from it? No, my firends. There is no golden escape hatches anymore save retirement. If you're close to that congrats you are there at a good time and may get out before the job gets much worse or retirement benefits lose their luster. If you have the gig but aren't close to retirement, it may suck now and get worse but the degradation is no worse than what's happening in the legal profession as a whole. If you are trying for the gig, like me, don't romanticize the robe. Go in knowing its a job, with good points and bad. Know the bad is growing while the good is shrinking, but that is the case in any other field us attorneys could engage in at present. |
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Post by goodoleboy47 on Aug 7, 2013 11:32:22 GMT -5
Most all of us are fully aware of the legal position opportunities outside of ODAR. We were well connected in the legal community before ODAR and I,and probably most other ALJs, are still well connected. The original post was about having a bird in the hand and the possibility of getting an ALJ position in the other hand. Don't think all the problems we ALJs are currently experiencing would be as evident to newbies. But change is always going to happen and adjustments are always necessary. SSA and ODAR will be in a constant change mode because we have different administrators every 6 years. All of them have personal agendas to build careers and want to make a splash that will be recognized later. The situation for ALJs during the last administration has reached the point where we are losing the ability to be independent decision makers. We will soon not have control of our dockets. We are told how we must write our instructions to our writers, we have disposition quotas that are far above what we can accomplish with a full record review, and we receive constant reminders of our purported lack of proper docket management. In short, it's like being back in junior high school. Personally, having a practice after ODAR will not be a problem if I want to continue practicing law. My point for prospective ALJs at SSA is to be forewarned that you will no longer be treated like you are professionals. You will be treated like 7th graders in good offices and 3rd graders in bad offices. You will be led by administrators who have no idea what is involved in what you do and you will be subject to constant experimental change that makes no sense. Good luck to all and I sincerely hope your experience with ODAR is a good one if your decision is to give it a try.
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Post by funkyodar on Aug 7, 2013 12:06:04 GMT -5
I certainly meant no offense and greatly appreciate those sitting aljs that post the good and bad aspects of the job. Forewarned is forearmed and all. Further, I believe your description of the hassles and tribulations of the job is completely accurate. I don't want to see someone make a major life decision that affects their family and future without knowing all the bad side or being blinded by a fantasy. Still, I also don't want to see what would be an exceptional candidate discouraged from going forward because of all the talk of how bad the alj job is getting. My post was an attempt to show that the the same degradation of the job aljs are experiencing is happening legal profession wide. Unmeetable quotas correlate pretty closely to high billables and rainmaking. Crappy management that doesn't understand your job? Sounds like the perfect description of senior partners that demand results like they had 30 years ago without regard for tort reform, increased competition and the like. Trying to squeeze more out of less people and resources is the new norm. I won't even get started on the loss of respect for the profession in an era when people do their wills on legalzoom and are inundated with legal commercials that look like used car ads. Again, no offense was intended. But no matter how bad the job has gotten and how often a sitting alj mentions a desire to bolt for the door I note that I haven't seen any mass exodus back to private practice. In fact, I don't know a single alj that has quit the gig for any reason other than retiring. Should the original poster quit a gs15 gig for alj? Depends on the person. If you are happy, no. The money isn't that much better and the alj job isn't what it once was and its likely to get worse. But then so is your gs15 job. That's why work is a four letter word. One final time, no offense to you goodoleboy or nonamouse or any other sitting judge. Im sure you have great connections in the private sector and honed skills that would make you successful despite all the negative factors. In fact, I would love to see as many as possible leave the alj corp. More chances for me then  |
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Post by bartleby on Aug 7, 2013 12:39:30 GMT -5
Funky, I personally know an ALJ that quit with less than two years in as the job wasn't what he expected. He had been with the District Court working on SSA cases prior to coming to ODAR and had a good background in SSA law and procedure, or at least he thought so. He did not feel that he could give up his personal integrity to meet the SSA goals by doing a less than complete job. I spoke to him yesterday and he said that the longer he was away from here, the more dysfunctional he realized it was. He said his only regret was that he hadn't walked out sooner. Most of this is probably moot as very few will even be offered the position. On the other hand a small town or suburban law office can be very enjoyable and there is always someone looking for a good ethical lawyer..
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Post by 71stretch on Aug 7, 2013 12:55:55 GMT -5
As previously discussed elsewhere, two of the answers are going to be very high score, and the right GAL. Those are the only way to even make a cert, especially when those openings are often filled one at a time. Makes for a very small cert. |
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Post by moopigsdad on Aug 7, 2013 13:05:41 GMT -5
As previously discussed elsewhere, two of the answers are going to be very high score, and the right GAL. Those are the only way to even make a cert, especially when those openings are often filled one at a time. Makes for a very small cert. I don't think SSA will be hiring one position at a time next year or the following year, but there may be a lot of multiple openings in quite a few offices the next time SSA goes to hire. |
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Post by funkyodar on Aug 7, 2013 13:11:22 GMT -5
Funky, I personally know an ALJ that quit with less than two years in as the job wasn't what he expected. He had been with the District Court working on SSA cases prior to coming to ODAR and had a good background in SSA law and procedure, or at least he thought so. He did not feel that he could give up his personal integrity to meet the SSA goals by doing a less than complete job. I spoke to him yesterday and he said that the longer he was away from here, the more dysfunctional he realized it was. He said his only regret was that he hadn't walked out sooner. Most of this is probably moot as very few will even be offered the position. On the other hand a small town or suburban law office can be very enjoyable and there is always someone looking for a good ethical lawyer.. Well, that's one. lol You're right bart. A small town or suburb based private office would be nice. I quit a big firm gig within months of being made a partner to open just such a practice. Loved it. Loved being my own boss, having my hands in all aspects of a case. Loved it so much I hated to leave even when I realized I was working the same or more hours as I did at the biglaw firm, making less money, taking the cases I wanted had morphed into any with money, couldn't afford medical insurance, paid my employees more than I made and just had more of the same to look forward to. Some could make it, I couldn't. May find alj the same. But my last 4 years at odar have been great. I traded the chances at big hits for steady pay and great benefits. Sure, the work isn't intellectually stimulating and I get no thrills of litigation. Also had to get used to be treated as a grade schooler and managed by people with only a high school diploma. But for me, suffering those indignities is a small price for the sure job, steady pay, great benefits and never working a weekend. Its a cheap price for a soul, but I've been satisfied with the value. |
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Post by chinook on Aug 7, 2013 13:17:22 GMT -5
To answer aljfaq's question, there are three factors to getting hired directly to a non-SSA position:
1) High score
2) High Score
3) Very High Score
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Post by 71stretch on Aug 7, 2013 13:47:43 GMT -5
As previously discussed elsewhere, two of the answers are going to be very high score, and the right GAL. Those are the only way to even make a cert, especially when those openings are often filled one at a time. Makes for a very small cert. I don't think SSA will be hiring one position at a time next year or the following year, but there may be a lot of multiple openings in quite a few offices the next time SSA goes to hire. I was answering aljfaq's question about other agencies hiring direct off the register, not SSA. I omitted quoting his post in doing so. Sorry for the confusion. My friend chinook knows of what he speaks, as well. |
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Post by workdrone on Aug 7, 2013 13:51:36 GMT -5
I sometimes think an ALJ poster's activity on this forum is inversely proportional to his/her job satisfaction. ;-)
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Post by moopigsdad on Aug 7, 2013 14:10:21 GMT -5
To answer aljfaq's question, there are three factors to getting hired directly to a non-SSA position: 1) High score 2) High Score 3) Very High Score Well I think I can pull off 2 out of 3 of these What are the chances that a non-vet can score high enough to outscore all vets with their bonus points added in? Is that a virtual impossibility given the historical tight grouping of scores? I would agree the odds are very high against you pulling it off, but there is always a mathematical possibility. |
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Post by funkyodar on Aug 7, 2013 14:28:12 GMT -5
Good news is I actually want odar. So you hopin for another agencywon't have to worry when I throw up the highest score. That's right, bringin the funk and talkin the smack  |
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