the NOR Countdown

[hopefalj]

Oct 17, 2013 18:12:21 GMT -5 epic0ego said:

observer, you have my apology. I shall henceforth dispense from comments of a personal nature. we don't know each other. your latest comments are very specific and very apropos. I would say it a little differently, however. if you know someone or know someone who knows someone, a phone call could be very helpful. I don't directly know anyone over at Falls Church, but I attended an event last year where some of the ALJs there were in attendance. My friend (a retired ALJ), introduced me. I made a point of getting some resume highlights into the conversation and talking about some interests that we had in common. I don't think it was inappropriate although others might feel differently. If you know someone who knows someone it could be helpful. At this late stage of the process, however, I would be reticent. I probably would not do a totally cold call.

Insider status or knowing the right people or whatever you want to call it only matters if you make a cert. If you do make a cert and feel like you know an important person, you can always list that person/those people as a reference. I don't think there's anything ethically wrong with contacting that individual/those individuals because they can't do anything at this stage anyway. They're not going to bump your score. They're not going to get you on a certificate if an agency ever finds the funds to request one. However, as others have noted, I'm not sure how someone you don't really know is going react to being contacted out of the blue.

That said, this is all your decision. If you think it will help, I honestly don't see anything wrong with contacting people you have met before that are insiders. I'm curious to know what sort of ethical concerns you think might be at issue. It's possible I'm overlooking something.

[epic0ego]

Nothing wrong with talking to people that you know and trust, obviously. But I would also not want to be perceived as being too pushy or a favor-seeker. Cold calls can certainly be perceived this way, and I think management is sensitive to accusations that applicants can be selected based on nepotism or personal connections, rather than pure qualifications. Yes, it's up to each individual to make the call. But perception, judgment, and timing are all things I would consider before putting in the call.

[redryder]

I was an insider and thought I knew what an ALJ does. I have to say my preconceptions were totally off regarding many aspects of this work. I knew the judge held hearings, but never really thought about what actually goes on in that hearing room. It's like the difference between knowing what a deposition is and actually taking one.

If you want to help yourself in preparing for an agency interview, you may want to ask to meet with an ALJ you know and have a frank discussion about the job--its pros and cons, the skills you will need the most, and how you will have to adjust your life to accommodate the job. Reflect on these and honestly assess your ability satisfy these needs.

When interviewing people for jobs in ODAR, it always amazed me how little some people knew about the job they were seeking. Example: the office is looking for a writer and the candidate goes on and on about how he/she just loves working with and helping people, and tells about the desire to work with our claimants and help them. Great. But we are looking for someone with good writing skills who can get along with coworkers and judges. You will have no contact with the claimants.

[sandiferhands (old)]

Thanks for the input, folks. You have reinforced what I already suspected.

It's probably just me being obtuse, but there seems to be a very unfocused area in this collage that is the actual matching of a candidate from the cert who has interviewed well, with a particular job.

I get that SSA does the interviews. My understanding is that several SSA managers interview the candidates on the cert, sort out who they want based on the interviews, then retire to a smoke filled room with their list of acceptables and the GAL for each and begin the process of matching.

Does that mean that a HOCALJ who has  requested a candidate to fill a position gets no say in who is chosen? Some higher-ups at SSA interview the candidates, and the call the HOCALJ and say "We've found your man/lady--it's this guy. Good luck!"? If so, it seems extraordinarily insensitive to the need for matching the right person with the right office from a compatibility standpoint.

I would think a HOCALJ would love to get a call from someone who says: "Hi. I'm John Doe, and I am on the cert and was interviewed and think it went well. I'd really like to work at your HO, and would like to set up a meeting with you to see if you might feel the same so you can take whatever steps you feel appropriate to see if that  can happen."

I dunno, but if I was a HOCALJ I'd love a chance to meet beforehand a person who may be assigned to work closely with me for several years before I was actually forced to have him occupy an office just down the hall. I'd love to hear from someone with a genuine interest in my office, so I could pursue that person rather than get someone else who will put himself on the transfer list on day 91. The assignment of a new ALJ to an office seems to me to be one of the most important things that would happen in the life of a HOCALJ, and I'd like to be "in the loop" about it.

What am I missing here?

[71stretch]

You are missing only the fact that ODAR just doesn't do that. Of course, it would make some sense to do it, but ODAR is not focused on any particular office, but on getting the people they want into the system. Getting input from a local office on this person or that just isn't part of their thinking. The decision on whether to even fill a slot at a particular office seemingly often gets made at the very last minute.

It's like a giant peg board where the pegs get put in open slots in some sort of order, and then over time the pegs switch places, drop off (and this includes the HOCALJs) and new ones periodically get added.

I don't think we will ever see this aspect of it changing, though the possible benefits are there to see.

[papresqr]

I see two problems here.  First, you would be taking a chance that the HOCALJ finds it inappropriate and, even if (s)he has no say in hiring, you could be starting off on bad footing if you did get hired at that office. 

Second, and the main issue I see, is that there may be other people on your cert who may want that office just as badly and would be just as good a "fit" for the office, or maybe even better, but would not feel it's appropriate to contact the HOCALJ to try to get around the process. 

[hopefalj]

Based on what I've read on other threads, there's a possibility that a HOCALJ may not even know who the judge is until they report for duty. I don't think that usually happens (we've been emailed the names of new judges in the past well before their start dates), but you can find prior threads where new hires are encouraged to contact their HOCALJ prior to reporting.

I don't doubt that a HOCALJ would love to have input on who is selected for their office, but it doesn't happen to my knowledge. If SSA deems you good enough, you should be good enough for that HOCALJ, I guess. Besides, you never specifically interview for an office, so I'm not sure how such a decision could practically be made by a HOCALJ.

[epic0ego]

Oct 18, 2013 11:49:03 GMT -5 sandiferhands (old) said:

Thanks for the input, folks. You have reinforced what I already suspected.

It's probably just me being obtuse, but there seems to be a very unfocused area in this collage that is the actual matching of a candidate from the cert who has interviewed well, with a particular job.

I get that SSA does the interviews. My understanding is that several SSA managers interview the candidates on the cert, sort out who they want based on the interviews, then retire to a smoke filled room with their list of acceptables and the GAL for each and begin the process of matching.

Does that mean that a HOCALJ who has  requested a candidate to fill a position gets no say in who is chosen? Some higher-ups at SSA interview the candidates, and the call the HOCALJ and say "We've found your man/lady--it's this guy. Good luck!"? If so, it seems extraordinarily insensitive to the need for matching the right person with the right office from a compatibility standpoint.

I would think a HOCALJ would love to get a call from someone who says: "Hi. I'm John Doe, and I am on the cert and was interviewed and think it went well. I'd really like to work at your HO, and would like to set up a meeting with you to see if you might feel the same so you can take whatever steps you feel appropriate to see if that  can happen."

I dunno, but if I was a HOCALJ I'd love a chance to meet beforehand a person who may be assigned to work closely with me for several years before I was actually forced to have him occupy an office just down the hall. I'd love to hear from someone with a genuine interest in my office, so I could pursue that person rather than get someone else who will put himself on the transfer list on day 91. The assignment of a new ALJ to an office seems to me to be one of the most important things that would happen in the life of a HOCALJ, and I'd like to be "in the loop" about it.

What am I missing here?

Sandiferhands, thank you for your pointed question and insightful observations.  You sound like someone with private practice experience because that's exactly how its done in the real world.  Gov't agencies tend not to operate that way and the OPM/ODAR process is a world unto itself.  That is why this subject keeps coming up on the board as each new group tries to make heads or tails of the process.  The bottom line I keep getting from everyone is that there purports to be a rhyme and reason to the process that is largely complied with by the powers that be.  However, there have been "exceptions" that sometimes can't be explained and no one will ever know because the process is not totally public.  If they "want" you or "like" you, they will likely get you.  And the process of getting to be wanted or liked can come from myriad arenas, including the ODAR interview or just paper qualifications  -- but not necessarily high test scores, or even vet status.  The bottom line is they seem to pick whom they want and isn't that true anywhere, irrespective of the particular hiring process employed?

Getting back to your question about talking to the local HOCALJ, my view (and I emphasize my view only) is that some HOCALJs may have personal relationships with the folks in the smoke-filled rooms, and you know how that goes.  Of course they talk to each other!  There are people on this board who know the influential ALJs at ODAR and if you could impress them in a sidebar meeting . . . well, that might well prove helpful.  I wouldn't do it, however, because I wouldn't want to compromise or be perceived (rightly or wrongly) as having compromised the hiring process in any way.  The gov't can be quirky.  The appearance of impropriety rules are sometimes especially focused on judges, and perhaps judicial hiring officials as well.  I'm not saying that a cold call at this stage of the process is necessarily improper.  But for me, the relatively few points that might be achieved by calling for such a meeting would be outweighed by the potential down-side risks.  Again, to each his own, and my best wishes to you.                                       

 

[zebra51]

Oct 18, 2013 11:49:03 GMT -5 sandiferhands (old) said:

Thanks for the input, folks. You have reinforced what I already suspected.

It's probably just me being obtuse, but there seems to be a very unfocused area in this collage that is the actual matching of a candidate from the cert who has interviewed well, with a particular job.

I get that SSA does the interviews. My understanding is that several SSA managers interview the candidates on the cert, sort out who they want based on the interviews, then retire to a smoke filled room with their list of acceptables and the GAL for each and begin the process of matching.

I get the same understanding from what I have read on this forum, that SSA orders the people on the cert list to their liking and GAL. But the announcement says of OPM that: "Names are referred in descending rank order, based on the duty location of the position(s) to be filled and the geographical preference of candidates. It is the responsibility of the hiring agency to make selections from the list of candidates referred for employment consideration from among the highest three available names, taking into consideration veterans' preference and other civil service rules."  It appears OPM orders and generates the list.

Can someone clear up if it is SSA or OPM that orders the list of those referred for consideration?

[epic0ego]

good question zebra. I think that when OPM gives ODAR "the list" FOR EACH GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION, there are many people who will be at the top of several, if not scores of lists. Therein lies the rub. Only ODAR will know who they are going to put where, so the "highest three available names" will only be known to ODAR for any particular city.  In other words, if someone is at the top of 5 lists, she can be effectively eliminated from the 4 lists where ODAR does not intend to place her.  I am not suggesting nefarious motives here, I'm just saying there clearly is room for discretion, horse-trading, or however you choose to look at it.

[funkyodar]

Ssa tells opm it wants to hire a new alj for x, y and z cities.

Opm then forwards the top 3 scoring candidates on the register with one or more of those cities in their gal as a cert.

Ssa then decides which of the grouping of 3 for each city they want to hire subject to vet pref. Scores get you on a cert, but appear irrelevant in your contest with the other people on the cert for the same locale as you.

If ssa doesn't like any of the three for any particular city, they just don't fill the position from that cert.

That's what I think, anyway.

Here's a question tho. Lets say candidate A is among the top 3 for one city but not in the top3 for another city on the cert and in their gal. Suppose then that ssa really likes candidate A but for whatever reason has to chose candidate B for the city on the cert for which A was in the top 3. But, assume they don't like any of the three candidates for a second city. This city is in candidate A's gal. Since candidate A is liked and has this second city in his gal, could ssa hire him for this second city even if he wasn't in the top 3 for it under the premise that he made the overall cert?

[epic0ego]

I don't see how ODAR could skip over the top 3 in the second city to get to candidate A without "placing" one or more of those top 3 candidates elsewhere. But you would know better than I.

[71stretch]

Oct 18, 2013 12:39:07 GMT -5 zebra51 said:

Oct 18, 2013 11:49:03 GMT -5 sandiferhands (old) said:

Thanks for the input, folks. You have reinforced what I already suspected.

It's probably just me being obtuse, but there seems to be a very unfocused area in this collage that is the actual matching of a candidate from the cert who has interviewed well, with a particular job.

I get that SSA does the interviews. My understanding is that several SSA managers interview the candidates on the cert, sort out who they want based on the interviews, then retire to a smoke filled room with their list of acceptables and the GAL for each and begin the process of matching.

I get the same understanding from what I have read on this forum, that SSA orders the people on the cert list to their liking and GAL. But the announcement says of OPM that: "Names are referred in descending rank order, based on the duty location of the position(s) to be filled and the geographical preference of candidates. It is the responsibility of the hiring agency to make selections from the list of candidates referred for employment consideration from among the highest three available names, taking into consideration veterans' preference and other civil service rules."  It appears OPM orders and generates the list.

Can someone clear up if it is SSA or OPM that orders the list of those referred for consideration?

SSA orders a cert from OPM, based on the number of positions they might theoretically look at filling positions in, and provides the cities to OPM. OPM makes up the list, with usually somewhat more than 3 x the total number of cities/positions SSA gives them. SSA doesn't say, be sure X person is on the list.We know that SSA can tell OPM, here's a list of people we've considered three times. Eliminate them as you make up the list, so you don't send us their names. (What they will do with respect to the new register on that issue, no one knows for sure)

If I'm understanding funky's hypo correctly, I think that if they "strike" the first three, (and they are not entitled to vet preference) if candidate A then becomes one of the top three, they can get to him. That's why we often hear here that scores don't always matter that much once you are actually on the cert. Things get shuffled around, people get struck or hired for some other city to take them off the list for that city, and there's a way for SSA to get who they want, somewhere.

[funkyodar]

I really doubt its possible as well. it would essentially mean odar would really be getting way more than just 3 to consider for each position. opm would be providing the top 3 scorers for each city, but if odar is allowed to look at any candiadte on the cert for any city in their gal....

Just trying to hazzard a few guesses of how odar can do the horsetrading and musical chairs they obviously do. I've been assuming a "cert" is really multiple certs (one for each city odar expects to fill a slot containing the top 3 scorers for that particular city). if that's the case, odar is essentially bound to hiring one of those 3 or not filling the position. vet pref further restricts their options.

However, if odar were able to request a cert for 10 cities and they get 30 names and it isn't restricted to just looking at top 3 scorers for each city...they could essentially choose the 4th, 5th or whatever scorer for any city on the cert request and within a cert candidates gal. subject still to vet pref for any particular city within a vet cert candidates gal. this would give them a lot more leeway to move people around, 3 strike people they don't like, etc.

[71stretch]

They already get "way more than three" when they order a cert based on 50 cities and only fill 30 slots. That gives them a lot more people to shuffle around and put them in places where they can get to them where they might be blocked by vet preferences from placing them in some other slot. It's very different than a cert where some agency is filling one slot in one city. And, it can get complicated. Sometimes days/weeks after the initial notices re: a cert go out, they have to add people, and send out more notices, to be sure they have enough people on the cert for all the theoretical vacancies.

I'd like to know what the list(s) look like, too, as that would help visualize what happens. But, it's always been said here that if they want you, they will find a way to get to you if they can. And it seems, at least as often as not, they do.

[epic0ego]

so there is some rhyme or reason to the process after all. yes, you must take one of the high 3, but the high 3 for a given city may not at all resemble the high 3 list sent over by OPM, by the time ODAR makes its legitimate selections for other cities. 10-point vets with a 90+ score and wide-open GALs will likely make the high 3 list for every cert that ODAR pulls. But since they can only occupy one spot each, being number 5, 6, or 7 on a given list is not so bad really. which begs the question, does anyone have any idea how many vets could be expected to make the register? if there are 300 vets on the register with wide open GALs wouldn't that pretty much cover the anticipated first round of hiring?

[71stretch]

Oct 18, 2013 13:51:12 GMT -5 epic0ego said:

so there is some rhyme or reason to the process after all. yes, you must take one of the high 3, but the high 3 for a given city may not at all resemble the high 3 list sent over by OPM, by the time ODAR makes its legitimate selections for other cities. 10-point vets with a 90+ score and wide-open GALs will likely make the high 3 list for every cert that ODAR pulls. But since they can only occupy one spot each, being number 5, 6, or 7 on a given list is not so bad really. which begs the question, does anyone have any idea how many vets could be expected to make the register? if there are 300 vets on the register with wide open GALs wouldn't that pretty much cover the anticipated first round of hiring?

You are assuming they are all high scorers, which may well not be the case, even for those with 10 pt preference. Scores over 90 are rare birds, with or without preference. I don't think this new testing will change that. As far as how many vets will make the register, hard to pick a number on that one.

[funkyodar]

Its becoming clearer. Thanks observer, epic and all.

So, it is still correct to say the more cities in a persons gal the more actual slots they are competing for and, thus, the better chance to make a cert and land a job.

Further, you make a cert by being in the top 3 scorers for at least one city on the cert request that's within your gal. But you aren't just in competition for the city on the cert that you have on your gal and are among the top 3 scorers for, but are in fact possibly in contention for all cities on the cert which you have in your gal?

That certainly clarifies how odar can move the puzzle pieces around (easily 3 strike an unliked candidate, take a significantly lower scorerfor any particular city and force vets into vet-on-vet contention for particular cities to eliminate unwanted vets without running afoul of vet pref) and accomplish their goals.

Answers a huge question on how they found such flexibility if they are restricted to only considering the top 3 scorers for each slot.

[hopefalj]

This discussion is why I think SSA's hiring practice once interviews are conducted is fascinating (I'm sure others have far less flattering adjectives for it). It seems like a big logic game. If I'm off-base with any of the following, please shout me down.

If SSA wants to hire a high scoring vet, that's easy to do. If SSA wants to hire a high-scoring non-vet, it's a little more complex as that person cannot be selected over a vet that is in the top three for a locale with that person. A lower scoring vet is might be even more difficult as they need to be in the top three of a location to be selected. A lower scoring non-vet is the hardest as you have to dodge the first three categories to be selected. I fully acknowledge that this is a simplified interpretation, but I believe these to be the general principles.

So let's say SSA wants to be able to reach folks in the fourth category. The first thing they'd have to do is hire and three strike high scoring vets to get over the first hurdle. I assume it's impossible to avoid hiring a good amount of vets on the first cert simply because they're needed to eliminate other high scoring vets, non-vet high scorers, and possibly mid-scoring vets. SSA then has to gradually winnow the pool by pitting those groups against each other until they get a desired individual into the top three scorers in one of offices of that individual's GAL, and they have to do so with no vet competition. And I believe they do all of this while trying to maximize the number of desired people or at least setting up future certs to make it easier to pursue desired people at a later date. I imagine every subsequent cert becomes easier to manage as the previously three struck candidates are left off of the subsequent certs.

I'm sure SSA hires plenty of vets and high scorers, but there are a lot of folks that must be collateral damage in an effort to reach those further down the list.

[Gaidin]

There is also the issue that when multiple openings in one office occur they get the top 6, 9, etc.... not just the top 3. So if they can skim the top 3 off to other locations where they are top 3 then ODAR can look at 4, 5, & 6.