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Post by sealaw90 on Oct 17, 2013 10:07:40 GMT -5
epic, thanks for finding this gem of a post. Extremely informative and enlightening!
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Post by moopigsdad on Oct 17, 2013 10:59:54 GMT -5
Epic what a great find of an old post. I think the process was laid out succinctly and honestly. It's still SSA's game and they will play anyway they want to whether we like it or not. It's really not a competitive process once the NORs come out, but a selective process by SSA and other agencies on who they want to work for them. The agencies can play a little loose with the rules and acquire they people they want for jobs. So, either you convince an agency to like and hire you or you don't. Insider (slightly greater ability to get liked) and outsider doesn't make that much of a difference. However, skills in the agency's area of expertise is more helpful to the agency than those with no skills or past practice in the agency's area of expertise. Not that someone with no social security background, skills or experience cannot get hired by SSA/ODAR, but the odds are slightly against you being hired.
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Post by epic0ego on Oct 17, 2013 11:02:40 GMT -5
you are entirely welcome sealaw. I wish there was more time to mine for the gems but there is alot of good stuff on the entire thread, especially from Valkyrie and others. when I see recurring questions and areas of interest, I try to look back and see what's already been posted. When I hear things like "its mostly luck" or "its all a mystery," I know there is truth to it, but I wonder if there are ways to help unwind the mystery just a little. Privateatty above said that he was apparently "blacklisted" at one point but was able to overcome this by being on a small cert and by somehow being "helped by this board." I hope we can get some expansion on this latter point. What is also interesting when you read the earlier thread, is that some members strongly felt that the "inside connection" with ODAR was a tremendous advantage in earlier registers and that the WD was a piece of cake. I don't know if the current group still feels that way. And then there is the discussion that scores in the 50s and 60s were all you needed if they "really want you," and notwithstanding veterans being ahead of you. Funkyodar's tremendous hypothetical above really helped me to see how this can all be finessed.
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Post by Gaidin on Oct 17, 2013 13:10:32 GMT -5
Epic what a great find of an old post. I think the process was laid out succinctly and honestly. It's still SSA's game and they will play anyway they want to whether we like it or not. It's really not a competitive process once the NORs come out, but a selective process by SSA and other agencies on who they want to work for them. The agencies can play a little loose with the rules and acquire they people they want for jobs. So, either you convince an agency to like and hire you or you don't. Insider (slightly greater ability to get liked) and outsider doesn't make that much of a difference. However, skills in the agency's area of expertise is more helpful to the agency than those with no skills or past practice in the agency's area of expertise. Not that someone with no social security background, skills or experience cannot get hired by SSA/ODAR, but the odds are slightly against you being hired. The emphasized sentence above probably spells it out as succinctly as it can be. OPM is all about creating a competitive register (And bully for us for making it this far). SSA and the other agency are all about getting judges that fit their perceived needs. They will use the rules to achieve that purpose. The more I read the more I think that insider status will only help you as much as you daily impress the people who will act as known and unknown references. As an outsider I know who they will call and so am protected from a few people in the past who may have an axe to grind. Funky on the other hand has to go to work every day and be sweetness and light while simultaneously busting his butt to be a top performer. I am sure he does that and will get great references known and unknown. I am just glad I don't have to be as "on my game" every day.
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Post by epic0ego on Oct 17, 2013 13:22:24 GMT -5
I agree with the part about funky being sweetness and light. But my question is: is it fair to reach past all the veterans and narrow GAL folks just to get to him? You're right, Gaidin. In the end, SSA will get who they want and I suppose there really isn't a better way. By the way, does SSA OGC handle the cases brought by disgruntled ALJ candidates, or does DOJ step in to defend?
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Post by moopigsdad on Oct 17, 2013 13:44:48 GMT -5
I agree with the part about funky being sweetness and light. But my question is: is it fair to reach past all the veterans and narrow GAL folks just to get to him? You're right, Gaidin. In the end, SSA will get who they want and I suppose there really isn't a better way. By the way, does SSA OGC handle the cases brought by disgruntled ALJ candidates, or does DOJ step in to defend? Is it fair for Agencies to pass over others with higher scores to reach "insiders"? Probably not, but (not being an insider myself) I do understand why SSA/ODAR or other agencies attempt to hire those they know well. It's about knowing the person (strengths and weaknesses) you are hiring, instead of hiring an unknown. They feel much more comfortable with the "devil" they know, than with the "devil" they don't know (just being facetious in choice of words). In some ways, it works that way almost anywhere you apply for a job. The employer is always going to feel slightly more comfortable with someone they know versus someone they don't know. As they say, "it's not what you know, but who you know" that makes the difference in hiring. Please don't let things like these keep you up at night. It isn't worth losing sleep over things you can't control. As stated in many posts and threads on this Board there is no guarantee of a job for anyone in the process. Yes, I will be disappointed if I am not hired, but I understand there is no guarantee in this process.
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Post by epic0ego on Oct 17, 2013 13:48:38 GMT -5
I am one of those hard-headed narrow GAL folks that ODAR is seeking to crush. Knowing the risk, I gladly took it on, and repeatedly so, because crapland just doesn't interest me. Now Pretty Decent City and Not Quite Crapland could be another story . . .
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Post by Ace Midnight on Oct 17, 2013 13:52:09 GMT -5
I am one of those hard-headed narrow GAL folks that ODAR is seeking to crush. Knowing the risk, I gladly took it on, and repeatedly so, because crapland just doesn't interest me. Now Pretty Decent City and Not Quite Crapland could be another story . . . As Crapland born and raised, and Crapland I am ultimately destined, I hope your attitude is both prevalent AND you get what you want. Ultimately, this is my briar patch. I work in a great office, in my home town, and would love to just get appointed here and skip the middle man. In one particular model of the universe, Los Angeles, Chicago, San Francisco, Miami, Atlanta, Philadelphia - are crapland, or perhaps more fairly, "Great places to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there."
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Post by lurker/dibs on Oct 17, 2013 13:56:55 GMT -5
Ditto, ace! Y'all can have the big cities with the crime, high cost of living, and all that "city stuff"! I just hope I get a job and I hope those who are currently on transfer lists to get out of "crapland" get their ideal locations so I can get where I want to be. I have a couple of larger cities on my list, and would stay for a short period, but I don't want to be there permanently.
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Post by epic0ego on Oct 17, 2013 14:07:48 GMT -5
I am one of those hard-headed narrow GAL folks that ODAR is seeking to crush. Knowing the risk, I gladly took it on, and repeatedly so, because crapland just doesn't interest me. Now Pretty Decent City and Not Quite Crapland could be another story . . . As Crapland born and raised, and Crapland I am ultimately destined, I hope your attitude is both prevalent AND you get what you want. Ultimately, this is my briar patch. I work in a great office, in my home town, and would love to just get appointed here and skip the middle man. In one particular model of the universe, Los Angeles, Chicago, San Francisco, Miami, Atlanta, Philadelphia - are crapland, or perhaps more fairly, "Great places to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there." Acemidnight, I agree with you entirely and hope I don't come off like a geographic chauvinist. My people are from the tidewater region of the mid-atlantic and I was appalled when I spent my first summer in New York which was way, way pre-Guiliani. I'm a military brat who always preferred living in the 'burbs, but I have to admit that the access to the arts has grown on me. To each his own and my best wishes to you in God's country. I visit the country often but prefer to have the best of both worlds to the extent possible. I have also lived in Europe and Asia and prefer being right here in the good ol' U.S. of A. where I can still get the cultural mix of people without giving up American culture. As I get older, I have also developed an affinity for nearby research hospitals and int'l airports. I realize you can get this in smaller cities too, I'm just not really familiar with them. In the end, people do what they have become used to, I guess. My best to you, sir.
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Post by sandiferhands (old) on Oct 17, 2013 15:59:45 GMT -5
In follow up to the "they'll get who they want" and "they'll get an insider if they know him and like his work" line of discussion above:
Is it considered genius/overreaching/poor form/illegal for an outsider to contact the HOCALJ at a desired location and schedule a visit to introduce oneself and ask him to do what he can to help you land at his office? If you are a HOCALJ and reading this, what would you think of such a contact?
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Post by hopefalj on Oct 17, 2013 16:19:10 GMT -5
In follow up to the "they'll get who they want" and "they'll get an insider if they know him and like his work" line of discussion above: Is it considered genius/overreaching/poor form/illegal for an outsider to contact the HOCALJ at a desired location and schedule a visit to introduce oneself and ask him to do what he can to help you land at his office? If you are a HOCALJ and reading this, what would you think of such a contact? It honestly would make absolutely no difference as a HOCALJ has no input on which judges go where or come to their office. The "they" in this scenario are in Falls Church, not the local hearing offices.
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Post by epic0ego on Oct 17, 2013 16:21:29 GMT -5
In follow up to the "they'll get who they want" and "they'll get an insider if they know him and like his work" line of discussion above: Is it considered genius/overreaching/poor form/illegal for an outsider to contact the HOCALJ at a desired location and schedule a visit to introduce oneself and ask him to do what he can to help you land at his office? If you are a HOCALJ and reading this, what would you think of such a contact? It honestly would make absolutely no difference as a HOCALJ has no input on which judges go where or come to their office. The "they" in this scenario are in Falls Church, not the local hearing offices. would you advise a trip to Falls Church?
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Post by Orly on Oct 17, 2013 16:24:07 GMT -5
Is it considered genius/overreaching/poor form/illegal for an outsider to contact the HOCALJ at a desired location and schedule a visit to introduce oneself and ask him to do what he can to help you land at his office? If you are a HOCALJ and reading this, what would you think of such a contact? I'd go with overreach/poor form for the following reasons: 1. No HOCALJ in his/her right mind would agree to such a request from a stranger. Between holding hearings and putting out admin fires, they don't have much time to spare, and they are unlikely to waste it on some random person they don't care about. 2. Not all HOCALJs are viewed positively by the higher ups. There are certain ones whose recommendation could actually be toxic to your odds. In sum, good attempt but it's probably going to backfire.
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Post by 71stretch on Oct 17, 2013 16:25:25 GMT -5
It honestly would make absolutely no difference as a HOCALJ has no input on which judges go where or come to their office. The "they" in this scenario are in Falls Church, not the local hearing offices. would you advise a trip to Falls Church? To do what, see the sights? If you get on a cert, you will get an SSA-paid trip to Falls Church for your interview. Impressing your interview panel as being the kind of person SSA/ODAR wants to have as an ALJ is the best possible thing you can do in Falls Church to help your chances.
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Post by Orly on Oct 17, 2013 16:28:01 GMT -5
Impressing your interview panel as being the kind of person SSA/ODAR wants to have as an ALJ is the best possible thing you can do in Falls Church to help your chances. Exactly.
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Post by epic0ego on Oct 17, 2013 17:00:42 GMT -5
would you advise a trip to Falls Church? To do what, see the sights? If you get on a cert, you will get an SSA-paid trip to Falls Church for your interview. Impressing your interview panel as being the kind of person SSA/ODAR wants to have as an ALJ is the best possible thing you can do in Falls Church to help your chances. try to stay with us here, observer. the question of the floor is whether one should attempt to affect the process of whether ODAR "likes" or "wants" you by meeting with them. My answer is yes, its a good idea before the process begins. But once the process starts, i.e., Phase I, it becomes problematic. You certainly wouldn't want to be perceived as attempting to skirt any ethical considerations by improperly "influencing" the process. Do you have any SPECIFIC advice that might be useful to those listening?
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Post by funkyodar on Oct 17, 2013 17:09:58 GMT -5
Epic what a great find of an old post. I think the process was laid out succinctly and honestly. It's still SSA's game and they will play anyway they want to whether we like it or not. It's really not a competitive process once the NORs come out, but a selective process by SSA and other agencies on who they want to work for them. The agencies can play a little loose with the rules and acquire they people they want for jobs. So, either you convince an agency to like and hire you or you don't. Insider (slightly greater ability to get liked) and outsider doesn't make that much of a difference. However, skills in the agency's area of expertise is more helpful to the agency than those with no skills or past practice in the agency's area of expertise. Not that someone with no social security background, skills or experience cannot get hired by SSA/ODAR, but the odds are slightly against you being hired. The emphasized sentence above probably spells it out as succinctly as it can be. OPM is all about creating a competitive register (And bully for us for making it this far). SSA and the other agency are all about getting judges that fit their perceived needs. They will use the rules to achieve that purpose. The more I read the more I think that insider status will only help you as much as you daily impress the people who will act as known and unknown references. As an outsider I know who they will call and so am protected from a few people in the past who may have an axe to grind. Funky on the other hand has to go to work every day and be sweetness and light while simultaneously busting his butt to be a top performer. I am sure he does that and will get great references known and unknown. I am just glad I don't have to be as "on my game" every day. If "sweetness and light" are the key to being a preferred insider, I'm already s c r e w e d.
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Post by 71stretch on Oct 17, 2013 17:42:49 GMT -5
To do what, see the sights? If you get on a cert, you will get an SSA-paid trip to Falls Church for your interview. Impressing your interview panel as being the kind of person SSA/ODAR wants to have as an ALJ is the best possible thing you can do in Falls Church to help your chances. try to stay with us here, observer. the question of the floor is whether one should attempt to affect the process of whether ODAR "likes" or "wants" you by meeting with them. My answer is yes, its a good idea before the process begins. But once the process starts, i.e., Phase I, it becomes problematic. You certainly wouldn't want to be perceived as attempting to skirt any ethical considerations by improperly "influencing" the process. Do you have any SPECIFIC advice that might be useful to those listening? I am "with you", and I gave specific advice, just as I've tried to do for years here. Can we dispense with the personal comments, please? I don't think meeting with FC "before the process begins" will work, either. The SSA/ODAR interview is perhaps the very MOST important part of the process once you are on the register and on a cert, followed by selection and prepping of references. I don't believe there are any circumstances where someone in the Falls Church ODAR admin office will meet with some random ALJ candidate, now or later, so that candidate can chat about the job and put in good words for himself or herself. As previously stated, the local offices have no input into who is hired for their offices. I agree with those who said that would also not be helpful. Within "the process", using references who may have more influence than average with one or more involved in the selections when they speak well of a candidate, can be very helpful. And, of course, a bad reference can kill your chances, so choosing carefully is key. I'm sure there have been times when someone has called and "put in a good word" for someone in a case in which they knew who to call. I don't know how common that is, but when the parties are acquainted, it may well be helpful.
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Post by epic0ego on Oct 17, 2013 18:12:21 GMT -5
observer, you have my apology. I shall henceforth dispense from comments of a personal nature. we don't know each other. your latest comments are very specific and very apropos. I would say it a little differently, however. if you know someone or know someone who knows someone, a phone call could be very helpful. I don't directly know anyone over at Falls Church, but I attended an event last year where some of the ALJs there were in attendance. My friend (a retired ALJ), introduced me. I made a point of getting some resume highlights into the conversation and talking about some interests that we had in common. I don't think it was inappropriate although others might feel differently. If you know someone who knows someone it could be helpful. At this late stage of the process, however, I would be reticent. I probably would not do a totally cold call.
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