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Post by 71stretch on Mar 17, 2014 10:51:08 GMT -5
All: This is my first post but I've been a lurker since OPM first made the announcement 1+ year ago. This forum is a wonderful treasure trove of information and I thank all of those who have provided reliable information, educated guesses, informed opinions, and good doses of humor throughout (and that civility amongst posters is generally high). It's nice to hear from a diversity of folks: veteran ALJs, newly-minted ALJs, multi-time candidates, and newbies like myself. Funky, observer, privateatty, are just 3 of the many great posters that come to my mind. Congrats to all who have made it to this point. I'm a first-time, "outsider" (non-SSA) candidate, who quite frankly, can't believe I've made it this far. I'm now turning my attention to possibly getting the call for an interview and preparing my personal history form. Based on the ALJ Candidate Personal History form from 2011 that was graciously posted elsewhere on this board, there is a potential to identify A LOT of references: 9 judges/opposing counsel/personal (3 each) plus up to 8 former employers/supervisors. Based on my situation, I could come up with 17 different persons. Do folks recommend maximizing the number of different references or having fewer that can serve multiple roles? For example, a professional reference who can also serve as a professional reference and an employer reference? I understand the risks of more references = more opportunity to be tubed (inadvertently or otherwise) but do you know if SSA looks at a candidate who uses a reference(s) to double-up (or more) negatively? Thanks again, General Friant, Comte de l'Empire I'm not sure which form you looked at... the most recent form did not require work history beyond ten years, not all the way back to bar admission as was done previously. For me, that freed up some former supervisors to serve as references in one of the other categories. Don't double up anywhere. If you have more than one job over the last ten years, sue those supervisors as references there and only there. The questions that have been asked in the past have been posted and reposted here, they may change, but my guess is they won't change completely. It's more important to be sure your references will speak well of you in answering the questions.
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Post by Missundaztood on Mar 17, 2014 13:38:38 GMT -5
My understanding of judicial ethics is that judges definitely are more limited in their ability to act as references. Some exceptions exist such as for a former or current employee. I can only respond from my experience with Article III and US Magistrate Judges (I was the first law clerk to an Article III, back in the day, so when my clerkship ended, I researched about references. And I later was on the panel for the ethics seminar for incoming clerks so more research then.). Some judges have their own self-imposed rules (so you need to ask), but the general rule is that they can responsively answer inquiries for references (i.e., applicant gives potential employer contact info and potential employer does the contacting) but cannot affirmatively give one (e.g., make a call). (Affirmatively writing a letter sometimes is an issue but it does not seem like that is what will be requested of references here.) The bottom line from judge's perspective is always to prevent the appearance of impropriety (i.e., judges don't want to seem like giving a reference is asking for a favor for the potential employer, especially if potential employer could be a party down the road). Just a tip that was passed on to me from judges' staff, when I use judges for references, if the form allows it, I also give the contact information for the judge's JA (judicial administrator, administrative law clerk, etc), in case the request hits the junk folder or is the one usually answering the phone and taking messages. The JA will usually make sure the request gets the judge's attention (e.g., set up the time for the call), ask me if there are any additional issues for the reference (if anything occurred to the judge since our conversation asking for and explaining the purpose of the reference) and will let me know when the reference is complete. Good luck!
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Post by Friant on Mar 17, 2014 14:33:30 GMT -5
Thanks privateatty and observer53 for the responses; upon closer inspection, I see that they will only go back 10 years for supervisors.
What advice do folks have to respond to the request for info for their current employer when you don't want them calling the supervisor? I haven't worked long enough to receive a performance appraisal (I won't receive one until ~July) and I'm unsure if I want them talking to my current supervisor (not for any concerns over my performance but I suspect my Supervisor may not want me leaving for "greener pastures").
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Post by 71stretch on Mar 17, 2014 14:38:41 GMT -5
Thanks privateatty and observer53 for the responses; upon closer inspection, I see that they will only go back 10 years for supervisors. What advice do folks have to respond to the request for info for their current employer when you don't want them calling the supervisor? I haven't worked long enough to receive a performance appraisal (I won't receive one until ~July) and I'm unsure if I want them talking to my current supervisor (not for any concerns over my performance but I suspect my Supervisor may not want me leaving for "greener pastures"). How many jobs have you had in the last ten years? If you have other supervisors in that time frame that can speak well of you, the absence of one you haven't worked for very long may not have much effect. If you don't think you can explain this situation to your supervisor in such a way as to get a positive reference, then check the box.
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Post by northwest on Mar 17, 2014 15:07:40 GMT -5
Here's a link to my very old thread from 2010; I don't know if anyone has more current information about the questions asked. The main point that would still apply is this: there's nothing wrong with giving your references reminders of how long they've known you or any other information that might help them answer questions about you. Of course you don't want to give anyone a script or offend anyone by telling them what to say. But most people will be grateful if you don't force them to rack their memories about you. aljdiscussion.proboards.com/thread/1396/dear-reference-make-certGood luck to all!
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Post by Friant on Mar 17, 2014 15:14:46 GMT -5
Observer53: I'm a military reservist who has been called to active duty several times in the past decade and I work as a civilian for a Military Department; therefore, each time I come back from a tour, I have a different supervisor (though I have the same same job). When I submitted my application for ALJ testing, I was on active duty. I came off orders last summer. I've known my current supervisor for less than 9 months and I don't get a "warm and fuzzy" from that person. If a cert is pulled before this July, and I'm on it, I won't have a written appraisal to supply. I understand there are a lot of "ifs," but I'm trying to be proactive and see what other people have done when they don't want their current supervisor know they may be leaving but don't have a written appraisal to offer up. Maybe my situation is unique (though I doubt it)? If I have to either offer up my current supervisor or a written appraisal, then without an appraisal, I guess I'm stuck biting the bullet and identifying my supervisor.
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Post by sealaw90 on Mar 17, 2014 15:42:27 GMT -5
Observer53: I'm a military reservist who has been called to active duty several times in the past decade and I work as a civilian for a Military Department; therefore, each time I come back from a tour, I have a different supervisor (though I have the same same job). When I submitted my application for ALJ testing, I was on active duty. I came off orders last summer. I've known my current supervisor for less than 9 months and I don't get a "warm and fuzzy" from that person. If a cert is pulled before this July, and I'm on it, I won't have a written appraisal to supply. I understand there are a lot of "ifs," but I'm trying to be proactive and see what other people have done when they don't want their current supervisor know they may be leaving but don't have a written appraisal to offer up. Maybe my situation is unique (though I doubt it)? If I have to either offer up my current supervisor or a written appraisal, then without an appraisal, I guess I'm stuck biting the bullet and identifying my supervisor. Friant, although I am sure you are unique in your own special way, your situation on this Board is not. We've got enough of us 5 and 10 pointers here that many of us have been in your situation before. With that said, you could still be in a tough situation. Let me ask you, have you received an interim appraisal in the past 9 months? Are you close to receiving an interim appraisal? The reason I ask is that I have used my interim appraisal for the same reason - new supervisor, so far, so good, but they would flip out (and possibly tank my annual appraisal) if I said I was applying for another job. Here's the thing - relax. It's March. We haven't even received our 'appeal' email from OPM, let alone notification that you or anybody else is on a new cert. I do not know how well you scored, nor how big your GAL is, so maybe you have good reason to think your name will be on the first cert pulled. I, on the other hand, figure that (like Funky) I did so well that I am right in the middle of the largest camel hump and won't get considered until next year. It's good that you are being proactive, but you might be running up ahead of the cart - don't get trampled by your own excitement in being allowed to run the next half of this marathon. Everything will work out if this is meant to be. Finally, you must have some sort of appraisal to account for your civilian job - regardless of your recalls. Talk to HR and see if you should get an appraisal done to account for the 'missing' blocks of time in your record. If you can't get an appraisal (or are afraid what it might say), then submit the most recent appraisal you have - even if it is from a few years ago and signed by a former supervisor. It's not such a unique situation that you couldn't adequately explain. I hope this helps.
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Post by 71stretch on Mar 17, 2014 15:51:24 GMT -5
Observer53: I'm a military reservist who has been called to active duty several times in the past decade and I work as a civilian for a Military Department; therefore, each time I come back from a tour, I have a different supervisor (though I have the same same job). When I submitted my application for ALJ testing, I was on active duty. I came off orders last summer. I've known my current supervisor for less than 9 months and I don't get a "warm and fuzzy" from that person. If a cert is pulled before this July, and I'm on it, I won't have a written appraisal to supply. I understand there are a lot of "ifs," but I'm trying to be proactive and see what other people have done when they don't want their current supervisor know they may be leaving but don't have a written appraisal to offer up. Maybe my situation is unique (though I doubt it)? If I have to either offer up my current supervisor or a written appraisal, then without an appraisal, I guess I'm stuck biting the bullet and identifying my supervisor. Friant, although I am sure you are unique in your own special way, your situation on this Board is not. We've got enough of us 5 and 10 pointers here that many of us have been in your situation before. With that said, you could still be in a tough situation. Let me ask you, have you received an interim appraisal in the past 9 months? Are you close to receiving an interim appraisal? The reason I ask is that I have used my interim appraisal for the same reason - new supervisor, so far, so good, but they would flip out (and possibly tank my annual appraisal) if I said I was applying for another job. Here's the thing - relax. It's March. We haven't even received our 'appeal' email from OPM, let alone notification that you or anybody else is on a new cert. I do not know how well you scored, nor how big your GAL is, so maybe you have good reason to think your name will be on the first cert pulled. I, on the other hand, figure that (like Funky) I did so well that I am right in the middle of the largest camel hump and won't get considered until next year. It's good that you are being proactive, but you might be running up ahead of the cart - don't get trampled by your own excitement in being allowed to run the next half of this marathon. Everything will work out if this is meant to be. Finally, you must have some sort of appraisal to account for your civilian job - regardless of your recalls. Talk to HR and see if you should get an appraisal done to account for the 'missing' blocks of time in your record. If you can't get an appraisal (or are afraid what it might say), then submit the most recent appraisal you have - even if it is from a few years ago and signed by a former supervisor. It's not such a unique situation that you couldn't adequately explain. I hope this helps. Thank you, sealaw, very much. Friant, I had no idea what your work background was from your first few posts, as you said only that you were an "outsider". I agree with sealaw's advice all around. You do have the option, if you do end up on a cert, to check the box about not contacting your current supervisor. How much contact there is between current and former supervisors could be an issue, but I have no idea whether it is or not. I'll just leave it at that.
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Post by Friant on Mar 17, 2014 15:56:39 GMT -5
Sealaw: thanks for the advice-you've given me some ideas I have considered. Observer: thank you as well; you did help me work through the issue and got another to join in. That's what I like about this board.
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Post by Friant on Mar 17, 2014 16:07:14 GMT -5
Sealaw: meant to say "thanks for giving me some ideas TO CONSIDER."
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Post by cubbietax on Mar 18, 2014 16:16:01 GMT -5
I am struggling with the judicial references. I will have two strong judicial references from my days as a Navy JAG. I am trying to line up a third judicial reference. I currently practice in an Article 1 court where the judges ride a circuit. We rarely see the same judge. The one possible judge I could contact for a judicial reference is a judge for whom I had one very unremarkable trial and one other case where the facts were fully stipulated and the case was decided on briefs alone. I believe that he would say positive things about me, but in the end he does not know me from Job. My question is it more important to check the third judicial reference box or get another reference who knows me much better. Any advice is appreciated.
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Post by 71stretch on Mar 18, 2014 17:02:14 GMT -5
Do you know any other judges (including ALJs) from a context other than appearing in front of them, who are familiar with your work and your abilities, your reputation in the legal community, your work ethic, etc., who could answer the questions? I have not used judges I have appeared in front of.
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References
Mar 19, 2014 13:12:15 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by hopenfaith on Mar 19, 2014 13:12:15 GMT -5
After reviewing the past forms for references, I have a question. Can you use your HOCALJ as a judicial reference? The forms indicate that if you are an SSA insider, you must list the HOCALJ and RCALJ along with you supervisor. This is odd to me because most RCALJs don't know individual employees. I wasn't sure if it would look bad to include a name twice.
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References
Mar 19, 2014 13:19:59 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by mch135 on Mar 19, 2014 13:19:59 GMT -5
In another thread someone actually posted a copy of the form and it said that you couldn't duplicate references. So if you listed someone in your employment history then they could not also be listed in the reference section.
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Post by mamaru on Mar 19, 2014 16:20:29 GMT -5
Anybody else in a position where their supervisor applied, was cut early in the process, and is not happy that underlings have made it to the register? Nervous about this. Ideas on how to handle?
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Post by JudgeRatty on Mar 19, 2014 16:28:13 GMT -5
Anybody else in a position where their supervisor applied, was cut early in the process, and is not happy that underlings have made it to the register? Nervous about this. Ideas on how to handle? Ugh! How about talking with your supervisor directly? Put the cards on the table in a tactful yet careful way? Is there a way to avoid using the sup as a reference? For SSA, I know the RCALJ and HOCALJ are on the form, but a "direct" supervisor? What about using the HOD as the supervisor instead? Not sure but at the very least I would have a talk and see where you stand and not just assume. Tricky situation!
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Post by ok1956 on Mar 19, 2014 16:32:32 GMT -5
Anybody else in a position where their supervisor applied, was cut early in the process, and is not happy that underlings have made it to the register? Nervous about this. Ideas on how to handle? Doesn't the form allow you to omit your current supervisor's phone # if you don't want him/her contacted (at least per the form previously shared in another thread)? Would that ease your concern?
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Post by privateatty on Mar 19, 2014 16:39:04 GMT -5
Anybody else in a position where their supervisor applied, was cut early in the process, and is not happy that underlings have made it to the register? Nervous about this. Ideas on how to handle? mamaru, like sratty said, that is a tough one. I would follow the direct approach. If you get a bad feeling or just plain know that The Ghost of Brutus resides in this Bad Karma Personage, then I'd footnote the application and do a short and plain statement that you expect an unfavorable reference--but I say this with a grain of salt because this is: JMO. The Board has addressed this in the past, for I remember it, but you'll have to do the research here. What I do recall is that apparently Puzzle Palace has dealt with this situation before and has discounted a reference that is the polar opposite of what the others say. That is undoubtedly why they want so many. On the other hand I have seen the knife in the back be a fatal blow--that is why I lean to being proactive. Good luck to you!
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References
Mar 19, 2014 18:57:18 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by westernalj on Mar 19, 2014 18:57:18 GMT -5
I have a prior supervisor who wouldn't intentionally hurt me. But he's irascible and unpredictable. Is it possible to say don't contact him without creating a red flag?
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Post by floss on Mar 19, 2014 19:36:22 GMT -5
Can someone tell me where I can find the ALJ Candidate Personal History form that was posted from 2011? Thanks.
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