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Post by privateatty on Dec 28, 2013 7:40:34 GMT -5
Soon you will get your NOR. You folks will poll your scores and fret about whether or not your score will be sufficient for you to be picked up by SSA (reportedly before the end of FY13). In the past, on a scale of 1-100, scores of 40ish were sufficient (although they had to be a favorite son or daughter given the machinations needed to get to them--but I digress. IOW, as I have repeated before (and as Pixie said in 2007), if SSA wants you, scores won't matter.
You will also, of course, go to your SSA Interview-the make or break hour. MUCH will be posted here about that and this Board's back pages are rife with postings. My most memorable memory is the absolute fear that my deodorant wouldn't hold up--that and probably the lines that sank me. That of course is classified.
What you can do now is think and re-think your references. I know of a candidate who was back-doored by a Judge and never saw it coming. He/she would probably be a Judge now but for that little mistake that in hindsight one (perhaps) couldn't see coming. If you can, take these people to lunch. Get second opinions (in absolute confidence) about whether or not they would say the wrong thing. Examples of posssible wrong things might be a "passionate advocate", "independent thinker" "works well alone and not in collaboration". This is the last part of this whole process that you really control.
It is also true that if you are an employee you must be stuck with a supervisor--but there are posters out there and in these pages who have learned how to deal with this--I was lucky and didn't so defer to those who have navigated this tricky shoal. Choose wisely--the Judgeship depends on it.
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Post by Highlander on Dec 28, 2013 8:34:18 GMT -5
Can references be updated/changed after the NOR's are released?
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Post by 71stretch on Dec 28, 2013 9:02:41 GMT -5
Can references be updated/changed after the NOR's are released? The references PA is referring to are not anything you have already submitted. When you are placed on an SSA cert, you will get a questionnaire to fill out and return. It used to ask for every job you'd had since you passed the bar, more recently it goes back only ten years. You list a job reference for each of those jobs, you have the option to ask them not to contact your current supervisor. Then, you are asked for three judicial references, three "adversarial" references (if you haven't been litigating and don't have adversaries, you can list other lawyers who can speak well of you in answering the standard questions) and three general references familiar with your work in the legal community. (you can use other supervisors from earlier jobs, for instance). All nine are not always contacted, but choose them as if they will be. There are old threads here about the questions that have always been asked in the past. I would not be surprised if those questions, like a lot of other things, change this time around.
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Post by privateatty on Dec 28, 2013 9:29:46 GMT -5
Thank you observer53. As always, you bring clarity.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2013 9:38:01 GMT -5
Thanks for the succinct summary, observer53. Your post answered a basic question I had (as someone new to the process). If my NOR merits, I'll search the old threads for additional info.
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References
Dec 28, 2013 10:43:09 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by funkyodar on Dec 28, 2013 10:43:09 GMT -5
Agreed, thanks very much private and observer. Great info.
For the past 5 years I've been odar and have no prob finding supervisors and judges. Prior to that tho I wasin private practice and ran my own shop. That will give me plenty of adversarial references, but I had no supervisor back then. Whatis the common way people have handled that situation?
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Post by bartleby on Dec 28, 2013 11:47:34 GMT -5
Funky, I have known AA's and SA's that listed all nine references that were Judges with the Agency. Judges seem to feel that if you can write an outstanding decision you will probably be a good judge. Also, local attorneys that you may have assisted with Dire Need or OTR's will usually be helpful. I had an AA use me for a reference when I was a SA. I laughed when they called and asked me what I thought of her. I said, "She can walk on water and looks damn good doing it." The guy laughed and asked if I thought she could do the job. I said, "Certainly, she types 90 words a minute while talking to you. Further, back when the goal was 15-20 decisions a month she was doing 30 and they were excellent decisions." She was offered a position and is currently doing an outstanding job. I also know an AA that used a Judge for a referral and he torpedoed her. Pick your references carefully, use friends if you have them. This is not the time to use someone for their title if you don't own them.. JMHO.
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Post by cougarfan on Dec 28, 2013 13:08:37 GMT -5
Funky, I ran my own shop from the time I graduated law school until I applied for this job. I believe I listed additional judges in place of a supervisor.
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Post by dudeabides on Jan 25, 2014 8:14:14 GMT -5
Friends:
I am a total newbie to this Board, so I hope you will be patient with my question here. I have been reading this Board for some months and it has been very informative. 90% of my questions have been asked and answered by the many knowledgeable and thoughtful participants in this process. These include observer53, bartleby, funkyodar and privateattorney. Thank you.
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Post by privateatty on Jan 25, 2014 8:52:22 GMT -5
Friends:
I am a total newbie to this Board, so I hope you will be patient with my question here. I have been reading this Board for some months and it has been very informative. 90% of my questions have been asked and answered by the many knowledgeable and thoughtful participants in this process. These include observer53, bartleby, funkyodar and privateattorney. Thank you.
Now that the NORs are nigh, I realize I need to figure out how to participate on the Board and perhaps get some help on the 10% of my questions that do not seem to have been addressed. (I am trying to learn the Search function, but was not able to find the answer to the following question, so here goes.)
Assume you are currently an Administrative Judge subject to the impartiality strictures similar to 28 USC 455 ("Any judge . . . shall disqualify himself in any proceeding in which his impartiality might reasonably be questioned.") Assume you make the "register" and are asked to provide 9 references, per Observer53's excellent info.
Q: Would it violate the "appearance of impartiality" standard for a sitting AJ to ask an attorney, who has appeared before him/her (and may appear again) to serve as a reference?
IMHO the answer is that it would be improper to use such an attorney as a reference. (This answer, however, severely limits the pool of potential references.)
Surely this issue has arisen many times before on this Board, but I have not been able to discover the relevant thread.
I have studied the Annotated version of the ABA Model Code of Judicial Conduct and do not seem to see this issue addressed. This may be because the answer is so obvious.
Surely this issue has arisen many times before on this Board, but I have not been able to find the relevant discussion.
I would welcome any help you can provide! Thanks
Great question, Judge. I agree that I would not ask any atty appearing before me. I would get a reference from old friends and colleagues (even if it was only one) who know you and your character. There is no requirement that these folks be lawyers: you could ask a Church Deacon or a long time bridge partner.
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Post by JudgeRatty on Jan 25, 2014 9:35:21 GMT -5
Friends:
I am a total newbie to this Board, so I hope you will be patient with my question here. I have been reading this Board for some months and it has been very informative. 90% of my questions have been asked and answered by the many knowledgeable and thoughtful participants in this process. These include observer53, bartleby, funkyodar and privateattorney. Thank you.
Now that the NORs are nigh, I realize I need to figure out how to participate on the Board and perhaps get some help on the 10% of my questions that do not seem to have been addressed. (I am trying to learn the Search function, but was not able to find the answer to the following question, so here goes.)
Assume you are currently an Administrative Judge subject to the impartiality strictures similar to 28 USC 455 ("Any judge . . . shall disqualify himself in any proceeding in which his impartiality might reasonably be questioned.") Assume you make the "register" and are asked to provide 9 references, per Observer53's excellent info.
Q: Would it violate the "appearance of impartiality" standard for a sitting AJ to ask an attorney, who has appeared before him/her (and may appear again) to serve as a reference?
IMHO the answer is that it would be improper to use such an attorney as a reference. (This answer, however, severely limits the pool of potential references.)
Surely this issue has arisen many times before on this Board, but I have not been able to discover the relevant thread.
I have studied the Annotated version of the ABA Model Code of Judicial Conduct and do not seem to see this issue addressed. This may be because the answer is so obvious.
Surely this issue has arisen many times before on this Board, but I have not been able to find the relevant discussion.
I would welcome any help you can provide! Thanks
Great question, Judge. I agree that I would not ask any atty appearing before me. I would get a reference from old friends and colleagues (even if it was only one) who know you and your character. There is no requirement that these folks be lawyers: you could ask a Church Deacon or a long time bridge partner. I would stick to the ole Code of Conduct Rule that if it is anything that would give even an "appearance of impropriety" .... I would avoid it. I think the fact you posed the question means you may have some doubts about it being ok. The fact is YOU may be ok with it and feel you can be impartial (as well as the reference), but what would OTHERS feel/see/suggest if they knew. Would other attorneys who appear before you feel that this reference "may" get a little deference? I think that is the point and the "appearance of impropriety" here. It isn't that you would "actually" be doing something improper, but the mere "appearance" of doing so. With that said, you may never find an exact fact pattern in the regs, policy, etc to meet this issue. There are so many circumstances that would come about that would give the "appearance" hence the broad rule to avoid those things that give that appearance.
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References
Jan 25, 2014 15:07:31 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by mch135 on Jan 25, 2014 15:07:31 GMT -5
I have been lurking for awhile and have had all of my questions answered by the great posts by everyone. However I have one question that I haven't been able to find an answer to - what do we do if we don't have 3 judicial references? The nature of my practice is such that I don't appear in front of any one judge with any regularity. If I make a cert I intend on putting down the judge for whom I clerked, but that still leaves me 2 short. Any thoughts? Thanks!
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Post by privateatty on Jan 28, 2014 9:38:56 GMT -5
I have been lurking for awhile and have had all of my questions answered by the great posts by everyone. However I have one question that I haven't been able to find an answer to - what do we do if we don't have 3 judicial references? The nature of my practice is such that I don't appear in front of any one judge with any regularity. If I make a cert I intend on putting down the judge for whom I clerked, but that still leaves me 2 short. Any thoughts? Thanks! If you have any inkling that the Judge may have remembered you, you can ask. Most Judges will stretch a memory because he/she has been in your position--to some degree. Absent that, explain yourself and substitute with someone of authority or an attorney who mentored you or was in a supervisory role.
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Post by 71stretch on Jan 28, 2014 10:34:55 GMT -5
I have been lurking for awhile and have had all of my questions answered by the great posts by everyone. However I have one question that I haven't been able to find an answer to - what do we do if we don't have 3 judicial references? The nature of my practice is such that I don't appear in front of any one judge with any regularity. If I make a cert I intend on putting down the judge for whom I clerked, but that still leaves me 2 short. Any thoughts? Thanks! If you have any inkling that the Judge may have remembered you, you can ask. Most Judges will stretch a memory because he/she has been in your position--to some degree. Absent that, explain yourself and substitute with someone of authority or an attorney who mentored you or was in a supervisory role. Agree with this. It's not unlike the situation with many of us who have been ALJ's for a long time and don't have adversary references. We were instructed to provide the names of others who could speak to our work ethic, reputation in the legal community, etc. I would think you could do the same here, if you don't have enough judges to use. Also remember that your judicial references can include Administrative Law Judges.
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Post by orchid on Mar 16, 2014 18:31:13 GMT -5
I have been lurking for awhile and have had all of my questions answered by the great posts by everyone. However I have one question that I haven't been able to find an answer to - what do we do if we don't have 3 judicial references? The nature of my practice is such that I don't appear in front of any one judge with any regularity. If I make a cert I intend on putting down the judge for whom I clerked, but that still leaves me 2 short. Any thoughts? Thanks! If you have any inkling that the Judge may have remembered you, you can ask. Most Judges will stretch a memory because he/she has been in your position--to some degree. Absent that, explain yourself and substitute with someone of authority or an attorney who mentored you or was in a supervisory role. In thinking about references, I feel very nervous asking for references from judges I appear in front of and will continue to appear in front of if I don't get the '"call". Any thoughts about how to handle?
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Post by Gram Pop on Mar 16, 2014 19:54:27 GMT -5
I worked in the same office for 10 years with an attorney who has since been elected to the State court bench. While she knows much about my work ethic and skills, I have never appeared before her in her capacity as a judge due to our prior association. Can I use her as a judicial reference?
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Post by 71stretch on Mar 16, 2014 21:10:22 GMT -5
I worked in the same office for 10 years with an attorney who has since been elected to the State court bench. While she knows much about my work ethic and skills, I have never appeared before her in her capacity as a judge due to our prior association. Can I use her as a judicial reference? Yes. One of my juidicial references is the present Chief Justice of my state Supreme Court. We've known one another since our first day of law school decades ago. I've never appeared in front of that judge, either, although that judge was on a panel, as a lower appellate court judge, reviewing one of my administrative decisions.
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Post by jessejames on Mar 16, 2014 21:27:30 GMT -5
My understanding of judicial ethics is that judges definitely are more limited in their ability to act as references. Some exceptions exist such as for a former or current employee.
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Post by Friant on Mar 17, 2014 9:17:38 GMT -5
All:
This is my first post but I've been a lurker since OPM first made the announcement 1+ year ago. This forum is a wonderful treasure trove of information and I thank all of those who have provided reliable information, educated guesses, informed opinions, and good doses of humor throughout (and that civility amongst posters is generally high). It's nice to hear from a diversity of folks: veteran ALJs, newly-minted ALJs, multi-time candidates, and newbies like myself. Funky, observer, privateatty, are just 3 of the many great posters that come to my mind.
Congrats to all who have made it to this point. I'm a first-time, "outsider" (non-SSA) candidate, who quite frankly, can't believe I've made it this far. I'm now turning my attention to possibly getting the call for an interview and preparing my personal history form. Based on the ALJ Candidate Personal History form from 2011 that was graciously posted elsewhere on this board, there is a potential to identify A LOT of references: 9 judges/opposing counsel/personal (3 each) plus up to 8 former employers/supervisors.
Based on my situation, I could come up with 17 different persons. Do folks recommend maximizing the number of different references or having fewer that can serve multiple roles? For example, a professional reference who can also serve as a professional reference and an employer reference? I understand the risks of more references = more opportunity to be tubed (inadvertently or otherwise) but do you know if SSA looks at a candidate who uses a reference(s) to double-up (or more) negatively?
Thanks again, General Friant, Comte de l'Empire
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Post by privateatty on Mar 17, 2014 10:15:36 GMT -5
All: This is my first post but I've been a lurker since OPM first made the announcement 1+ year ago. This forum is a wonderful treasure trove of information and I thank all of those who have provided reliable information, educated guesses, informed opinions, and good doses of humor throughout (and that civility amongst posters is generally high). It's nice to hear from a diversity of folks: veteran ALJs, newly-minted ALJs, multi-time candidates, and newbies like myself. Funky, observer, privateatty, are just 3 of the many great posters that come to my mind. Congrats to all who have made it to this point. I'm a first-time, "outsider" (non-SSA) candidate, who quite frankly, can't believe I've made it this far. I'm now turning my attention to possibly getting the call for an interview and preparing my personal history form. Based on the ALJ Candidate Personal History form from 2011 that was graciously posted elsewhere on this board, there is a potential to identify A LOT of references: 9 judges/opposing counsel/personal (3 each) plus up to 8 former employers/supervisors. Based on my situation, I could come up with 17 different persons. Do folks recommend maximizing the number of different references or having fewer that can serve multiple roles? For example, a professional reference who can also serve as a professional reference and an employer reference? I understand the risks of more references = more opportunity to be tubed (inadvertently or otherwise) but do you know if SSA looks at a candidate who uses a reference(s) to double-up (or more) negatively? Thanks again, General Friant, Comte de l'Empire My references were limited to those whom I KNEW would give me a good one. Also, I did not do the "multiple role" reference as I thought they were asking for individuals in each role.
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